For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

[metis]

I did not meen to offend but the original question was posted to Christians so I don't understand what I have done wrong by using all of the scripture, new and old to explain.

The use of both shouldn't offend us and it didn't offend me, but this from a previous post of yours did: Alot of the old testament laws where a shadow of things to come so once those things came and were fulfilled they became obsolete. You practice kosher but your living a shadow... Then you're later posts sometimes doubled-down on that theme.

As I said in a previous post, if you believe that Jesus makes you and others a better person, I'm happy for you and they. But when you pretty much condemn us by saying we're "living a shadow", that's quite insulting, imo. You need not worry about following the Law, but we do, even if we er at times or have some disagreements as to how we may relate to the Law.

 

[metis]

I did answer your question about who they and them were. go back a few post. If the scripture I quoted does not appear in your scriptures the disregard them for it is pointless to use them for explanation.

I'm sorry but somehow I missed that.

BTW, part of that quote we say every Sabbath at services, namely that there's a need to observe the entire Law. However, as I previously said before, the reading of the Law should make one aware that it is not assumed that we can live an entire life without screwing up somewhere, which is where repentance and asking God for forgiveness comes in, which is also specified in Torah.

And this should make sense, right? We don't execute someone for just telling a lie or eating something they shouldn't.

 

[Sleeppy]

I'm sorry but somehow I missed that.

BTW, part of that quote we say every Sabbath at services, namely that there's a need to observe the entire Law. However, as I previously said before, the reading of the Law should make one aware that it is not assumed that we can live an entire life without screwing up somewhere, which is where repentance and asking God for forgiveness comes in, which is also specified in Torah.

And this should make sense, right? We don't execute someone for just telling a lie or eating something they shouldn't.

Did Adam have opportunity to repent, before the death penalty came into effect?

 

[Sleeppy]

I'm sorry but somehow I missed that.

BTW, part of that quote we say every Sabbath at services, namely that there's a need to observe the entire Law. However, as I previously said before, the reading of the Law should make one aware that it is not assumed that we can live an entire life without screwing up somewhere, which is where repentance and asking God for forgiveness comes in, which is also specified in Torah.

And this should make sense, right? We don't execute someone for just telling a lie or eating something they shouldn't.

Did Adam have opportunity to repent, before (or even after) the death penalty came into effect?

 

[metis]

Did Adam have opportunity to repent, before (or even after) the death penalty came into effect?

Ex post facto.

 

[jtartar]

Please note the questions I ask here are not meant to be disrespectful, I am just trying to understand a few things that seem illogical to me.

I have stumbled upon the following few verses, and they confuse me.













Basically, my question to you is this.

After reading these verses, it is pretty clear that Jesus agrees that the Old Testament is the true word of God. He goes even further and says that we should fulfill these laws, and not ignore a single "iota" or "dot" from these laws.

But if that is true, how is it that Christians don't follow all the laws that the Jews do. How is it that they don't do the Sabbath, that they don't keep Kosher, or let the earth rest every 7 years?

Also another thing I was thinking to myself. If we know the Messiah needs to be a descendant of King David, how could it be that Jesus was both a descendant of David, and the son of God.

Again, this is not meant in disrespect, Just honest curiosity as to how your scholars have interpreted these issues.

dantech,
Look back at the scripture Matt 5:18. Notice that the scripture says that not one tiny part of the Law shall pass away UNTIL all things are accomplished. Jesus said that same thing at Luke 24:44.
All things were accomplished by Jesus, that is why he said, just before he died: IT IS FINISHED, John 19:28-30. The Mosaic Law ended with the death of Jesus, and the New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death superseded the Old Mosaic Law Covenant, Luke 22:19,29, 1Cor 11:23-26. The Mosaic Law Covenant was an interim covenant, just until the Messiah would come. This is what was prophesied at Jere 31:31-34, Col 2:13,14, Heb 8:13, Gal 3:23-26.
Jesus came to earth also to remove the Mosaic Law Covenant from the people because it was a law of sin and death, The Law Condemned to death all under it because no one could obey the whole Law Perfectly, It was actually a curse to them, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 3:20, 6:23, 7:6, 2Cor 3:6,7.
The truth is; NO Christian has ever been under the Mosaic Law Covenant, and none of the Jews were after the death of Jesus. With the death of Jesus and especially after Pentecost of 33CE, God turned His blessing onto the Christian Congregation, Christians became God's chosen people!! The powers off the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Christians, Acts chapters 2, 3, 4, tell about the great power that, especially the Apostles were given. Acts 5:32 tells us that none of the Jews that did not turn to Christianity, received the Holy Spirit, Acts 4:12,13.

 

[roger1440]

dantech,
Look back at the scripture Matt 5:18. Notice that the scripture says that not one tiny part of the Law shall pass away UNTIL all things are accomplished. Jesus said that same thing at Luke 24:44.
All things were accomplished by Jesus, that is why he said, just before he died: IT IS FINISHED, John 19:28-30. The Mosaic Law ended with the death of Jesus, and the New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death superseded the Old Mosaic Law Covenant, Luke 22:19,29, 1Cor 11:23-26. The Mosaic Law Covenant was an interim covenant, just until the Messiah would come. This is what was prophesied at Jere 31:31-34, Col 2:13,14, Heb 8:13, Gal 3:23-26.
Jesus came to earth also to remove the Mosaic Law Covenant from the people because it was a law of sin and death, The Law Condemned to death all under it because no one could obey the whole Law Perfectly, It was actually a curse to them, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 3:20, 6:23, 7:6, 2Cor 3:6,7.
The truth is; NO Christian has ever been under the Mosaic Law Covenant, and none of the Jews were after the death of Jesus. With the death of Jesus and especially after Pentecost of 33CE, God turned His blessing onto the Christian Congregation, Christians became God's chosen people!! The powers off the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Christians, Acts chapters 2, 3, 4, tell about the great power that, especially the Apostles were given. Acts 5:32 tells us that none of the Jews that did not turn to Christianity, received the Holy Spirit, Acts 4:12,13.

Indirectly what you are saying is that Jews do not know how to interpret their own scripture, they need a Gentile to explain it to them.

 

[metis]

dantech,
Look back at the scripture Matt 5:18. Notice that the scripture says that not one tiny part of the Law shall pass away UNTIL all things are accomplished. Jesus said that same thing at Luke 24:44.
All things were accomplished by Jesus, that is why he said, just before he died: IT IS FINISHED, John 19:28-30. The Mosaic Law ended with the death of Jesus, and the New Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death superseded the Old Mosaic Law Covenant, Luke 22:19,29, 1Cor 11:23-26. The Mosaic Law Covenant was an interim covenant, just until the Messiah would come. This is what was prophesied at Jere 31:31-34, Col 2:13,14, Heb 8:13, Gal 3:23-26.
Jesus came to earth also to remove the Mosaic Law Covenant from the people because it was a law of sin and death, The Law Condemned to death all under it because no one could obey the whole Law Perfectly, It was actually a curse to them, Gal 3:10-14, Rom 3:20, 6:23, 7:6, 2Cor 3:6,7.
The truth is; NO Christian has ever been under the Mosaic Law Covenant, and none of the Jews were after the death of Jesus. With the death of Jesus and especially after Pentecost of 33CE, God turned His blessing onto the Christian Congregation, Christians became God's chosen people!! The powers off the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Christians, Acts chapters 2, 3, 4, tell about the great power that, especially the Apostles were given. Acts 5:32 tells us that none of the Jews that did not turn to Christianity, received the Holy Spirit, Acts 4:12,13.

Well,:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

and:

Deuteronomy 42): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."

 

[metis]

Indirectly what you are saying is that Jews do not know how to interpret their own scripture, they need a Gentile to explain it to them.

Thank you.

 

[dantech]

Metis, you got it? Let me know when you're fed up and want me to take over

 

[Tumah]

Thank you.

Metis, you got it? Let me know when you're fed up and want me to take over

I think you're both missing the point.

The gospel authors have more credibility than G-d does.

 

[metis]

Metis, you got it? Let me know when you're fed up and want me to take over

I am getting tired. :sleep:

 

[Sleeppy]

Well,:

Genesis 17:[7] And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

Genesis 17:[13] both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:[9] Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations,

Deuteronomy 29:[12] that you may enter into the sworn covenant of the LORD your God, which the LORD your God makes with you this day;
[13] that he may establish you this day as his people, and that he may be your God, as he promised you, and as he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

Psalms 89:[34] I will not violate my covenant,
or alter the word that went forth from my lips.

Psalms 105:[8] He is mindful of his covenant for ever,
of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations,

Isaiah 44:[21] Remember these things, O Jacob,
and Israel, for you are my servant;
I formed you, you are my servant;
O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:[17] But Israel is saved by the LORD
with everlasting salvation;
you shall not be put to shame or confounded
to all eternity.

Isaiah 52:[1] Awake, awake,
put on your strength, O Zion;
put on your beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city;
for there shall no more come into you
the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Isaiah 59:[20] "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.
[21] "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

Isaiah 66:[22] "For as the new heavens and the new earth
which I will make
shall remain before me, says the LORD;
so shall your descendants and your name remain.

and:

Deuteronomy 42): "your G-d…shall not add to what I have commanded you or subtract."

Dt. 13(1): "You shall be careful to observe, neither adding to it or subtracting."

Dt. 13(5): "His commandment you shall observe, holding fast to Him alone."

Dt. 29(28): "Concerns us and our descendents forever, that we may carry out all the words of this Law."

Joshua 1(5): "I will not leave or forsake you…(7) observe the entire Law … do not swerve from it."

Psalms 19(8): "The Law of the Lord is perfect… (10) the ordinances of the Lord are true; all of them are just."

Ps. 119(160): "permanence is Your words chief trait, each of Your just ordinances is everlasting."

Isaiah 42(21): "pleased the Lord in His justice to make His Law great and glorious."

Baruch 4(1): "the Law endures forever."

Thank you.

Metis, you got it? Let me know when you're fed up and want me to take over

Metis, will you reiterate your position on the miracles presented in Jewish tradition? How have you, and Dantech, determined that what you quote is completely accurate?

 

[Sleeppy]

I think you're both missing the point.

The gospel authors have more credibility than G-d does.

Did Moses and the Prophets also have more credibility than God? How do you differentiate?

 

[metis]

Metis, will you reiterate your position on the miracles presented in Jewish tradition? How have you, and Dantech, determined that what you quote is completely accurate?

Well, it's from the RSV, which is considered even in Christian circles to be one of the most accurate translations. If you have doubts, let me recommend you look it up.

BTW, let me add that Aquinas definitely noticed this pattern, so his excuse became one of that the Torah is somewhat inaccurate but the "N.T." supposedly got it right. Trouble is, even the messianic predictions weren't fulfilled either, so that became the excuse for pooh-poohing those verses away as well.

 

[metis]

Did Moses and the Prophets also have more credibility than God? How do you differentiate?

If a prophet states something is from God that isn't, then that prophet can be put to death as a "false prophet".

Since what we find in the Tanakh are writings and events that are very often covered by Moses and the prophets, to discard them is to discard the entire Tanakh. But if you discard the Tanakh, then Jesus just becomes some sort of figure that one may view as just being mythological, especially since there are so many references to the Tanakh that are mentioned in the "N.T.".

Therefore, to state or imply that the Tanakh is unreliable, has a Christian who believes that shooting themselves in their own theological foot. IOW, the "N.T." itself becomes terribly unreliable since it both builds on and cites the Tanakh so very often.

 

[Sleeppy]

Well, it's from the RSV, which is considered even in Christian circles to be one of the most accurate translations. If you have doubts, let me recommend you look it up.

BTW, let me add that Aquinas definitely noticed this pattern, so his excuse became one of that the Torah is somewhat inaccurate but the "N.T." supposedly got it right. Trouble is, even the messianic predictions weren't fulfilled either, so that became the excuse for pooh-poohing those verses away as well.

I'm not doubting your translation, but the information itself. How much of what you quote can be determined as truthful information?

 

[Sleeppy]

Therefore, to state or imply that the Tanakh is unreliable, has a Christian who believes that shooting themselves in their own theological foot. IOW, the "N.T." itself becomes terribly unreliable since it both builds on and cites the Tanakh so very often.

If I agree with something you've written here, for instance-- should that guarantee that I agree on everything else you've written in this forum?

 

[metis]

I'm not doubting your translation, but the information itself. How much of what you quote can be determined as truthful information?

Actually, if you've followed even just some of my posts, you'll see that I'm non-theistic, therefore that answers your question in regards to how this affects me-- it doesn't. But it would-- or at least should-- affect any observant Christian since if one just pooh-poohs away anything that doesn't fit a predetermined paradigm, then is their approach really theologically honest?

With the entire Tanakh, the most common pattern deals with both the Covenant and the Law, and essentially every book found within at least partially relates to these two interconnected themes. Get rid of those themes by declaring them to be totally inaccurate, and what is left? And if one does it to the Tanakh, why not the entire "N.T."? How do you know any of it is accurate?

 

[metis]

If I agree with something you've written here, for instance-- should that guarantee that I agree on everything else you've written in this forum?

I can't speak for that as it's all your choice.