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Featured For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Deeje, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Gilgamesh.

    BTW, the Creation Narratives appear to also be a rewrite of another very length Babylonian epic that I read quite a while back, but I can't remember if it had a particular name in common usage.

    Rewriting or restating oral themes from other cultures is very commonplace historically, whereas one society takes what is covered in another society but reworks it to teach their own values and morals. If you want an example of that, go to Wikipedia and type in "Santa Claus" and see how that changed both location and some themes over the centuries.
     
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  2. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Okay, so they didn't have satellite imagery to help out. Still, clouds don't just magically appear. They roll in. And that's if the flood is caused by rain. If it were due to some dam or levy or whatever breaking, you'd hear the rush, the roar, of water.

    And you'd probably die. However, given that Noah supposedly "told the people" ahead of time, even if many didn't listen, it still gave people plenty of time.

    On the other hand, every time we're hit by a hurricane, a storm that with satellites we know about weeks in advance, everyone's all like "I'm a-gonna stay in mah house like mah pappy stayed in this house like his pappy ...."

    I forgot my point. I haven't eaten yet. :p

    This was covered by his family, though.

    Maybe God should've told them directly instead of trusting the message to humans. It'd save a lot of grief in a lot of places in the bible.

    Sea levels change. Middle America used to be a sea way back when. It was less about flooding and more about seas and oceans that no longer exist.

    You'd think he'd at least let the workers stay. If they had to get off the boat, Noah is the worst boss ever. :)

    And let's be honest, the animals would've high-tailed it out of there way before any human. :)

    Well, he hasn't been good at it so far....

    Why would Jesus bother telling a story about two types of afterlives if none of them really existed? Could it be *gasp* an allegory, like when he discusses the days of Noah?

    So, the Lazarus story is just a bunch of bull?

    Only the verses he liked. Please note all the times fellow Jews got on to him about breaking various rules.

    But there are stories in the time of Moses where people were killed for looking for food on the Sabbath.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Of course we know Santa Claus is a modern day, so to speak, fairy story.
    Whereas Gilgamesh goes back 4,000 years where its knowledge comes from a cuneiform text in ancient Nineveh.
    Gilgamesh finds someone who tells him the story about the deluge or flood.
    Like other legends that story is somewhat similar, but he was instructed to tear down a house and build a ship.
    To give up possessions and seek life and take the seed of all living things.
    That man however could Not give or teach Gilgamesh about immortality which Gilgamesh wanted. So, like the rest of us they died.
    The Noah story is Not about the teaching about immortality.
    I think the Sumerian story about King Ziusudra ( Noah's counterpart ) is earlier than Gilgamesh.
    So, to me, the Babylonian story came later on, being influenced by the earlier Sumerian story.
    There is also the Chinese ruler Yu as the conqueror of the Great Flood, etc.
    So, on and on it goes into many transformations from that old Sumerian account.
    ALL the earth-wide legends have some parts of Noah's account, but they teach about immortality.
    Unlike Noah's account, they paint a word picture of immortality, or the illusion of being immortal.
    Thinking they will be more alive at death then before death. Survival after death which is Not what the Bible really teaches but rather that the dead know nothing, Nothing but sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4
     
  4. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You have it backwards. The Noah's Ark myth took their story from other sources. And some have immortality as a goal, but that is a common goal in many different myths.
     
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  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me how does ' common ' mean scriptural. There is No common goal immortality myth in Noah's Flood.
    Just as Adam was Not immortal there is No creation that was created with immortality. That is a non-biblical teaching.
    Even angels were created as mortals, that is why Jesus can will destroy Satan according to Hebrews 2:14 B.
    If angels were immortal they could Not be destroyed. Mortal creation is Not death proof.
    Noah's account is about saving, delivering, rescuing mortal creation.
    That is in connection to the humble meek people inheriting (Not Heaven) but inheriting the Earth.
    When people hear the words " everlasting life " right away think of being more alive at death than before death.
    Whereas, the Bible's everlasting life is mostly connected to mortal life on Earth, mortals living forever on Earth.
    Everlasting life on Earth as was offered to mortal Adam before his downfall. Mortal Adam could live forever on Earth as long as he did Not break God's Law. At death mortal Adam simply went back to where he started. Not to life but to the ground. Since we are innocent of what mortal Adam did, through Jesus, most people are offered everlasting life on Earth. The Noah story is about: Earth. Righteous people offered Earth as a lasting forever home.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Remember those un-faithful Jews were more concerned about the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law.
    Their traditions or customs were in vain according to Matthew 15:9
    What verses do you have in mind about people being killed for looking for food on the Sabbath.

    No need to *gasp* Kelly, because Jesus did Not teach ' afterlife ' because ' afterlife ' implies being more alive at death than before death. It implies that a person is really death proofed. A person is immortal.
    Jesus taught ' resurrection '. ALL the people Jesus resurrected were resurrected back to healthy physical life on Earth. So, it is ' resurrection ' that really exists. Lazarus had a physical resurrection as per John 11:11-14.

    The called mortal people like those of Luke 22:28-30 will have a ' heavenly ' resurrection.
    That have a first or earlier resurrection as per Revelation 20:6; Revelation 5:9-10; Revelation 2:10.
    Whereas the majority of people will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection which will take place ( future tense ) during Jesus' 1,000-year rule over Earth. That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection..... ALL who died before Jesus died (John 3:13) can have a healthy physical resurrection. That includes people like King David according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34; besides all the people named in the 11th chapter of Hebrews. None of them as of yet have seen the fulfillment of the promise.
    That is God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families of Earth will be blessed, and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed. Blessed with the benefit of healing for earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2. Genesis 12:3; 22:18.
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You are terribly confused. "scriptural" is special only to you. And you keep referring to other failures of the Bible. That is no way to debate. That is shooting yourself in the foot.

    The Noah's Ark story is not "Noah's Account" any more than the stories of Paul Bunyan and Babe the Great Blue Ox are Paul Bunyan's Account.

    Once again let's leave the rest of the myths of the Bible out of it for now. Let's focus on just the Noah's Ark myth and why we know it never happened.
     
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  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    That's where your wrong, angels were created with immortality and only God can destroy them,
    Your body dies, but your spirit that's inside of your body, does not die, your spirit returns back to God who gave it. And your body returns back to the dust of the earth from where it was made from.

    Why else do you think Christ Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 --"And fear not them which kill the body; but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell,

    Adam and Eve were created with immortality, until they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But only their body of flesh died and returned back to the dust of the earth from where it came from and their spirit returns back to God who gave it.

    Before God changed Lucifer name to Satan the serpent, devil, Lucifer was a covering Cherub that stood over the Mercy Seat before the Throne of God's.
    Ezekiel 28:14-18.

    Then when Lucifer Rebelled against God, Then God changed Lucifer name to Satan the Serpent,devil, As for Satan he's already been Judge and sentence to be Destroyed.
    That's why Satan is called The son of perdition, because Satan has already been Judge sentence to destruction ( destroyed)
    Because of his Rebellion against God.

    Therefore when people say things against God, they are just as bad as Satan. And are themselves standing in rebillion against God themselves and are facing totally destruction ( destroyed ) themselves.

    As it is written in Hebrews 10:31 --"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
     
    #388 Faithofchristian, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  9. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It actually predates the writing of Genesis by about 1000 years, according to the experts on this. And you are correct in that the story appears to have been originally Sumerian as that area later merged to form the Babylonian Empire.

    A rule-of-thumb is that in most cases it is the more dominant society that tends to have a greater influence on a much smaller one, and the Babylonian Empire and eretz Israel fit that scenario. But by doing as such, this in no way diminishes the Noah account as it's the morals and values that are most important. Therefore, whether there was a Noah and an ark makes not one iota of difference today.

    Exactly, which is why we didn't copy it but chose to rewrite it to reflect our different morals and values-- at least this is what the evidence suggests.
     
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  10. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Not that Lazarus, the one from the parable. There was the good afterlife and the not so great afterlife.

    Everyone, even gods, are immortal until they die. :)
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    You are just to funny. Had you any knowledge about things, unto which you show yourself of not having.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find the immortal are death proof, thus the immortal can Not die.
    But 'everlasting life' as was offered to Adam and Eve was on condition.
    There are No conditions placed on the immortal.
    The everlasting life offered to A&E ( and by way of extension us ) is to live forever on Earth only if we keep God's Law.

    Remember the Lazarus and the un-named rich man of Luke 16 is a story ( parable / illustration ) Not real.
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find it an interesting perspective about the ' rule-of-thumb ' in connection to the more dominant society having greater influence....... because ancient Babylon is given that credit, so to speak, at Genesis 10.
    As the people migrated away from ancient Babylon they took with them their ideas and practices and spread them world wide into a greater Babylon or Babylon the Great. That to me is why we see so many similar overlapping ideas and practices in today's religious world.

    As to 'whether there was a Noah and his Ark ' making Not one iota of difference today ' except ' that it was important for Jesus to mention Noah at Matthew 24:37-39. As the end came as a sudden surprise in Noah's day, then the end of this world of badness will also come by surprise. Without warning the powers that be will suddenly turn on the religious world even starting with Christendom.
     
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  14. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Angels are mortal. Satan is an angel. Jesus will destroy mortal Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
    The immortal are death proof. The immortal can Not die. - John 5:26

    As a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere, one's spirit goes back to God in the sense that any future life prospects now lies in God's hands. Otherwise there would be No need for a resurrection - Revelation 1:18.

    Yes, agree with Jesus that the soul can be destroyed ( KJV used the English word hell for Gehenna )
    Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things where destroyed forever Not burning forever.
    Gehenna is Not biblical hell. Biblical hell is where dead Jesus went the day he died- Acts of the Apostles 2:27.
    Jesus taught un-conscious sleep (Not pain) in death at John 11:11-14. (Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4 )
    Gospel writer Luke also wrote at Acts of the Apostles 3:23 the soul can be destroyed.
    Ezekiel 18:4,20 also believed the soul that sins dies, thus showing the soul is Not death proof / immortal.
     
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  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Are you freaking kidding me, Angels are not mortal, But immortal, mankind is mortal. Thereby we die.
    Angels are immortal that do not die.

    Did not Jesus say in speaking about the mortal body and the immortal soul.

    "And fear not them, which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" Matthew 10:28.

    Therefore your body is mortal, subject to die.
    Your soul is not mortal, but immortal, subject to God to be destroyed.

    People can kill the body, but can not kill your soul, because it's immortal, That only God can destroy your soul in hell.

    "And fear not them which kill the body.
    Because your body is mortal subject to die.

    But are not able to kill the soul.
    Because your soul is immortal, that can not die.
    But rather fear him ( God ) which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Therefore only God has the power to destroy the soul.
    Your soul can not die, until God destroy's your soul.
     
  16. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Adam and Eve was not mortal, but immortal.

    only until Eve and Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, only then was the sentence of death pronounced on them. Only then did Adam and Eve become mortal. Subject to die.

    If Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would not haved died.
    It was only after they took of the tree of knowledge that they became mortal, subject to die.
    For God did tell Adam and Eve that in the day, that they eat of the tree of knowledge, that they would die. Thereby becoming mortal, subject to die.

    Therefore, if Adam and Eve had not eaten of the tree of knowledge, they would not haved died
    .
    It was when Adam and Eve took of the tree of knowledge and did eat. That then they became mortal, subject to die.
     
    #396 Faithofchristian, Dec 15, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Yep.

    It's impossible to say today whether Jesus was elaborating on the allegory while realizing that it was not a real historical event or whether he mistakenly thought it was a real historical event. Some see Jesus as knowing everything, but the gospels do not say that he did and, as a matter of fact, on numerous occasions he said there were things he didn't know, such as exactly when the end of times would be or exactly where Lazarus was laid to rest.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Sounds to me as if you are saying that angel Satan is death proof, immortal.
    I wonder how that can be because Jesus destroys Satan as per Hebrews 2:14 B.
    Jesus deals Satan the death wound ( Genesis 3:15; Romans 16:20 ) so Satan does die.
    Satan ends up in ' second death ' as per Revelation 21:8.

    How can the soul be immortal when Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20 says the soul that sins dies.
    I wonder what Luke was saying at Acts of the Apostles 3:23 about the soul.
    Adam, according to Genesis 2:7, was a living soul.
    Adam did Not have life before God breathed the breath of life into lifeless Adam
    Genesis 2:7 does Not say that Adam came to posses a soul.
    Genesis 2:7 does Not say that Adam came to have a soul, rather Adam was a soul.
    At death sinner Adam become a dead soul or a lifeless soul.
    Genesis 3:19 simply states that Adam ' returned ' to the dust.....
    A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
    So, to me ALL of Adam returned or went back to where he started the dust of the ground.

    I wonder how your local school's English teacher would define or understand the word immortal.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I agree if A&E had Not eaten from the forbidden tree they would have 'everlasting life' on Earth.
    To me, God offered Adam ' everlasting life ' on Earth on condition of obedience to the law.
    I find God did forewarn at Genesis 2:17 that breaking the law would end up in their death.
    So, from the very beginning Adam knew if he broke the law he would die.
    There is nothing in Genesis stating that Adam went from immortal (death proofed) to later becoming mortal.

    God did give Jesus immortality according to John 5:26, and Jesus offers immortality to those of Luke 22:28-30.
    So, I will agree that there are mortals ( in Heaven and on Earth ) who are granted to become immortal.
    An immortal creation is self contained. Adam ( and us ) are always dependant on outside forces, such as eating and breathing,etc. Prior to his sinning if Adam held his breath or stopped eating Adam would have died.
    Those granted immortality will have life from within and can Not be destroyed, can Not die.
    But I find No where in Scripture of someone immortal being changed into being mortal.

    Angelic Satan, although he does Not eat and drink and breath like us, he was still subject to obeying his God.
    Satan failed miserably in showing and having love for his God.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    We do know that the religious leaders did conspire to put the resurrected Lazarus back to death according to John 11:53; John 12:10-11. Seems as if they could have succeeded because there is No mention of Lazarus being at Jesus death.
    To me what matters is Not where they buried Lazarus, but confident that Lazarus' does gain resurrected eternal life.

    I agree with Matthew 24:36 that No man knows the day or hour including Jesus.
    However, at the above verses at Matthew 24:32-33 Jesus does tell us when the ' season ' (last days of badness on Earth) are near, or at hand before the time of Matthew 25:31-33,37 comes on Earth.
    Matthew chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21 have both a minor fulfillment and a MAJOR fulfillment.
    The minor fulfillment came in the year 70 when the Romans armies destroyed un-faithful Jerusalem.
    The MAJOR fulfillment is for our day or time frame. One reason is: because of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14 is Now being done on a vast international scale as never before in history. Even people living in remote areas of Earth can Now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages. In other words, we are at the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8, thus we are also approaching the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, "Peace and Security" as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, is the one who will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
     
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