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For Christians. Was the flood real or just a myth?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Amazing how in some instances this all-powerful God can do ANYTHING and in others there appears to be so many restrictions on what He can do. It's almost as if this God changes, depending on what point believers are attempting to make.
Jehovah wants His worshippers to show their faith, through their obedience: their works. That behavior on God’s part is revealed all throughout the Scriptures. And then, when God rewards the doer, this results in their faith increasing! When you work hard for something, it usually makes that ‘something’ more valuable to you.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Jehovah wants His worshippers to show their faith, through their obedience: their works. That behavior on God’s part is revealed all throughout the Scriptures. And then, when God rewards the doer, this results in their faith increasing! When you work hard for something, it usually makes that ‘something’ more valuable to you.


If you say so. But that doesn't change the reality that in some circumstances believers claim that God is all-powerful and that in others His capabilities are severely restricted. It's exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to hear if the story was just all made up and people were just desperately trying to justify it as true.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
If you say so. But that doesn't change the reality that in some circumstances believers claim that God is all-powerful and that in others His capabilities are severely restricted. It's exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to hear if the story was just all made up and people were just desperately trying to justify it as true.
Hey, hope you're doing well.

Can you give me some examples? Events in the Bible, I mean?

Something akin to what you're saying, I can think of, is when Jesus said he tried to perform miracles -- in Galilee, I think? -- but he couldn't, because they didn't put any faith in him, and he marveled at their lack of faith. So he was inhibited, directly because of their deficiency!

Another account.... remember the woman who had a blood-flow problem? Jesus specifically said that the reason she was cured, wasn't the power that he received from God, but it was 'her faith that made her well.' Because of that, she received the power to cure her.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Hey, hope you're doing well.

Can you give me some examples? Events in the Bible, I mean?

Something akin to what you're saying, I can think of, is when Jesus said he tried to perform miracles -- in Galilee, I think? -- but he couldn't, because they didn't put any faith in him, and he marveled at their lack of faith. So he was inhibited, directly because of their deficiency!

Another account.... remember the woman who had a blood-flow problem? Jesus specifically said that the reason she was cured, wasn't the power that he received from God, but it was 'her faith that made her well.' Because of that, she received the power to cure her.


Oh, let's take this idea of 'free will' for example. We have an all-powerful all-knowing creator God who can grant people the gift of life and can take it away at any time. He didn't want to create mindless automatons, so He gave people free will... the ability to choose evil over good. Okay, fine so far.

But then we have one of His creations who starts to rape and murder little children. Now I understand that God can't snap his metaphorical fingers and simply eliminate this person's desire to rape and murder. That would be a violation of the free will that he gave this person to begin with. Yet for some reason, even after the third or maybe even fourth victim, something about having given this person free will ALSO prevents God from giving this person a heart attack. Why? Why is this all powerful God prevented from taking back the gift of life that He gave this rapist/murderer? For some reason that theists can't seem to explain, giving this person free will also meant allowing him/her to rape and murder a dozen different innocent children before he/she finally dies at age 92. How does taking back this person's gift of life interfere with their ability to exercise free will?

So here we have an all-powerful God that is apparently powerless to protect innocent little children from violent rape and murder.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Oh, let's take this idea of 'free will' for example. We have an all-powerful all-knowing creator God who can grant people the gift of life and can take it away at any time. He didn't want to create mindless automatons, so He gave people free will... the ability to choose evil over good. Okay, fine so far.

But then we have one of His creations who starts to rape and murder little children. Now I understand that God can't snap his metaphorical fingers and simply eliminate this person's desire to rape and murder. That would be a violation of the free will that he gave this person to begin with. Yet for some reason, even after the third or maybe even fourth victim, something about having given this person free will ALSO prevents God from giving this person a heart attack. Why? Why is this all powerful God prevented from taking back the gift of life that He gave this rapist/murderer? For some reason that theists can't seem to explain, giving this person free will also meant allowing him/her to rape and murder a dozen different innocent children before he/she finally dies at age 92. How does taking back this person's gift of life interfere with their ability to exercise free will?

So here we have an all-powerful God that is apparently powerless to protect innocent little children from violent rape and murder.
I apologize for not seeing this sooner, I actually forgot about this thread, and apparently overlooked the notification alerting me to your response.

These are good questions! The answer lies in understanding the issues raised in Genesis 3, when Adam chose to rebel. The main issue brought to the fore was regarding God's sovereignty -- his right to rule, the right to tell His children what and what not to do.

Here are two articles that explain and detail it better than I can:

Why Does the Hearer of Prayer Allow Suffering? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

&

Why Does God Allow Suffering? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Remember that, right now, God's will isn't being done on the Earth today. That's why Jesus taught us to pray for it. -- Matthew 6:9-10.

And when the Resurrection occurs (John 5:28-29), the "former things will not be called to mind." -- Isaiah 65:17.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Hey, @Deeje!
Some skeptics might ask: ‘How could such a thing happen? And how could all those animals coexist peacefully in a confined space?’ Consider this: Is it really beyond the power of the Creator of the universe to control his animal creations, even render them tame and docile if needed?

As you know, the Bible even says this will happen, rendering the animals tame! At Isaiah 11:6-9. (Just wanted to add the Scripture.) As if the Creator of the universe couldn't control animal behavior! Lol.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I apologize for not seeing this sooner, I actually forgot about this thread, and apparently overlooked the notification alerting me to your response.

These are good questions! The answer lies in understanding the issues raised in Genesis 3, when Adam chose to rebel. The main issue brought to the fore was regarding God's sovereignty -- his right to rule, the right to tell His children what and what not to do.

Here are two articles that explain and detail it better than I can:

Why Does the Hearer of Prayer Allow Suffering? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

&

Why Does God Allow Suffering? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Remember that, right now, God's will isn't being done on the Earth today. That's why Jesus taught us to pray for it. -- Matthew 6:9-10.

And when the Resurrection occurs (John 5:28-29), the "former things will not be called to mind." -- Isaiah 65:17.

Sorry, but your links provided no answers. It basically said that God originally created Adam and Eve perfectly and it was their willingness to defy God that made them imperfect and capable of sin. That doesn't explain why God is now incapable of taking back the gift of life that he has given his creations whenever He so desires. What about A&E sinning makes it impossible for God to end the life of a child rapist who has proven time and again that he is going to continue to harm innocent children for as long as he lives? Why is this ALL powerful God so limited in what He can do?

And aside from that, I question whether or not God actually did create A&E PERFECTLY to begin with. In my opinion a perfect being wouldn't have been created so gullible that they'd fall for the lies of a talking snake. How could they be perfect if they didn't even understand the concept of lies and deception? Furthermore, why would an all-knowing God have placed a deceitful talking snake in Eden to begin with, especially when He knew that He'd created A&E without any knowledge of lies of deception? It's almost as if God PLANNED to deceive A&E so that they would sin in the first place. In fact, an ALL-KNOWING God would have known the instant he created A&E that they were going to be deceived by his talking snake.

If you are ALL-powerful and ALL-knowing, you really can't play the 'it was out of my control' card.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
That doesn't explain why God is now incapable of taking back the gift of life that he has given his creations whenever He so desires. What about A&E sinning makes it impossible for God to end the life of a child rapist who has proven time and again that he is going to continue to harm innocent children for as long as he lives? Why is this ALL powerful God so limited in what He can do?

Yes, the articles did answer the subject of why God doesn’t intervene but allows bad things to happen, for now.

And aside from that, I question whether or not God actually did create A&E PERFECTLY to begin with.

Come on, let’s get to how you really feel.....from your reply, I gather that you don’t believe God did any creating at all, that life and all reality originated through a series of fortunate accidents, right?

Someone with a “questioning mind” would at least want to reason on answers given to important questions.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Sorry, but your links provided no answers. It basically said that God originally created Adam and Eve perfectly and it was their willingness to defy God that made them imperfect and capable of sin. That doesn't explain why God is now incapable of taking back the gift of life that he has given his creations whenever He so desires. What about A&E sinning makes it impossible for God to end the life of a child rapist who has proven time and again that he is going to continue to harm innocent children for as long as he lives? Why is this ALL powerful God so limited in what He can do?

And aside from that, I question whether or not God actually did create A&E PERFECTLY to begin with. In my opinion a perfect being wouldn't have been created so gullible that they'd fall for the lies of a talking snake. How could they be perfect if they didn't even understand the concept of lies and deception? Furthermore, why would an all-knowing God have placed a deceitful talking snake in Eden to begin with, especially when He knew that He'd created A&E without any knowledge of lies of deception? It's almost as if God PLANNED to deceive A&E so that they would sin in the first place. In fact, an ALL-KNOWING God would have known the instant he created A&E that they were going to be deceived by his talking snake.

If you are ALL-powerful and ALL-knowing, you really can't play the 'it was out of my control' card.

Where does omniscience, ever imply “knowing the future actions of people who have free will”?

Knowing everything past and present, yes....but future actions?

Maneuvering circumstances to achieve desired future results is one thing. But He rarely does that, allowing humans to rule themselves, for the time being. (It’s about to end, thank goodness. In these times we live, especially in underdeveloped countries, Ecclesiastes 8:9 is accurate commentary.)

If God knew the future, how could He say He “was hurt” by the actions of His people? Or regretted how situations turned out? He’d be a sado-masochist!

Foreknowledge, Foreordination — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

So apparently, your view of God is faulty, not His behavior.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Yes, the articles did answer the subject of why God doesn’t intervene but allows bad things to happen, for now.



Come on, let’s get to how you really feel.....from your reply, I gather that you don’t believe God did any creating at all, that life and all reality originated through a series of fortunate accidents, right?

Someone with a “questioning mind” would at least want to reason on answers given to important questions.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Yes, the articles did answer the subject of why God doesn’t intervene but allows bad things to happen, for now.



Come on, let’s get to how you really feel.....from your reply, I gather that you don’t believe God did any creating at all, that life and all reality originated through a series of fortunate accidents, right?

Someone with a “questioning mind” would at least want to reason on answers given to important questions.

"Yes, the articles did answer the subject of why God doesn’t intervene but allows bad things to happen, for now."

Not that I could see. Perhaps you could explain it to me.

"Come on, let’s get to how you really feel.....from your reply, I gather that you don’t believe God did any creating at all, that life and all reality originated through a series of fortunate accidents, right?"

Not exactly sure how you jumped to those unfounded conclusions. All I've done is point out that claims that God created A&E PERFECTLY don't hold up to even cursory examination. If you don't have an argument to counter what I've said, just say so. Don't go making claims about knowing what I believe as far as the origination of life and reality are concerned.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Where does omniscience, ever imply “knowing the future actions of people who have free will”?

Knowing everything past and present, yes....but future actions?

Maneuvering circumstances to achieve desired future results is one thing. But He rarely does that, allowing humans to rule themselves, for the time being. (It’s about to end, thank goodness. In these times we live, especially in underdeveloped countries, Ecclesiastes 8:9 is accurate commentary.)

If God knew the future, how could He say He “was hurt” by the actions of His people? Or regretted how situations turned out? He’d be a sado-masochist!

Foreknowledge, Foreordination — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

So apparently, your view of God is faulty, not His behavior.

Perhaps I'm mistaken as to your beliefs about God, but virtually all other Christians I've spoken with indicate to me that they believe that the God of the bible exists beyond time and space. For a being that exists beyond time there is no difference between past present or future. The very notion that such a being could be 'hurt' or 'surprised' by the actions of his creations is ludicrous. If however you claim that God does NOT exist beyond time and space then I have to ask, at what time did God come into existence?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The very notion that such a being could be 'hurt' or 'surprised' by the actions of his creations is ludicrous. If however you claim that God does NOT exist beyond time and space then I have to ask, at what time did God come into existence?

The Creator is the only being in the Bible who is described as having a infinite past as well as an infinite future. He alone is "King of Eternity".

The problem with assuming to know what others believe without asking is that you seldom address anything relevant to their beliefs.

A & E were created perfect...without defect. How do we know? Because of what God said right after bringing them into existence.

Genesis 1:31..... "After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day."

Every other "day" in creation, God said that everything up to that point was "good", but after the creation of humans he was moved to improve on that statement by saying "everything he had made......was very good." What do you think "very good" means when attributed to an all powerful Creator?

It means that God was declaring that there was no defect in his creation at all.

In Deuteronomy 32:4 it says....."The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice." Perfection is all he can produce.

The tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" was a small test of man's obedience and respect for what God placed in his own jurisdiction.
The test was small but the penalty was huge. That should have been enough to show them the seriousness of disobedience and what it would lead to.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The Creator is the only being in the Bible who is described as having a infinite past as well as an infinite future. He alone is "King of Eternity".

The problem with assuming to know what others believe without asking is that you seldom address anything relevant to their beliefs.

A & E were created perfect...without defect. How do we know? Because of what God said right after bringing them into existence.

Genesis 1:31..... "After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day."

Every other "day" in creation, God said that everything up to that point was "good", but after the creation of humans he was moved to improve on that statement by saying "everything he had made......was very good." What do you think "very good" means when attributed to an all powerful Creator?

It means that God was declaring that there was no defect in his creation at all.

In Deuteronomy 32:4 it says....."The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice." Perfection is all he can produce.

The tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" was a small test of man's obedience and respect for what God placed in his own jurisdiction.
The test was small but the penalty was huge. That should have been enough to show them the seriousness of disobedience and what it would lead to.

Again, there is nothing PERFECT about someone who is created extremely naive and gullible. And someone who doesn't know the difference between the truth and a lie is NOT perfect. Anyone who can be deceived by a talking snake into doing the one thing that the creator told then not to do is NOT a perfect being. How can you say that people so obviously flawed are perfect?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Again, there is nothing PERFECT about someone who is created extremely naive and gullible. And someone who doesn't know the difference between the truth and a lie is NOT perfect. Anyone who can be deceived by a talking snake into doing the one thing that the creator told then not to do is NOT a perfect being. How can you say that people so obviously flawed are perfect?

Who said that humans were created naive or gullible? Disobedience does not require either of those things. There is something called trust....and that is what they should have displayed towards their Creator. They, as beings without defect, "made in God's image", knew what they were doing and chose to disobey a direct command, the only one with the death penalty attached to it. The flaw was in not adhering to the rules thinking that somehow the penalty didn't apply. The devil is a master deceiver and chose the less experienced of the two. She believed him when he said they wouldn't die. But why?

All I've done is point out that claims that God created A&E PERFECTLY don't hold up to even cursory examination. If you don't have an argument to counter what I've said, just say so

It boils down to understanding the issues raised in Eden. A rebel spirit made claims and accusations about the Creator and his motives to the woman and she believed him. When she tried to rope her husband into the act, he could have declined, but chose instead to throw in his lot with her. "Divide and conquer" works for the devil and has for millennia. Adam was the real target of his actions.

The devil's claims basically made God out to be a liar and keeping something from his children that they had a right to know and experience.
Was that true? Did God lie about the penalty? Would they die "on the day" that they ate from that fruit?
Was the Creator the rightful Sovereign over all his intelligent creation both here on earth and in heaven? Does he have the right to set reasonable limits to the freedom that he granted them?
Does he have the right to keep something to himself if it means protection?
Would a knowledge of good and evil benefit mankind in any way?

There was only one way to find out....not that God didn't know what the outcome would inevitably be, but that humans would have to experience the consequences of the own actions and "reap what they had sown". God stepped out of the picture and allowed the rebellious humans and the angels to learn the hard lessons of independent thinking in opposition to their Maker. God only intervened when his purpose was threatened in some way. His intervention was only to keep his purpose on track. Man would be allowed to try and rule himself without God intervening and see if the devil's claims turned out to be true.

If God were to lessen the impact of their actions, then he would be counteracting the very reason for allowing humans to see the folly of following their own ideas under the influence of the devil behind the scenes. (1 John 5:19) This object lesson will never be forgotten and will form the basis to judge any rebel in the future, both in heaven and on earth. As long as free will exists, then it can be exercised in a wrong way. We have seen where man's governance has taken us....look at the state of the world! What have we learned? :shrug:
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
The jury seems to be out on this question among those who identify as Christians.....so was the flood a real event or was it just a dramatized myth with a message?

God commanded Noah: “Make for yourself an ark out of wood of a resinous tree.”Genesis 6:14.

Some might be familiar with children's storybook illustrations like this...

images


But what is exactly is an ark?

This ark was not a ship, as some assume. It had neither bow nor stern, keel nor rudder—no bends or curves. It was basically a great chest, or box.

More like this....

images


God gave Noah the precise dimensions of the ark, some details regarding its design, and directions to coat it inside and out with tar. And he told Noah why: “Here I am bringing the deluge of waters upon the earth . . . Everything that is in the earth will expire.” However, Jehovah gave this direction to Noah: “You must go into the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you.” Noah was also to bring representatives of all kinds of animals. Only those aboard the ark could survive the coming Deluge!—Genesis 6:17-20.

Have we ever stopped to imagine the size of this vessel?
This replica built to Biblical specifications gives us some idea....

images


Noah faced a gigantic task. This ark was to be enormous—some 437 feet (133 m) long, 73 feet (22 m) wide, and 44 feet (13 m) tall. It was far larger than the largest seagoing wooden ships built even in modern times. Did Noah back off from this assignment, complain about its challenges, or alter the details to make it easier on himself? The Bible answers: “Noah proceeded to do according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so.”Genesis 6:22.

The work took decades, perhaps 40 to 50 years. There were trees to fell, logs to haul, and beams to hew, shape, and join. The ark was to have three stories, or decks, a number of compartments, and a door in the side. Evidently, there were windows along the top, as well as a roof that likely peaked in the middle with a slight pitch so that water would run off.—Genesis 6:14-16.

6d6c1ffd3012dbce5f777c610a37e196--worship-ideas-cats.jpg


On completion of this assignment God told Noah....“Go, you and all your household, into the ark.” At the same time, God told Noah to take all the varieties of animals into the ark—by sevens in the case of the clean ones, fit for sacrificial use, and the rest by twos.—Genesis 7:1-3.

It is assumed by many that just two of every animas that God brought to Noah went on board the ark, but animals designated as "clean" (i.e. suitable for sacrifice and later for food) were taken in by sevens. That was three breeding pairs and one for sacrifice (which is what Noah did upon disembarking from the ark to thank his God for preserving his family alive through such a cataclysmic event.)

It must have been an unforgettable sight. From the horizon they streamed in by the hundreds—walking, flying, crawling, waddling, lumbering—all in a dizzying variety of sizes, shapes, and dispositions. We need not imagine poor Noah trying to corral, wrangle, or somehow cajole all those wild animals into entering the confined space of the ark. The account says that “they went in . . . to Noah inside the ark.”Genesis 7:9.

And since dinosaurs were long extinct before man came on the scene, there were no dinosaurs on the ark.

Some skeptics might ask: ‘How could such a thing happen? And how could all those animals coexist peacefully in a confined space?’ Consider this: Is it really beyond the power of the Creator of the universe to control his animal creations, even render them tame and docile if needed? Remember, Jehovah is the God who parted the Red Sea and made the sun stand still. Could he not carry out every event described in Noah’s account?

Excerpts from 2013 WATCHTOWER. Pics from Google
He was apparently not able to control his human creations, which are also a member of the animal kingdom. And such a large wooden vessel, whether a box or a ship, would be unseaworthy. Notice that the "ark replica" was built on dry land and is actually a building which rests on a foundation.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
He was apparently able to control his human creations, which are also a member of the animal kingdom. And such a large wooden vessel, whether a box or a ship, would be unseaworthy. Notice that the "ark replica" was built on dry land and is actually a building which rests on a foundation.

It matters little whether atheists believe that Noah's ark was real. This vessel was not a ship...it had neither bow nor stern and no rudder. It was not designed to navigate, but only to float. The space on board could well have accommodated all the species God brought to Noah for preservation. The majority were quite small in size.


See also....Noah’s Ark and Naval Architecture — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

It was incredibly sea worthy and according to ship-builders, this ratio represents an advanced knowledge of ship-building since it is the optimum design for stability in rough seas. The Ark, as designed by God, was virtually impossible to capsize! It would have to have been tilted over 90 degrees in order to capsize.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
It matters little whether atheists believe that Noah's ark was real. This vessel was not a ship...it had neither bow nor stern and no rudder. It was not designed to navigate, but only to float. The space on board could well have accommodated all the species God brought to Noah for preservation. The majority were quite small in size.


See also....Noah’s Ark and Naval Architecture — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

It was incredibly sea worthy and according to ship-builders, this ratio represents an advanced knowledge of ship-building since it is the optimum design for stability in rough seas. The Ark, as designed by God, was virtually impossible to capsize! It would have to have been tilted over 90 degrees in order to capsize.

wooden ships over a certain size are not seaworthy. they twist and bow with pressures of the water and leak and eventually founder.
Provide a link to a Marine engineer who says otherwise if you have one.
It matters a great deal whether one believes such a ship was real as this definitely affects one's ability to believe in your religion.
 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Disobedience does not require either of those things. There is something called trust....and that is what they should have displayed towards their Creator. They, as beings without defect, "made in God's image", knew what they were doing and chose to disobey a direct command, the only one with the death penalty attached to it. The flaw was in not adhering to the rules thinking that somehow the penalty didn't apply. The devil is a master deceiver and chose the less experienced of the two. She believed him when he said they wouldn't die. But why?



It boils down to understanding the issues raised in Eden. A rebel spirit made claims and accusations about the Creator and his motives to the woman and she believed him. When she tried to rope her husband into the act, he could have declined, but chose instead to throw in his lot with her. "Divide and conquer" works for the devil and has for millennia. Adam was the real target of his actions.

The devil's claims basically made God out to be a liar and keeping something from his children that they had a right to know and experience.
Was that true? Did God lie about the penalty? Would they die "on the day" that they ate from that fruit?
Was the Creator the rightful Sovereign over all his intelligent creation both here on earth and in heaven? Does he have the right to set reasonable limits to the freedom that he granted them?
Does he have the right to keep something to himself if it means protection?
Would a knowledge of good and evil benefit mankind in any way?

There was only one way to find out....not that God didn't know what the outcome would inevitably be, but that humans would have to experience the consequences of the own actions and "reap what they had sown". God stepped out of the picture and allowed the rebellious humans and the angels to learn the hard lessons of independent thinking in opposition to their Maker. God only intervened when his purpose was threatened in some way. His intervention was only to keep his purpose on track. Man would be allowed to try and rule himself without God intervening and see if the devil's claims turned out to be true.

If God were to lessen the impact of their actions, then he would be counteracting the very reason for allowing humans to see the folly of following their own ideas under the influence of the devil behind the scenes. (1 John 5:19) This object lesson will never be forgotten and will form the basis to judge any rebel in the future, both in heaven and on earth. As long as free will exists, then it can be exercised in a wrong way. We have seen where man's governance has taken us....look at the state of the world! What have we learned? :shrug:

"Who said that humans were created naive or gullible? "

You pretty much answer that in your second paragraph when you wrote: "A rebel spirit made claims and accusations about the Creator and his motives to the woman and she believed him." Only someone very naive and gullible would take the word of someone they'd never met before over that of their creator.

And of course this was all BEFORE they even had knowledge of good and evil. They didn't even know the concept of right and wrong, so how can you claim that they willingly sinned? If you don't comprehend good and evil then you wouldn't have any concept of truth and deception. So God took a couple that had never been lied to and didn't even understand the concept of deception and put them in a garden with a lying deceptive snake. Is anyone surprised that such naive and gullible people were easily tricked? It's obvious to me that this would be the result, and I'm just a mere fallible mortal. Surely an all-knowing God wasn't surprised when the inevitable occurred.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
wooden ships over a certain size are not seaworthy. they twist and bow with pressures of theater and leak and eventually founder.
Provide a link to a Marine engineer who says otherwise if you have one.
It matters a great deal whether one believes such a ship was real as this definitely affects one's ability to believe in your religion.


‘Noah’s Ark would have floated’

This had already been posted earlier in the thread.
 
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