Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No thanks-- I can read the bible for myself. I do not need someone "explaining" why the bible does not say what it REALLY says, but the exact opposite of what is written.
Pass.
The verses are in this video
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No thanks-- I can read the bible for myself. I do not need someone "explaining" why the bible does not say what it REALLY says, but the exact opposite of what is written.
Pass.
..my bad.. i didn't realize this was just another, 'Bash Christianity!' thread.. but maybe they all are!
..Love the caricatures and false narratives... gushing out in one of the biggest propaganda streams I've ever seen in one place!
So, it looks like anti-Christian bashing is the favorite pastime, here. No good ever came from Christianity, only evil and death, right?
The problem is that Christians have not been able to own up to the flaws in the Bible. If they could be honest there would be no need to "bash"...my bad.. i didn't realize this was just another, 'Bash Christianity!' thread.. but maybe they all are!
..Love the caricatures and false narratives... gushing out in one of the biggest propaganda streams I've ever seen in one place!
So, it looks like anti-Christian bashing is the favorite pastime, here. No good ever came from Christianity, only evil and death, right?
Instead of bemoaning how terrible the thread is, why don't you actually point out one of the "caricatures" and "false narratives" and demonstrate how it's inaccurate, and then we can discuss it?..my bad.. i didn't realize this was just another, 'Bash Christianity!' thread.. but maybe they all are!
..Love the caricatures and false narratives... gushing out in one of the biggest propaganda streams I've ever seen in one place!
No one in this thread claimed, "no good ever came from Christianity." Your exaggeration suggests that you don't have a good response to the actual content that's been posted.So, it looks like anti-Christian bashing is the favorite pastime, here. No good ever came from Christianity, only evil and death, right?
Totally untrue. At Jehovah's command, Israelites were explicitly allowed to take slaves from foreign people they conquered:
“If you approach a city to fight against it, you should also announce to it terms of peace. If it gives a peaceful answer to you and opens up to you, all the people found there will become yours for forced labor, and they will serve you. But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead goes to war with you, you should besiege it, and Jehovah your God will certainly give it into your hand, and you must strike down every male in it with the sword. However, the women, the children, the livestock, and everything that is in the city, all its spoil, you may plunder for yourself, and you will eat the spoil of your enemies, which Jehovah your God has given to you." Deut. 20:10-14
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you, from them you may buy a male or a female slave. Also from the sons of the foreign settlers who are residing with you, from them and from their families that are born to them in your land you may buy slaves, and they will become your possession. You may pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you to inherit as a permanent possession." (Lev. 25:44-46)
Is it ever morally acceptable to own another person as property?
No thanks-- I can read the bible for myself. I do not need someone "explaining" why the bible does not say what it REALLY says, but the exact opposite of what is written.
Pass.
Again this only applied to those who were foreigners who served other gods. Israel taking slaves would have been similar to hiring employees.
It was back then...now it isn't. God modified his laws to protect those who warranted his protection. Children were viewed as property and so were wives a good deal of the time....he made sure that no one was abused by the standards of the day. Slavery is not acceptable as the standard, today. You can't judge yesterdays practices by today's standards, which is what I believe is happening here.
Personally, I don't see a reason to follow the commands of any deity who has ever considered it morally acceptable to own people.
Thank you for saying that, it does make the situation completely clear. You god could command something completely heinous and immoral (and already has, as we've covered) and you would unquestioningly obey.Whatever you think is a fair thing. If that is the way you see it, then what can be said?
God does not need to justify his actions to anyone. I'm sorry that you think he is under obligation to do that. He makes the rules and all we have to do is follow them.....I personally have no difficulty with anything that God has done in the past or will do in the future....he doesn't have to answer to me. It is we who have to answer to him.
Thank you for saying that, it does make the situation completely clear. You god could command something completely heinous and immoral (and already has, as we've covered) and you would unquestioningly obey.
I'm thankful to live in a world where that kind of blind devotion is waning. I hope one day you'll see why that perspective is so disturbing and self-limiting.
We literally just went over how he did. Were you going to answer any of the questions I asked about it?Since my God has never done that to me,
My assertion was just restating what you said. God does not have to justify anything he commands to you, and you have already decided you are going to obey without question, and in fact are obligated to do so.I find your assertion to be completely unfounded.
First of all, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You made a claim about slavery in the Bible that was completely contradicted by the text, and I showed you exactly where. Then when I asked you if it was okay to own people, you said, it was okay then, but not now. So I asked very obvious follow up questions to that mind-blowingly relativistic response, and you side-stepped without answering.I am a Christian, not an Israelite. Following the teachings of Jesus Christ has never been a chore for me. It obviously is for you.
What are you studying for? You just got done explaining, "God does not need to justify his actions to anyone...He makes the rules and all we have to do is follow them." Which is it? Should we study to determine if your god's behavior is good and his commands worth following? Or should we just obey?My devotion to God has never been blind. My eyes are wide open and through careful study, I understand completely what God has done in the past, what he is doing right now, and what he will do in the future.
If you completely understand everything God does past present and future, you should have no need to wait and see, because you already know.I am happy to wait and see...what about you?
Suit yourself. Makes no difference to me...
Since my God has never done that to me, I find your assertion to be completely unfounded. I am a Christian, not an Israelite. Following the teachings of Jesus Christ has never been a chore for me. It obviously is for you..
God does not need to justify his actions to anyone.
Perhaps we need to question our human ability to reason in the first place...after all, our reasoning ability on any topic is based on our knowledge of it. How much do we really know about any of it....as opposed to what we assume? This I believe applies equally in both camps.
If our knowledge is not soundly based, then our reasoning will be flawed. We tend to place science as the standard by which we judge God. But science is not exactly accurate much of the time. It comes to conclusions based on available knowledge and educated guessing in many cases. What is an established 'fact' today, may be superceded tomorrow. Facts don't change, but supposition does. How much of the science that is presented to the public (taught to children in school from a young age) is actual fact?
As I see it, people have flawed reasoning ability in both camps.
Those who think they know what the Bible teaches, base their understanding on what their "experts" (scholars) proffer, but on further investigation, demonstrate that they know very little about God and his purpose in our being here. Dogmatic beliefs fly in the face of what science knows, so it makes them look silly....uneducated.
Those who have ditched God, for science, (believing that science has successfully eliminated all need for him) are also basing their position on the flawed reasoning of others.
This is a very important issue because our future life is at stake. We are all stuck in this world for now, and depending upon what we feel in our own heart (sometimes conflicting with what is in our heads) we can either put God away...or we can't. That nagging doubt just won't go away.
Those who can accept that we are just an accident of nature and have no purpose here.....that this life is all there is....will not be disappointed. This life is all there will ever be for them. They will get what they expect.
However, those who have a spiritual nature, will fight to reconcile their spirituality with either cold science, Biblical Christianity, or some other expression of faith. It is spiritually minded people who have the greatest scope for choice. Their choice will determine their future according to the Bible. (which is what Independ on)
So how do we solve this dilemma? How do we find the diamond in the huge pile of broken glass? Is it even there?
From the Bible's viewpoint the situation is clear.
John 6:65...
Jesus said...."no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” So we do not choose God as much as he chooses us, based on what he sees in us. Sometimes that is not just who we are now, but the potential of what we could become. The apostle Paul was a classic example of that.
Most spiritually minded people are looking for a religion (mode of worship) that suits them, rather than looking for a way to serve God that aligns with his will, rather than their own. He will never comply with our will....we must comply with his.
So those who choose their own way are also covered in the Bible....people often point to miracles as proof that God's spirit is with them....is that true?
When Jesus comes to judge the world, this is what the Bible says he confronts....from those who are sure that they are Christians in good standing...
Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!"
"Lawlessness"? How can "Christians" be "workers of lawlessness"?
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12....
"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
See...God allows people to believe lies if that is their wish.......it's a situation where it's not surprising that Jesus could say that "few" are actually on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)
We all have choices.....but as I see it....not the way we might imagine.
I don't feel God treats us as a whole we are individuals and have to live our own life, I don't look for a religion because of how I feel about Christians always claiming they are the right ones and so sure everything in those scriptures are without a doubt accurate ,I do however seek more and more to learn about my spirituality and my individual path God has placed me on, I don't expect for others to believe in my path,I could care less and care even less about theirs, it's a personal thing ,God loves me for me;not for Mary,Tom and Mack.I don't believe in the bible and that's my chose,God created me so he already knows how I operate and loves me for it.Perhaps we need to question our human ability to reason in the first place...after all, our reasoning ability on any topic is based on our knowledge of it. How much do we really know about any of it....as opposed to what we assume? This I believe applies equally in both camps.
If our knowledge is not soundly based, then our reasoning will be flawed. We tend to place science as the standard by which we judge God. But science is not exactly accurate much of the time. It comes to conclusions based on available knowledge and educated guessing in many cases. What is an established 'fact' today, may be superceded tomorrow. Facts don't change, but supposition does. How much of the science that is presented to the public (taught to children in school from a young age) is actual fact?
As I see it, people have flawed reasoning ability in both camps.
Those who think they know what the Bible teaches, base their understanding on what their "experts" (scholars) proffer, but on further investigation, demonstrate that they know very little about God and his purpose in our being here. Dogmatic beliefs fly in the face of what science knows, so it makes them look silly....uneducated.
Those who have ditched God, for science, (believing that science has successfully eliminated all need for him) are also basing their position on the flawed reasoning of others.
This is a very important issue because our future life is at stake. We are all stuck in this world for now, and depending upon what we feel in our own heart (sometimes conflicting with what is in our heads) we can either put God away...or we can't. That nagging doubt just won't go away.
Those who can accept that we are just an accident of nature and have no purpose here.....that this life is all there is....will not be disappointed. This life is all there will ever be for them. They will get what they expect.
However, those who have a spiritual nature, will fight to reconcile their spirituality with either cold science, Biblical Christianity, or some other expression of faith. It is spiritually minded people who have the greatest scope for choice. Their choice will determine their future according to the Bible. (which is what Independ on)
So how do we solve this dilemma? How do we find the diamond in the huge pile of broken glass? Is it even there?
From the Bible's viewpoint the situation is clear.
John 6:65...
Jesus said...."no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” So we do not choose God as much as he chooses us, based on what he sees in us. Sometimes that is not just who we are now, but the potential of what we could become. The apostle Paul was a classic example of that.
Most spiritually minded people are looking for a religion (mode of worship) that suits them, rather than looking for a way to serve God that aligns with his will, rather than their own. He will never comply with our will....we must comply with his.
So those who choose their own way are also covered in the Bible....people often point to miracles as proof that God's spirit is with them....is that true?
When Jesus comes to judge the world, this is what the Bible says he confronts....from those who are sure that they are Christians in good standing...
Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!"
"Lawlessness"? How can "Christians" be "workers of lawlessness"?
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12....
"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."
See...God allows people to believe lies if that is their wish.......it's a situation where it's not surprising that Jesus could say that "few" are actually on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)
We all have choices.....but as I see it....not the way we might imagine.
Since I am not aware of any "atrocities" committed in the name of my religion, I am rather puzzled by this. Please do not assign the misdeeds committed in the name of Christendom to JW's. We are no part of that institution.Aye, and that's the rub, isn't it? You are complacent anytime people in your religion commit atrocities in the name of your religion?
Gotcha.
Although it will initially seem to be a contest between religion and science this is not the case. Science is relegated to providing facts which a belief can either reject or conform to. And science often lags behind reason because finding testable proof is more time consuming. Rather, it is a pure matter of reason. All but one belief will fail to value it in its reliable forms- preferring the unreliable.
That would be another thread, addressing any alleged 'flaws!', in the bible.. but how does that justify bashing people's beliefs? Isn't that just old fashioned religious bigotry? Where you extol the wisdom of YOUR beliefs, and ridicule any competitors?The problem is that Christians have not been able to own up to the flaws in the Bible. If they could be honest there would be no need to "bash".