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Foolish duplicity detected:

usfan

Well-Known Member
..my bad.. i didn't realize this was just another, 'Bash Christianity!' thread.. but maybe they all are! :)

..Love the caricatures and false narratives... gushing out in one of the biggest propaganda streams I've ever seen in one place! :sweatsmile:

So, it looks like anti-Christian bashing is the favorite pastime, here. No good ever came from Christianity, only evil and death, right?
:facepalm:
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
..my bad.. i didn't realize this was just another, 'Bash Christianity!' thread.. but maybe they all are! :)

..Love the caricatures and false narratives... gushing out in one of the biggest propaganda streams I've ever seen in one place! :sweatsmile:

So, it looks like anti-Christian bashing is the favorite pastime, here. No good ever came from Christianity, only evil and death, right?
:facepalm:

Ouchies. If that's the way you truly think, then um...

anigif_enhanced-buzz-12884-1409219247-8.gif
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
..my bad.. i didn't realize this was just another, 'Bash Christianity!' thread.. but maybe they all are! :)

..Love the caricatures and false narratives... gushing out in one of the biggest propaganda streams I've ever seen in one place! :sweatsmile:

So, it looks like anti-Christian bashing is the favorite pastime, here. No good ever came from Christianity, only evil and death, right?
:facepalm:
The problem is that Christians have not been able to own up to the flaws in the Bible. If they could be honest there would be no need to "bash".
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
..my bad.. i didn't realize this was just another, 'Bash Christianity!' thread.. but maybe they all are! :)

..Love the caricatures and false narratives... gushing out in one of the biggest propaganda streams I've ever seen in one place! :sweatsmile:
Instead of bemoaning how terrible the thread is, why don't you actually point out one of the "caricatures" and "false narratives" and demonstrate how it's inaccurate, and then we can discuss it?

So, it looks like anti-Christian bashing is the favorite pastime, here. No good ever came from Christianity, only evil and death, right?
:facepalm:
No one in this thread claimed, "no good ever came from Christianity." Your exaggeration suggests that you don't have a good response to the actual content that's been posted.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Totally untrue. At Jehovah's command, Israelites were explicitly allowed to take slaves from foreign people they conquered:

“If you approach a city to fight against it, you should also announce to it terms of peace. If it gives a peaceful answer to you and opens up to you, all the people found there will become yours for forced labor, and they will serve you. But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead goes to war with you, you should besiege it, and Jehovah your God will certainly give it into your hand, and you must strike down every male in it with the sword. However, the women, the children, the livestock, and everything that is in the city, all its spoil, you may plunder for yourself, and you will eat the spoil of your enemies, which Jehovah your God has given to you." Deut. 20:10-14

Perhaps some context may help....

"Canaanites. It was in the conquest of Canaan that this sacred banning reached its greatest prominence. Prior to the official entry into the land, when the Canaanite king of Arad attacked Israel down in the Negeb, Jehovah approved the Israelites’ vow to devote the cities of his kingdom to destruction. (Nu 21:1-3)

Following their attacks on Israel, the kingdoms of Sihon and Og, E of the Jordan, next came under ban, resulting in the destruction of all persons in their cities and the preservation of only the domestic animals and other spoil. (De 2:31-35; 3:1-7) Later, on the Plains of Moab, just before the crossing of the Jordan by the Israelites, Jehovah reemphasized the vital need for clean worship and the avoidance of all corrupting influences. He decreed that seven nations in the Promised Land were to be placed under sacred ban and that their idolatrous populations were to be devoted to destruction by the Israelites, who were to act as his executioners. (De 7:1-6, 16, 22-26)

Only faraway cities not of these nations were to be given the option of seeking peace; but those nations designated by God as devoted to destruction were to be annihilated, “in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things, which they have done to their gods, and you may indeed sin against Jehovah your God.” (De 20:10-18) The sparing of any of them would lead inevitably to infection and contamination by their false religions. Their extermination could serve to preserve the lives of the Israelites themselves; but, of greater importance, it would maintain the purity of the worship of the Universal Sovereign, Jehovah God. The same ban was to apply to any apostatizing member of their families or to the future inhabitants of any of the Israelite cities that might be established in the Promised Land.—De 13:6-17."

Devoted Thing — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

What did "forced labor" mean in Israel? Certainly NOT the same as it meant in nations that did not serve the true God. Because these nations came into battle with Israel, each in the name of its god, so Israel came in the name of Jehovah and proved to them that he was the superior God...and that their own gods were impotent. That is how things worked back then. It was an ancient mindset.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you, from them you may buy a male or a female slave. Also from the sons of the foreign settlers who are residing with you, from them and from their families that are born to them in your land you may buy slaves, and they will become your possession. You may pass them on as an inheritance to your sons after you to inherit as a permanent possession." (Lev. 25:44-46)

Again this only applied to those who were foreigners who served other gods. Israel taking slaves would have been similar to hiring employees. They had food and lodging in exchange for services rendered. They were to "serve" the Israelites who did not practice harsh slavery. Their slaves were not abused. Yet we must remember the times and understand that slavery was widely practiced in ancient times among all peoples. It was the norm.....morally acceptable at the time.

Is it ever morally acceptable to own another person as property?

It was back then...now it isn't. God modified his laws to protect those who warranted his protection. Children were viewed as property and so were wives a good deal of the time....he made sure that no one was abused by the standards of the day. Slavery is not acceptable as the standard, today. You can't judge yesterdays practices by today's standards, which is what I believe is happening here.
 
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Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Again this only applied to those who were foreigners who served other gods. Israel taking slaves would have been similar to hiring employees.

So it's acceptable to own people from other countries as property, just not your own country? C'mon now.
Also, employees are not property. So no, it is nothing like employment.

It was back then...now it isn't. God modified his laws to protect those who warranted his protection. Children were viewed as property and so were wives a good deal of the time....he made sure that no one was abused by the standards of the day. Slavery is not acceptable as the standard, today. You can't judge yesterdays practices by today's standards, which is what I believe is happening here.

I can absolutely judge the commandments of a supposedly morally perfect being, no matter when he issued them. Unless you don't think Jehovah is morally perfect?

So to be clear, are you saying God changed his mind? He used to consider owning people as property to be morally acceptable, but then changed his mind and decided it wasn't?

How do you know he won't do the same thing again, and change his mind about what he teaches is morally acceptable and unacceptable now?

Personally, I don't see a reason to follow the commands of any deity who has ever considered it morally acceptable to own people.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Personally, I don't see a reason to follow the commands of any deity who has ever considered it morally acceptable to own people.

Whatever you think is a fair thing. If that is the way you see it, then what can be said?

God does not need to justify his actions to anyone. I'm sorry that you think he is under obligation to do that. He makes the rules and all we have to do is follow them.....I personally have no difficulty with anything that God has done in the past or will do in the future....he doesn't have to answer to me. It is we who have to answer to him.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Whatever you think is a fair thing. If that is the way you see it, then what can be said?

God does not need to justify his actions to anyone. I'm sorry that you think he is under obligation to do that. He makes the rules and all we have to do is follow them.....I personally have no difficulty with anything that God has done in the past or will do in the future....he doesn't have to answer to me. It is we who have to answer to him.
Thank you for saying that, it does make the situation completely clear. You god could command something completely heinous and immoral (and already has, as we've covered) and you would unquestioningly obey.

I'm thankful to live in a world where that kind of blind devotion is waning. I hope one day you'll see why that perspective is so disturbing and self-limiting.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Thank you for saying that, it does make the situation completely clear. You god could command something completely heinous and immoral (and already has, as we've covered) and you would unquestioningly obey.

Since my God has never done that to me, I find your assertion to be completely unfounded. I am a Christian, not an Israelite. Following the teachings of Jesus Christ has never been a chore for me. It obviously is for you.

I'm thankful to live in a world where that kind of blind devotion is waning. I hope one day you'll see why that perspective is so disturbing and self-limiting.

My devotion to God has never been blind. My eyes are wide open and through careful study, I understand completely what God has done in the past, what he is doing right now, and what he will do in the future.

I am happy to wait and see...what about you?
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Since my God has never done that to me,
We literally just went over how he did. Were you going to answer any of the questions I asked about it?

I find your assertion to be completely unfounded.
My assertion was just restating what you said. God does not have to justify anything he commands to you, and you have already decided you are going to obey without question, and in fact are obligated to do so.

I am a Christian, not an Israelite. Following the teachings of Jesus Christ has never been a chore for me. It obviously is for you.
First of all, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? You made a claim about slavery in the Bible that was completely contradicted by the text, and I showed you exactly where. Then when I asked you if it was okay to own people, you said, it was okay then, but not now. So I asked very obvious follow up questions to that mind-blowingly relativistic response, and you side-stepped without answering.

Did God change his mind about whether slavery is moral? He used to consider owning people as property to be morally acceptable, but then changed his mind and decided it wasn't?How do you know he won't do the same thing again, and change his mind about what he teaches is morally acceptable and unacceptable now?

And if you think the New Testament gets you off the hook about slavery, think again.

My devotion to God has never been blind. My eyes are wide open and through careful study, I understand completely what God has done in the past, what he is doing right now, and what he will do in the future.
What are you studying for? You just got done explaining, "God does not need to justify his actions to anyone...He makes the rules and all we have to do is follow them." Which is it? Should we study to determine if your god's behavior is good and his commands worth following? Or should we just obey?

I am happy to wait and see...what about you?
If you completely understand everything God does past present and future, you should have no need to wait and see, because you already know.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Since my God has never done that to me, I find your assertion to be completely unfounded. I am a Christian, not an Israelite. Following the teachings of Jesus Christ has never been a chore for me. It obviously is for you..

Except you don't actually follow it, do you? No, you "follow" some imaginary narrative that doesn't exist on paper.

Well, no wonder it's so easy to follow! It matches what you wanted to do in the first place! Just ignore what those words mean in that old book over there-- that only matters to people who need a "lesson".

Gotcha.
 

KelseyR

The eternal optimist!
Perhaps we need to question our human ability to reason in the first place...after all, our reasoning ability on any topic is based on our knowledge of it. How much do we really know about any of it....as opposed to what we assume? This I believe applies equally in both camps.

If our knowledge is not soundly based, then our reasoning will be flawed. We tend to place science as the standard by which we judge God. But science is not exactly accurate much of the time. It comes to conclusions based on available knowledge and educated guessing in many cases. What is an established 'fact' today, may be superceded tomorrow. Facts don't change, but supposition does. How much of the science that is presented to the public (taught to children in school from a young age) is actual fact?

As I see it, people have flawed reasoning ability in both camps.
Those who think they know what the Bible teaches, base their understanding on what their "experts" (scholars) proffer, but on further investigation, demonstrate that they know very little about God and his purpose in our being here. Dogmatic beliefs fly in the face of what science knows, so it makes them look silly....uneducated.

Those who have ditched God, for science, (believing that science has successfully eliminated all need for him) are also basing their position on the flawed reasoning of others.

This is a very important issue because our future life is at stake. We are all stuck in this world for now, and depending upon what we feel in our own heart (sometimes conflicting with what is in our heads) we can either put God away...or we can't. That nagging doubt just won't go away.

Those who can accept that we are just an accident of nature and have no purpose here.....that this life is all there is....will not be disappointed. This life is all there will ever be for them. They will get what they expect.

However, those who have a spiritual nature, will fight to reconcile their spirituality with either cold science, Biblical Christianity, or some other expression of faith. It is spiritually minded people who have the greatest scope for choice. Their choice will determine their future according to the Bible. (which is what Independ on)

So how do we solve this dilemma? How do we find the diamond in the huge pile of broken glass? Is it even there?

From the Bible's viewpoint the situation is clear.

John 6:65...
Jesus said...."no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” So we do not choose God as much as he chooses us, based on what he sees in us. Sometimes that is not just who we are now, but the potential of what we could become. The apostle Paul was a classic example of that.

Most spiritually minded people are looking for a religion (mode of worship) that suits them, rather than looking for a way to serve God that aligns with his will, rather than their own. He will never comply with our will....we must comply with his.

So those who choose their own way are also covered in the Bible....people often point to miracles as proof that God's spirit is with them....is that true?

When Jesus comes to judge the world, this is what the Bible says he confronts....from those who are sure that they are Christians in good standing...

Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!"

"Lawlessness"? How can "Christians" be "workers of lawlessness"?

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12....
"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

See...God allows people to believe lies if that is their wish.......it's a situation where it's not surprising that Jesus could say that "few" are actually on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We all have choices.....but as I see it....not the way we might imagine.

Although it will initially seem to be a contest between religion and science this is not the case. Science is relegated to providing facts which a belief can either reject or conform to. And science often lags behind reason because finding testable proof is more time consuming. Rather, it is a pure matter of reason. All but one belief will fail to value it in its reliable forms- preferring the unreliable.
 

Diamond

Member
Perhaps we need to question our human ability to reason in the first place...after all, our reasoning ability on any topic is based on our knowledge of it. How much do we really know about any of it....as opposed to what we assume? This I believe applies equally in both camps.

If our knowledge is not soundly based, then our reasoning will be flawed. We tend to place science as the standard by which we judge God. But science is not exactly accurate much of the time. It comes to conclusions based on available knowledge and educated guessing in many cases. What is an established 'fact' today, may be superceded tomorrow. Facts don't change, but supposition does. How much of the science that is presented to the public (taught to children in school from a young age) is actual fact?

As I see it, people have flawed reasoning ability in both camps.
Those who think they know what the Bible teaches, base their understanding on what their "experts" (scholars) proffer, but on further investigation, demonstrate that they know very little about God and his purpose in our being here. Dogmatic beliefs fly in the face of what science knows, so it makes them look silly....uneducated.

Those who have ditched God, for science, (believing that science has successfully eliminated all need for him) are also basing their position on the flawed reasoning of others.

This is a very important issue because our future life is at stake. We are all stuck in this world for now, and depending upon what we feel in our own heart (sometimes conflicting with what is in our heads) we can either put God away...or we can't. That nagging doubt just won't go away.

Those who can accept that we are just an accident of nature and have no purpose here.....that this life is all there is....will not be disappointed. This life is all there will ever be for them. They will get what they expect.

However, those who have a spiritual nature, will fight to reconcile their spirituality with either cold science, Biblical Christianity, or some other expression of faith. It is spiritually minded people who have the greatest scope for choice. Their choice will determine their future according to the Bible. (which is what Independ on)

So how do we solve this dilemma? How do we find the diamond in the huge pile of broken glass? Is it even there?

From the Bible's viewpoint the situation is clear.

John 6:65...
Jesus said...."no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” So we do not choose God as much as he chooses us, based on what he sees in us. Sometimes that is not just who we are now, but the potential of what we could become. The apostle Paul was a classic example of that.

Most spiritually minded people are looking for a religion (mode of worship) that suits them, rather than looking for a way to serve God that aligns with his will, rather than their own. He will never comply with our will....we must comply with his.

So those who choose their own way are also covered in the Bible....people often point to miracles as proof that God's spirit is with them....is that true?

When Jesus comes to judge the world, this is what the Bible says he confronts....from those who are sure that they are Christians in good standing...

Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!"

"Lawlessness"? How can "Christians" be "workers of lawlessness"?

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12....
"But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

See...God allows people to believe lies if that is their wish.......it's a situation where it's not surprising that Jesus could say that "few" are actually on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)

We all have choices.....but as I see it....not the way we might imagine.
I don't feel God treats us as a whole we are individuals and have to live our own life, I don't look for a religion because of how I feel about Christians always claiming they are the right ones and so sure everything in those scriptures are without a doubt accurate ,I do however seek more and more to learn about my spirituality and my individual path God has placed me on, I don't expect for others to believe in my path,I could care less and care even less about theirs, it's a personal thing ,God loves me for me;not for Mary,Tom and Mack.I don't believe in the bible and that's my chose,God created me so he already knows how I operate and loves me for it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Aye, and that's the rub, isn't it? You are complacent anytime people in your religion commit atrocities in the name of your religion?

Gotcha.
Since I am not aware of any "atrocities" committed in the name of my religion, I am rather puzzled by this. Please do not assign the misdeeds committed in the name of Christendom to JW's. We are no part of that institution.

"Christianity" is defined by actions, not empty words.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Although it will initially seem to be a contest between religion and science this is not the case. Science is relegated to providing facts which a belief can either reject or conform to. And science often lags behind reason because finding testable proof is more time consuming. Rather, it is a pure matter of reason. All but one belief will fail to value it in its reliable forms- preferring the unreliable.

You know what I find interesting about human nature? We all have a need for guidance, no matter who we are, or whether we are spiritually minded or completely materialistic...we all depend on others to provide us with information that is evaluated individually to supply our most important human needs, whatever they may be for us individually.

When I step back and observe human nature I see the same pattern repeated......over and over. Humans are influenced by other humans to follow the path they eventually choose. No one really arrives at their 'fork in the road' on their own. No matter what our influences are growing up, we all end up following what our heart dictates for our own reasons. Either meekly conforming to the expectations of others, or courageously breaking away to forge our own path in spite of opposition.

So how do humans conform to the same pattern regardless of what they choose?

For the majority of humans, it appears that we are programmed to be followers. Very few of us are destined to be leaders. The leaders among us are very influential....often more than we realize.
The whole 'celebrity' thing is proof of that. Wanting to imitate celebrities (many of whom are not famous for doing anything constructive) is Idolization for some empty headed individuals who need to borrow someone else's life.
It is basically a form of worship when you step back and look at it objectively. And herein lies the similarity....apparently, we are also programmed for worship of some description. Who we worship is dependent upon what we value and whether or not we are spiritual in our nature or just the opposite. Also if we are compliant by nature or non-conformist will dictate the extent to which we will forge our path.

How can 'worship' be manifest in areas of life not generally seen or recognized as 'religion'?

Apart from celebrity adoration, we also have sporting idols who are adored each week, either by attending a place of worship (a large temple-like sporting arena) or by watching the game on TV with other devotees sharing the excitement of watching their idols in action. These are the places where the masses gather 'religiously' to give their undivided attention to their particular form of 'worship'. They will read anything about their idols like it is scripture, even having their images grace their walls or prizing an autograph as a trophy.

Science has also become somewhat of a 'religion' to those who feel that God and religion are just for uneducated people who don't know any better. Since science has replaced religion in their lives for the most part, is there a similarity there too? Well, science in many instances behaves like a religion. It idolizes great men of science who often create 'scripture' that is devoured by their devotees, whilst these ones walk the hallowed halls of academia like apostles leading a church. These 'temples' are revered and many flock there to be educated in them and to absorb their writings.

So I don't see a lot of difference in the way humans behave....they just choose their 'religion' based on what is important to them. They choose their 'gods' based on what they want to hear and walk their path based on what they want to believe.

That seems pretty obvious to me.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
The problem is that Christians have not been able to own up to the flaws in the Bible. If they could be honest there would be no need to "bash".
That would be another thread, addressing any alleged 'flaws!', in the bible.. but how does that justify bashing people's beliefs? Isn't that just old fashioned religious bigotry? Where you extol the wisdom of YOUR beliefs, and ridicule any competitors?

Honesty is not the issue. Belief and perspective, is. But i just noticed a trend.. or a sport.. of Christian bashing, here.. not really surprising, given the direction of the public discourse.
:shrug:
 
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