Ferguson: Moving on..why none of this will mater...

[oldbadger]

OK. So it affects how someone could respond to a situation. But again, that does not explain or prevent situations where a cop may have to use deadly force.

Yes it does........
All that I have already mentioned, plus best body armour and strict rules about wearing it (it gets hot!) plus exact procedures..... do help.
Then, when an op has to use deadly force she (or he) can show that she approached it right, communicated right, reacted right, warned (if poss) right etc etc....... and acted 'right' beyond any doubts. Recent very sad incidents have not been able to show this, which has caused civil commotion, etc...... all very sad.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

What's the problem? Well, Ferguson and other areas are now the problem. Stick to what you do, might be best. Such a comment as the above shows the members everything that they need to know about you.

Its only a problem if there was no threat or actual physical assault involved. Otherwise, instead of making blanket statements, I'd like to know how many of these police shooting cases involved a physical threat or assault before I say how much of a problem it is for cops as opposed to a problem of violent criminals who don't respect life, let alone some cop. Just look at black on black crime which shows a problem with violrnce

 

[outhouse]

. But what do you know about it? .

Enough t know our police officers need to be able to protect itself from violent criminals.

California alone has roughly 150,000 reports of violent crime. In one year. Over 10 years were talking about millions of violent crimes in one state alone


So 5000 killed in the USA as a whole over a 10 year period, is a testament to how well our police force is operating.


So you have no say so at all on any topic regarding OUR police force. :slap:

 

[AgnosticBoy]

Yes it does........
All that I have already mentioned, plus best body armour and strict rules about wearing it (it gets hot!) plus exact procedures..... do help.
Then, when an op has to use deadly force she (or he) can show that she approached it right, communicated right, reacted right, warned (if poss) right etc etc....... and acted 'right' beyond any doubts. Recent very sad incidents have not been able to show this, which has caused civil commotion, etc...... all very sad.

So you're not against using deadly force. You're just raising the issue of the frequency of it related to accumulated stress. You said this is a problem in Fergueson. Can you prove this is a problem in Ferguson or in the Michael Brown case? Did you know how many police shootings, especially deadly force, occurred in that city before drawing your conclusion?

 

[oldbadger]

Its only a problem if there was no threat or actual physical assault involved.

I feel sure that your police can cope with some threats and assaults without killing, because I watch your 'Cops' fims on telly and I have only evcer seen one suspect shot, and he pulled a gun. OK?

Otherwise, instead of making blanket statements,

Training involves generalisations to cover as many types of incident as possible.
OK?

I'd like to know how many of these police shooting cases involved a physical threat or assault before I say how much of a problem it is for cops as opposed to a problem of violent criminals who don't respect life, let alone some cop.

...so would I... When you have researched some of the shooting cases, say, in a one-month period (circa 30 cases) , maybe you could return and tell us how many were right, how many were probably right, etc etc........ if the findings are honest and true.

 

[oldbadger]

Enough t know our police officers need to be able to protect itself from violent criminals.

California alone has roughly 150,000 reports of violent crime. In one year. Over 10 years were talking about millions of violent crimes in one state alone

So 5000 killed in the USA as a whole over a 10 year period, is a testament to how well our police force is operating.

So you have no say so at all on any topic regarding OUR police force. :slap:

If you think that nothing needs to be done to improve such situations then your post is, as usual, ignorant ..............

Everybody on RF gets a 'say'...... which is what makes RF so good.....

 

[outhouse]

If you think that nothing needs to be done to improve such situations ..

Honesty and context are key here.


Show me where I stated nothing needs to be done, after I factually said avoid them they are not that bright. :slap:

 

[oldbadger]

Its only a problem if there was no threat or actual physical assault involved.

............ you are commenting about Ferguson here........ and you suggest that it is only a problem if....... ?

Ferguson is a serious enough problem for your President to have got involved.

 

[oldbadger]

Honesty and context are key here.


Show me where I stated nothing needs to be done, after I factually said avoid them they are not that bright. :slap:

Could you share with us what you think needs to be done?

 

[Alceste]

Again it Is a good start.

The USA has a terrible crime problem, and we are to lenient with criminals.

That does not mean I say we kill them all, Im saying if criminals get in shoot outs with the cops OR assaults, then they are cleaning up the streets.

Really? Ha. Too lenient - the country with more people incarcerated per capita than any other country on earth... Now I've heard everything.

 

[outhouse]

Could you share with us what you think needs to be done?

The problem here in Ferguson was something that could not be avoided.


There is nothing that could or should have been changed.


If you assault someone with a gun, you don't get to complain you were shot. :slap:

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I feel sure that your police can cope with some threats and assaults without killing, because I watch your 'Cops' fims on telly and I have only evcer seen one suspect shot, and he pulled a gun. OK?

I was referring to stats on deadly force as opposed to just injuring a criminal which could happen with fists flying. Going by your approach, this is why I question how many cops are injured in your country compared to the US.

...so would I... When you have researched some of the shooting cases, say, in a one-month period (circa 30 cases) , maybe you could return and tell us how many were right, how many were probably right, etc etc........ if the findings are honest and true.

I asked for evidence because some get their info. from biased or hyped media coverage. Looked at media coverage in Ferguson you'd think that there was a mass killing of Black men going on. Let's start with Ferguson. You said that place had the problem with police shootings. I question if you have any slightest idea of how many deadly police shootings there were to support your conclusion. Is the problem the police or is the problem the violence in these communities especially when you consider black on black crime which of course would be acted out on police such as captured on video with Mike Brown robbing a store. And then later assaulting a police officer and even trying to take the cop's gun.

 

[Alceste]

An operative's ability to cope with high conflict, stress, fear and duress can alter over time. This is well known. Therefore ops need much more time and money spent on their counselling, training reviews, rest and recuperation, and if it costs money then it costs money. Which part of this do you find as difficult to understand?

Each incident is an individual case. What do you do for a living?



Our police mostly have metal batons and pepper or CS sprays. Your post looks aggressive about my suggestion for more counselling, retraining, rest and recuperation for police officers...... why?

I just want to tell you how much I am appreciating your informed insight. It's helped me understand something about police brutality. Here I thought the job attracted violent thugs. But now I think becoming excessively violent is a consequence of the working environment.

Sorry your insights are wasted on the others, and sorry their posts are bullying and abusive. I'm surprised they are taking it so personally.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

I just want to tell you how much I am appreciating your informed insight. It's helped me understand something about police brutality. Here I thought the job attracted violent thugs. But now I think becoming excessively violent is a consequence of the working environment.

Sorry your insights are wasted on the others, and sorry their posts are bullying and abusive. I'm surprised they are taking it so personally.

Police brutality or brutality on police? I'd say both can be a problem but for some reason the latter is ignored especially when race is involved. The latter at times requires deadly force. That's the hard reality

 

[Alceste]

Police brutality or brutality on police? I'd say both can be a problem but for some reason the latter is ignored especially when race is involved. The latter at times requires deadly force. That's the hard reality

The hard reality is that police regularly use excessive and deadly force when they are in no danger at all, and there is no public accountability for cop-on-civilian violence. Those are the issues people are concerned about. Not the encounters where the violence is justifiable. Those are the issues old badger is addressing in his posts.

 

[outhouse]

Police brutality or brutality on police?

Which is less then .001 % of the violence compared to the black on black murders cops are called out to on a daily basis.

 

[outhouse]

The hard reality is that police regularly use excessive and deadly force when they are in no danger at all, and there is no public accountability for cop-on-civilian violence. Those are the issues people are concerned about. Not the encounters where the violence is justifiable. Those are the issues old badger is addressing in his posts.

Which ignores the total volume of violent crimes police deal with.


The problem is not the people who respond to violent crime.

The problem is the violent crime.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

The hard reality is that police regularly use excessive and deadly force when they are in no danger at all, and there is no public accountability for cop-on-civilian violence. Those are the issues people are concerned about. Not the encounters where the violence is justifiable. Those are the issues old badger is addressing in his posts.

My issue is with people not knowing what danger is or what warrants shooting or even deadly force. So you claim police "regularly" use "excessive" force. How do you know this is a problem as opposed to isolated incidents? I ask because non-critical thinkers are quick to point to isolated incidents and try to use that as a reason to PRESUME the Ferguson case is the same. I'm tired of this reckless thinking... I want to see some evidence starting with Ferguson.

 

[Alceste]

Which ignores the total volume of violent crimes police deal with.


The problem is not the people who respond to violent crime.

The problem is the violent crime.

Actually, he is explicitly NOT ignoring the daily pressures of being a police officer dealing with high stress encounters on a daily basis. He is trying to tell you - from years of experience - that with adequate training, R&R, stress response assessments and other tools, police can do a better job of assessing REAL (vs. imagined) threats and acting in accordance with their training even when their systems are flooded with adrenaline.

 

[Alceste]

My issue is with people not knowing what danger is or what warrants shooting or even deadly force. So you claim police "regularly" use "excessive" force. How do you know this is a problem as opposed to isolated incidents? I ask because non-critical thinkers are quick to point to isolated incidents and try to use that as a reason to PRESUME the Ferguson case is the same. I'm tired of this reckless thinking... I want to see some evidence starting with Ferguson.

"I want a systemic analysis of cop on civilian violence, not cherry picking isolated incidents, and I want you to start with this one isolated incident!"

I hope you realize your request is literally impossible to fulfill.