FEMINIST ONLY: Gender abolition and trans identity

[SomeRandom]

I don't think anyone is trying to abolish the idea of gender. I think it's more that people should be allowed to identify as they wish, even if that means they don't go by any particular gender.

Hey man, people can identify however they please. I’m not going to stop them

 

[Tiberius]

Hey man, people can identify however they please. I’m not going to stop them

That may be, but not everyone shares the same idea. There are plenty of people out there who want to get rid of the concept of gender altogether.

 

[VoidCat]

Okay I’ve heard of non binary before, but I think I’m more familiar with “gender fluidity.” In fact one of the YouTubers I frequently watch presents as both (switching between the two during videos), I think because sometimes they feel more comfortable presenting as one or the other. I’ve never been rude enough to ask, really.
But if I may enquire, what exactly are non binary identities and how you feel about your identity? I hear the phrase often but I don’t know much about them. It? Err you know what I mean

Nonbinary just means someone who doesn't identify as solely and/or fully male and solely and/fully female. Me? I identify as neither male or female. I feel happy in my identity.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

As much as I understand why, you just simply can't.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the word trans man or trans woman or women or men....

Even if people do find something wrong with it there are still going to be the medical aspect of things to consider as doctors need to know what sex you are. Not that they couldn't identify you in the first place by your bone structure at the offset and other telltale signs.

Alternatively I kind of agree that we could be much better off if we just used our names and not our sex.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You understand that gender abolition doesn't mean getting rid of these expressions, just changing our society so any given expression is not seen as male or female exclusively

Nature doesn't suggest thats something well do. Such as, human females are the only females on this planey who's breasts develop amd grow as a regular part of puberty ratjer than swelling for maternal care then going back to a non-enlarged state. And, of course, just like other sexually producing species, we humans too have our gender expressions as it partains to mating, rituals to woo a lover, grooming processes to enhance appeal, amd have have evolved primary and secondary sexual characteristics because sex amd gender are massively important to us.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not that they couldn't identify you in the first place by your bone structure at the offset and other telltale signs.

Thats mot always a clear cut, 100% fail-proof method that TV plays it up to be. Such as, with size and height there is tons of overlap, and only about 50% of women have what is considered a regular female pelvis). It'll work for a large number of cases, but overall it's just not a reliable method

 

[Shadow Wolf]

School sports events? Damn! I mean we’d have the national anthem for like primary school assemblies, but I suspect that was just to ensure we knew all the words. Lol
Heck we even dropped the second half of the anthem entirely. We’re just that lazy I guess?

Lol. America only does the first of I think three stanzas. And it's so bad they play it at theme parks when they open in the morning.

 

[Curious George]

Nature doesn't suggest thats something well do. Such as, human females are the only females on this planey who's breasts develop amd grow as a regular part of puberty ratjer than swelling for maternal care then going back to a non-enlarged state. And, of course, just like other sexually producing species, we humans too have our gender expressions as it partains to mating, rituals to woo a lover, grooming processes to enhance appeal, amd have have evolved primary and secondary sexual characteristics because sex amd gender are massively important to us.

I am just not seeing the connection here. Are you suggesting that a female without breasts is less of a female? Are you suggesting that a male with breasts is less of a male?

I am not sure that we will ever abolish gender either, but i am happy to move us along that path.

 

[Bird123]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

Validate one's identity??? I do not understand a need to validate. A person is who a person is. Be who you must. It's a part of the plan!!

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. One should define themselves through their actions and choices. This is far too important to allow others to do it for you.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you suggesting that a female without breasts is less of a female? Are you suggesting that a male with breasts is less of a male?

How did you get that connection?
What I'm saying is that--in addition to non-human species displaying gendered behaviors--gender is so ingrained into humans we are the only one who has females with breasts that permanently enlarged.
I shouldn't have to spell out every specific situation and circumstances. That's quite a jump to assume I would suggest such a thing.
And, because male and female brains are different (with this translating to average cognitive and behavioral differences between men and women, much like how there is a size difference on average), expressions of gender are wired into our genetics and neurological programming.
And then hormones themselves play a pretty big role (they are some serious "heavy weight" chemicals). The differences those lead to is astounding.

 

[Curious George]

How did you get that connection?
What I'm saying is that--in addition to non-human species displaying gendered behaviors--gender is so ingrained into humans we are the only one who has females with breasts that permanently enlarged.
I shouldn't have to spell out every specific situation and circumstances. That's quite a jump to assume I would suggest such a thing.
And, because male and female brains are different (with this translating to average cognitive and behavioral differences between men and women, much like how there is a size difference on average), expressions of gender are wired into our genetics and neurological programming.
And then hormones themselves play a pretty big role (they are some serious "heavy weight" chemicals). The differences those lead to is astounding.

You were the one that brought up breasts. As if somehow having breasts is prohibitive of abolishing gender such that we do not attribute one trait as exclusively male or female.

I simply said I am happy to move towards a society that does not attribute any traits as exclusively male or female. You seem to think that such an end would be boring. I disagree. However, i think it is more likely that you simply have assumed me to be saying something I am not.

Male and female brains are statistically different. This gives rise to further statistical differences. To suggest that this entails expressions of gender are wired is a leap in logic.

Gender is a cultural construct. I think we would benefit more as a culture if we did not ascribe to notions of some expression being exclusively male or female.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As if somehow having breasts is prohibitive of abolishing gender such that we do not attribute one trait as exclusively male or female.

Its the very fact they are permanently enlarged, due to that being as unnecessary as the clitoris, it strongly suggests gendered behavior and identity is a core part of who we are. I doubt transgender people would exist if it wasn't.

 

[SomeRandom]

Lol. America only does the first of I think three stanzas. And it's so bad they play it at theme parks when they open in the morning.

Damn that’s dedication lol

 

[SomeRandom]

Validate one's identity??? I do not understand a need to validate. A person is who a person is. Be who you must. It's a part of the plan!!

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. One should define themselves through their actions and choices. This is far too important to allow others to do it for you.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

In a perfect world perhaps. But we are social creatures and if the culture around us enforces a stricter dichotomy than what we fit into, insecurity may abound. Ideally a person can be whoever they damn well please. But judgmental folks might give them a hard time. Just there other day I had to (politely) remind a customer not to be rude to a couple, both of whom were very masculine presenting females with a baby. If I wasn’t on the clock I would have had a few more choice words for Mr judgey mcjudgepants.
I’m not trans myself, but I often get mistaken as lesbian by more closed minded individuals simply because I’m not particularly into feminine “things.” I kind of want there to be less walls and restrictions. To hell with traditions let’s make our own. But I don’t want it if it comes at the expense of others happiness.

 

[Curious George]

Its the very fact they are permanently enlarged, due to that being as unnecessary as the clitoris, it strongly suggests gendered behavior and identity is a core part of who we are. I doubt transgender people would exist if it wasn't.

Yeah, i don't think it strongly suggests whatyou think it strongly suggests. I am not sure if transgender people would exist without our concept of gender either. However, I think a lot of transgender people today would have felt less out of place before transitioning had we moved closer to gender abolition.

I don't think statistical anomalies are any less male or less female than their peers who fall under the bell curve. Sex and gender are not so open and closed as you seem intent on suggesting. Nor do they need matter so much.

I am not so sure that the clitoris is as unnecessary as you think either. The clitoris has evolved with the rest of our bodies precisely because it played a necessary role.

On an individual level things are different. I wouldn't rate a person's woman-ness on her breasts or the functionality of her clitoris. In fact, i can't think of any trait on which i would rate a person's womanliness or manliness. Can you? Or can you suggest a list of several traits which produce an amalgamation by which we can rate womanliness or manliness? If so, need this be so?

 

[SomeRandom]

That may be, but not everyone shares the same idea. There are plenty of people out there who want to get rid of the concept of gender altogether.

Fair enough. I kind of sympathise with the idea myself. To not be bound by cultural restrictions on gender (from both my Heritages) would be quite freeing.

 

[SomeRandom]

Its the very fact they are permanently enlarged, due to that being as unnecessary as the clitoris, it strongly suggests gendered behavior and identity is a core part of who we are. I doubt transgender people would exist if it wasn't.

I wouldn’t call the clitoris unnecessary. Understudied perhaps. New research suggests it’s important for reproduction purposes.
The clitoris is an important part of reproduction, not just pleasure - Insider

 

[SomeRandom]

As much as I understand why, you just simply can't.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the word trans man or trans woman or women or men....

Even if people do find something wrong with it there are still going to be the medical aspect of things to consider as doctors need to know what sex you are. Not that they couldn't identify you in the first place by your bone structure at the offset and other telltale signs.

Alternatively I kind of agree that we could be much better off if we just used our names and not our sex.

I don’t know if gender abolition necessarily gets rid of words like male or female. They would exist more for medical purposes than casual speech. It just means that there’s less emphasis on say blue being associated with boys for example. Or girls, whatever the case may be where you live. It would be just another colour. With people free to associate with it without it being a gendered thing. Gender expressions just being expressions, with people just doing what they want without being labelled as male or female or what have you.
At least that’s what I think is being proposed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wouldn’t call the clitoris unnecessary. Understudied perhaps. New research suggests it’s important for reproduction purposes.
The clitoris is an important part of reproduction, not just pleasure - Insider

That doesn't indicate it is necessary, rather something that aids in reproduction.

 

[SomeRandom]

That doesn't indicate it is necessary, rather something that aids in reproduction.

I’d call anything that aids reproduction necessary. Or at least functional. It’s like when we used to think the appendix was just a useless byproduct of evolution. But removing it without proper cause resulted in issues for the person.
The clitoris is sometimes removed in religious rites. But it causes unnecessary issues for the woman in question. So clearly it’s something that “should” be there.