FEMINIST ONLY: Gender abolition and trans identity

[SomeRandom]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

 

[VoidCat]

I have a gender.Most assume I don't because I'm nonbinary. I don't want gender abolished just more acceptance of people like me. Also a lot of TERFs say abolish gender but hate transpeople

 

[Left Coast]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

What's gender abolition? Completely doing away with the concept of gender?

 

[VoidCat]

What's gender abolition? Completely doing away with the concept of gender?

yes

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

I hate idea, and for many reasons*. One, their are sex differences that are neurologically and biologically based. This is what leads to gender in the first place, but also is what makes some people trans, when the body and brain aren't congruent. For trans people, this is to basically erase massive parts of our pain, and emphasises the dysphoria part. Those differences, both physical and cultural, are why gender dysphoria can be agonizing, because of physical bits we are denied where we are drawn to, the physiological amd neurological part of it.
And, really, life would be miserably boring without gender. Not that it needs enforces, but that the two sexes do act, look, and think differently makes life interesting. But we fortunately get that spice in life.
*anither reason, I truly believe, is the illiberal pc libs want to avoid having their own discomfort around transgender people brought up. We used to say things like GG/Genetic Girl, but in a PC world, where they are reminded with unpleasant things with such terms, confuse the language, soften it, weaken it, and now its "cis gender" and I'm reading an article from a college professor who has her students where a pair of jeans of the opposite sex to shot the "differences are mostly just cultural," sanitizing "triggering" ideas, languages, and words, so that in the end liberals get to pat themselves in the back for feeling good about feeling superior while pretending to care about people but utterly not concerned about them (i believe the outline of my shadow wouldn't bother me so much if this weren't true).

 

[crossfire]

I'm not for gender abolition. Gender expression is basically a Persona expression, and abolishing it would repress everything into the Anima/Animus, the mirror of the Persona, which would likely create untold psychological problems for many people.

 

[SomeRandom]

I have a gender.Most assume I don't because I'm nonbinary. I don't want gender abolished just more acceptance of people like me. Also a lot of TERFs say abolish gender but hate transpeople

Okay I’ve heard of non binary before, but I think I’m more familiar with “gender fluidity.” In fact one of the YouTubers I frequently watch presents as both (switching between the two during videos), I think because sometimes they feel more comfortable presenting as one or the other. I’ve never been rude enough to ask, really.
But if I may enquire, what exactly are non binary identities and how you feel about your identity? I hear the phrase often but I don’t know much about them. It? Err you know what I mean

 

[SomeRandom]

I hate idea, and for many reasons*. One, their are sex differences that are neurologically and biologically based. This is what leads to gender in the first place, but also is what makes some people trans, when the body and brain aren't congruent. For trans people, this is to basically erase massive parts of our pain, and emphasises the dysphoria part. Those differences, both physical and cultural, are why gender dysphoria can be agonizing, because of physical bits we are denied where we are drawn to, the physiological amd neurological part of it.
And, really, life would be miserably boring without gender. Not that it needs enforces, but that the two sexes do act, look, and think differently makes life interesting. But we fortunately get that spice in life.
*anither reason, I truly believe, is the illiberal pc libs want to avoid having their own discomfort around transgender people brought up. We used to say things like GG/Genetic Girl, but in a PC world, where they are reminded with unpleasant things with such terms, confuse the language, soften it, weaken it, and now its "cis gender" and I'm reading an article from a college professor who has her students where a pair of jeans of the opposite sex to shot the "differences are mostly just cultural," disconforting and "triggering" ideas, languages, and words, the liberals gets to pat themselves in the back for feeling good about feeling superior while pretending to care about people but utterly not concerned about them (i believe the outline of my shadow wouldn'tbother me so much if this weren't true).

I thought “cisgender” was a thing from sexology in the 90s?

I am still baffled by what Americans refer to as “liberals.” You describe them as the sort that would be labelled an “SJW” but I thought that was just a dismissive term by your conservatives??
Also while I have your ear, I commonly encounter this phrase “liberals aren’t the same as the left.” I thought the liberal party was your leftist party (granted even your left would be considered centre left everywhere else in the Western world and some parts of liberal Europe.)
I’m afraid I’m a little confused.

 

[Curious George]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

I am happy to move our culture towards a less gendered one.

I imagine this might have some negative impacts on individuals, but believe that the benefit to our society outweigh these.

Never fear, i wouldn't anticipate that our society is ready to make such a jump anytime soon. So, while many incremental steps are required for this, none of us are likely to be around for the realization of such a goal. Therefore, i can't imagine pursuing such a path would have any negative impact on living today.

 

[crossfire]

Okay I’ve heard of non binary before, but I think I’m more familiar with “gender fluidity.” In fact one of the YouTubers I frequently watch presents as both (switching between the two during videos), I think because sometimes they feel more comfortable presenting as one or the other. I’ve never been rude enough to ask, really.
But if I may enquire, what exactly are non binary identities and how you feel about your identity? I hear the phrase often but I don’t know much about them. It? Err you know what I mean

Non binary might be best summed up as "trangressors of binary distinctions," violating the stereotypes/rules of masculine and feminine. One of many possible examples might be someone wearing a full beard, a pink tutu, a jeweled tiara, and combat boots.

 

[SomeRandom]

Non binary might be best summed up as "trangressors of binary distinctions," violating the stereotypes/rules of masculine and feminine. One of many possible examples might be someone wearing a full beard, a pink tutu, a jeweled tiara, and combat boots.

Hmm sounds like my uncle after a few too many beers

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Also while I have your ear, I commonly encounter this phrase “liberals aren’t the same as the left.” I thought the liberal party was your leftist party (granted even your left would be considered centre left everywhere else in the Western world and some parts of liberal Europe.)
I’m afraid I’m a little confused.

I'm afraid the more you understand the more complicated it gets. But, in a nutshell, here there is no progressive or liberal party, there is no Liberal there are the Democrats (and those who think Dems and Libs , who as a group are more centrist/right leaning than, ans who's views also often align with Liberals. On the political compass, this all happens roughly between the X coordinates of about -3 to 3.

I thought “cisgender” was a thing from sexology in the 90s?

I dont know when it cqme from. I just know many terms have changed since I first started communicating with the trans community. Another way its changed, is MAD and FAD (Fe/Male at Birth) became "assigned (fe)male at birth." Which doesn't really work because we were assigned with sex bits amd pieces long before birth. It also makes it sound as if there is some conscious entity and decision behind it, as children are assigned homework, inmates are assigned to cell blokes, and research subjects are randomly assigned to research groups by computer. And, certainly, no is "assigned" an American or Australian or English or Chinese at birth. Our birth is really no more assigned than evolution assigning us with bipedalsims and opposable thumbs. But we don't, and we know it was a natural selection of random chance that evolved us to have them.

You describe them as the sort that would be labelled an “SJW” but I thought that was just a dismissive term by your conservatives??

Liberals often do take on the label of SJW, and it is also a [light] derogatory term referring to those who promote illiberal restrictions and infringements on personal liberties in favor of preventing hurt feelings. It also is typically called PC.
Whatever the term, the only person with thinner skin is Trump, they're about as hypocritical as the religious right, and Ibdo believe much of what they do is tobmake themselves feel better, though they mask their motives under the guise of "social justice" and freedom. And they don't care of they deminish the pains and sufferings of others in their quest of passive-aggressive selfishness and self-centeredness. Just that they look good when they crow to the choir and (they think) when the rest of the world looks upon them (and when the world looks upon them unfavorably they have defenses lined up of internalized bigotry of others).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

One of many possible examples might be someone wearing a full beard, a pink tutu, a jeweled tiara, and combat boots.

The children of Twisted Sister and Kiss?

 

[osgart]

Add more genders. Genders are real!

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm afraid the more you understand the more complicated it gets. But, in a nutshell, here there is no progressive or liberal party, there is no Liberal there are the Democrats (and those who think Dems and Libs , who as a group are more centrist/right leaning than, ans who's views also often align with Liberals. On the political compass, this all happens roughly between the X coordinates of about -3 to 3.

You know for a country so ready to boast and even “defend” freedom, your political landscape looks scarily like fascism. Not that my country is any better, of course. Just that it’s weird. I mean even your patriotism from the outside looks weirdly like the slave worship to Big Brother, which is ironic given how distrustful of the government Americans seem to be.

I dont know when it cqme from. I just know many terms have changed since I first started communicating with the trans community. Another way its changed, is MAD and FAD (Fe/Male at Birth) became "assigned (fe)male at birth." Which doesn't really work because we were assigned with sex bits amd pieces long before birth. It also makes it sound as if there is some conscious entity and decision behind it, as children are assigned homework, inmates are assigned to cell blokes, and research subjects are randomly assigned to research groups by computer. And, certainly, no is "assigned" an American or Australian or English or Chinese at birth. Our birth is really no more assigned than evolution assigning us with bipedalsims and opposable thumbs. But we don't, and we know it was a natural selection of random chance that evolved us to have them.


Liberals often do take on the label of SJW, and it is also a [light] derogatory term referring to those who promote illiberal restrictions and infringements on personal liberties in favor of preventing hurt feelings. It also is typically called PC.
Whatever the term, the only person with thinner skin is Trump, they're about as hypocritical as the religious right, and Ibdo believe much of what they do is tobmake themselves feel better, though they mask their motives under the guise of "social justice" and freedom. And they don't care of they deminish the pains and sufferings of others in their quest of passive-aggressive selfishness and self-centeredness. Just that they look good when they crow to the choir and (they think) when the rest of the world looks upon them (and when the world looks upon them unfavorably they have defenses lined up of internalized bigotry of others).

Oh that’s like what you guys call “virtue signalling” right?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not for gender abolition. Gender expression is basically a Persona expression, and abolishing it would repress everything into the Anima/Animus, the mirror of the Persona, which would likely create untold psychological problems for many people.

I imagine this might have some negative impacts on individuals, but believe that the benefit to our society outweigh these.

I doubt. Expressions of gender, to use a very broad expression, seem so basic and fundamnetal to sexually reproducing species that even non-ape animals display them. Men tend to act one way, women another. It's also true in chimp and bonobo culture. Amd in the human world, i have reports from parents of various backgrounds try to raise their kids in a gender neutral environment, but boys are boys and girls are girls and our most basic neurological programming/operating system includes sex and gender. Its very likely how female-to-male transgender people sometimes report feeling a pseudo phantom penis sort of thing (not really phantom limb, since it was never their, but as far as whatvis felt it sounds basically the same).
It's also a tremendous aspect of how we socialize. From greetings to topics discussed, people's behavior changes based on if they percieve you as male or female.
And in my opinion a wonderful part of life. It would be so boring and dull if we were all basically the same. And, the nature of human female breasts suggests sex/gendered differences arent going anywhere.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You know for a country so ready to boast and even “defend” freedom, your political landscape looks scarily like fascism.

It is my opinion they must constantly tell themselves they are free until their ears ring from screaming it so they can forget the fact they aren't.
We also never really fully got over the Cold War pro-America nationalism, though it is a "watered down" version of the "watered down" version at the end of the war I knew grewing up (and it really amazes me that people who had far more time to learn hating Russia than I did were so quick to forgive and forget when it came to Trump). Do consider, many events such as school and community childrens sporting events begin with the national anthem. It's still major taboo to violate it.

 

[SomeRandom]

It is my opinion they must constantly tell themselves they are free until their ears ring from screaming it so they can forget the fact they aren't.
We also never really fully got over the Cold War pro-America nationalism, though it is a "watered down" version of the "watered down" version at the end of the war I knew grewing up (and it really amazes me that people who had far more time to learn hating Russia than I did were so quick to forgive and forget when it came to Trump). Do consider, many events such as school and community childrens sporting events begin with the national anthem. It's still major taboo to violate it.

School sports events? Damn! I mean we’d have the national anthem for like primary school assemblies, but I suspect that was just to ensure we knew all the words. Lol
Heck we even dropped the second half of the anthem entirely. We’re just that lazy I guess?

 

[Curious George]

I doubt. Expressions of gender, to use a very broad expression, seem so basic and fundamnetal to sexually reproducing species that even non-ape animals display them. Men tend to act one way, women another. It's also true in chimp and bonobo culture. Amd in the human world, i have reports from parents of various backgrounds try to raise their kids in a gender neutral environment, but boys are boys and girls are girls and our most basic neurological programming/operating system includes sex and gender. Its very likely how female-to-male transgender people sometimes report feeling a pseudo phantom penis sort of thing (not really phantom limb, since it was never their, but as far as whatvis felt it sounds basically the same).
It's also a tremendous aspect of how we socialize. From greetings to topics discussed, people's behavior changes based on if they percieve you as male or female.
And in my opinion a wonderful part of life. It would be so boring and dull if we were all basically the same. And, the nature of human female breasts suggests sex/gendered differences arent going anywhere.

You understand that gender abolition doesn't mean getting rid of these expressions, just changing our society so any given expression is not seen as male or female exclusively

 

[Tiberius]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

I don't think anyone is trying to abolish the idea of gender. I think it's more that people should be allowed to identify as they wish, even if that means they don't go by any particular gender.