FEMINIST ONLY: Gender abolition and trans identity

[Emsy]

The implication of:



Is very much that we ought not discuss this topic as doing so indicates taking gender theory "out of control."

I find that to be a pretty clumsy, desperately reaching interpretation of yours. As if I'm trying to "shut down" conversation or something.

I think people should be free to discuss whatever they want. I just happen to think that gender theory is a pseudo-science which has been blown out of proportion in recent years; in doing so, it's been a waste of time and energy for the proponents of its more liberal principles.

 

[Emsy]

But why go that direction, if not to denigrate non binary and trans identities?

Did I say that people identifying as "dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms" is necessarily wrong, harmful or degenerate?

I really don't think that I did.

 

[Emsy]

The equipment that a person has in their pants isn't always the best place to start when it comes to deciding what gender a person is.

Agreed.

Examining a person's chromosomes and biological sex is the optimal place to start when it comes to deciding what gender a person is.

 

[Emsy]

I've found that people only tend to claim to identify as such things when they're being trolls/jerks.

I've also found that just accepting them as whatever they claim to be shuts down their stupidity pretty quickly.

Um, okay?

But if we reel in the discussion to logic and science, your above post is little more than a redundant straw man.

 

[SomeRandom]

Did I say that people identifying as "dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms" is necessarily wrong, harmful or degenerate?

I really don't think that I did.

It was the implication. I used to run in reactionary circles a few years back and I recognise the tactic immediately. But if you think there is intellectual merit in giving legitimacy to such identities, perhaps you could present your argument?

 

[SomeRandom]

Agreed.

Examining a person's chromosomes and biological sex is the optimal place to start when it comes to deciding what gender a person is.

What of people with XY gonadal Dysgenesis? Since you seem to really favour biology. Are they male because they have XY chromosomes? But they are born with external female genitalia and experience normal female puberty, when the gonads are surgically removed (as recommended by actual biologists and medical professionals.)
So does that mean they’re not fully female since they have a Y chromosome and external gonads? But does their external female genitalia cancel our claims that they are biologically male?
Which is biologically correct for a person with Swyer Syndrome?

Let’s go further

People with XXXX syndrome?
People with only one chromosome?
People with three?
What genders should we assign these people?
Swyer syndrome
Tetrasomy X - Wikipedia

You are aware of course that the chromosomes aren’t considered to be an exclusive dichotomy, right?
Hell, I remember having to write down the various combinations back in like grade 10
X, XX, XY, XYX, XXY, YXY, YYX, XXXX, YXX
Why would we focus on chromosomes and sex characteristics when it’s just not clear cut at all?

Not that I think such characteristics should define a person’s gender, which is seperate in terms of both definition and discussed in academia.

 

[Tiberius]

Agreed.

Examining a person's chromosomes and biological sex is the optimal place to start when it comes to deciding what gender a person is.

Huh? You agree with me saying that what equipment a person has is NOT the best place to start, and then immediately saying it IS the best place to start.

You are contradicting yourself.

In any case, the physical equipment a person has is not the best place to start, and a person's chromosomes are not reliable either. A person can be XX with a penis, or XY with a vagina. And there are a whole bunch of chromosomal conditions that mean a person has something OTHER than XX or XY.

 

[Curious George]

I find that to be a pretty clumsy, desperately reaching interpretation of yours. As if I'm trying to "shut down" conversation or something.

I think people should be free to discuss whatever they want. I just happen to think that gender theory is a pseudo-science which has been blown out of proportion in recent years; in doing so, it's been a waste of time and energy for the proponents of its more liberal principles.

I find it to be an accurate description. You are welcome to find it an unfair or a "clumsy, reaching interpretation."

That does little to change it. No, i do not think you were trying to "shut down" the conversation. Rather i think it was a weak attempt to bait and incite discord. I would guess that you do feel as you have represented yourself as feeling. That is not shocking. But if you want to engage in a debate regarding your thoughts on gender studies as a "pseudo science" wherein proponents "waste time and energy," you are welcome to start a thread.

I would advise having a little more substance to support your opinion, but that, of course, isn't required.

 

[SomeRandom]

The left wants a big government nanny state with population control. Both goals would be easier to accomplish, if you could turn all the people into obedient sheep; not human. Doing away with natural gender; male and female, is designed to remove the natural and genetic polarization of male and female, from which passion for procreation arises, thereby neutering a basic individual drive, in exchange for better social conformity; fight procreation in favor of abortion.

Male and female is natural. All the rest of the "genders" is based on free will and choice. These extra genders are no different from wearing a unique tattoo, over your natural body, in an attempt to pretend specialty individuality, that also conforms to the needs of the sheep model.

For example, if you were a naturally born and gifted athlete, but you were told athletics is passe' or taboo, you willl need to repress ti and may try to willfully gain a new self identify, by being a nerd. Since being a nerd is less innate, one will need more doctoring of their persona, so others can see where the actor is heading. If this is ambiguous we will define a new gender. This new you, even if functional, will lack the same natural spontaneity of being a natural athlete, since being athletic was based on an innate unconscious foundation. Instead one will have a conscious persona that the ego creates and cultures reinforces. This is easier to control and is more predictable.

If you surveyed of all the "genders", except the two natural classics; male and female, the vast majority will say they have an affiliation with left wing politics. This is not coincidence. Gender tabooing is part of the left wing programing package. This experiment has backfired on the left, since the gender tattoo is causing an unexpected round of small group individuality; gang colors. Now the goal is to backtrack away from this programming and start again at the ole drawing board.

I dunno. I follow a lot of “lefties” and all of them would call BS on your argument.
They hate the government, they hate gender conformity and they hate transphobia.
That said I’m not American and both your political parties seem fascist to me.
So this may just be me being confused by your outright fashy politics.

 

[crossfire]

<...>
If you surveyed of all the "genders", except the two natural classics; male and female, the vast majority will say they have an affiliation with left wing politics. This is not coincidence. Gender tabooing is part of the left wing programing package. This experiment has backfired on the left, since the gender tattoo is causing an unexpected round of small group individuality; gang colors. Now the goal is to backtrack away from this programming and start again at the ole drawing board.

If you classify "left wing politics" as "social liberals," and "right wing politics" as "social conservatives," I would agree, since social conservatism seeks to enforce the social status quo in regard to gender. If you classify "left wing politics" economically, I would also agree, as those outside of the traditional genders, especially trans and non binary, face the most economic discrimination as well.

As feminists, this is something we should keep in mind, as women have had to struggle in both of these regards as well.

In regard to "gender tabooing," I dunno. By definition, social conservatives are more into tabooing non traditional gender expressions. Even traditional feminine gender expressions get tabooed by "blaming the victim for what she was wearing."

 

[crossfire]

Does that also extend to anything one's imagination desires?

Like do you believe that people should also be able to identify as dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms and have those identities validated by the public as well?

I mean, ultimately this does boil down to biological science and an apparent shift away from it.

No one has suggested that gender identity be stretched beyond the realm of humanity, nor has the OP suggested it.

That doesn't matter.

I just did.

It's called adding to conversation.

I would classify the dragon and vampire identities as fetishes.

The single cell life form might be interesting to expand on from a biological standpoint, as microorganisms within the human body outnumber human cells 10 to 1 in number, but compose only 1 to 3 percent by mass. How would such a gender expression manifest? Would it cover transgender and genderfluid, as bacteria can switch from female to male, with a female becoming male after she mates. Males can become females through spontaneous mutations. Bacteria can also reproduce asexually through division, so would this also cover asexuals as well? Fascinating.

 

[crossfire]

Does that also extend to anything one's imagination desires?

Like do you believe that people should also be able to identify as dragons, vampires, seals or single cell lifeforms and have those identities validated by the public as well?

I mean, ultimately this does boil down to biological science and an apparent shift away from it.

I would classify the dragon and vampire identities as fetishes.

The single cell life form might be interesting to expand on from a biological standpoint, as microorganisms within the human body outnumber human cells 10 to 1 in number, but compose only 1 to 3 percent by mass. How would such a gender expression manifest? Would it cover transgender and genderfluid, as bacteria can switch from female to male, with a female becoming male after she mates. Males can become females through spontaneous mutations. Bacteria can also reproduce asexually through division, so would this also cover asexuals as well? Fascinating.

I have to thank you for this. This has given me a whole new avenue to explore regarding "third gender" in some societies. The internal microbial perspective and possible epigenetic factors resulting from this.

 

[Bird123]

Which is great in philosophical discourse. But humans aren’t going to be like that. It’s simply not reality. We can all try to be forgiving and charitable but for most people such goals are too lofty to fulfil. That’s just life. No sense in trying to attain nirvana on earth whilst ignoring human behaviour patterns.

So are you saying you can never choose differently? One can cross the world taking baby steps. You might just surprise yourself. You might also be surprised how others change around you once you do.

Another thing you might not realize is that there are an army of people out in the world who need something as little as a loving kind word.

Unconditional Love will draw people to you. They won't be hating. Don't believe me? Look at man's best friend, a dog. Isn't there something you can learn? Isn't there something you can teach? Isn't this better than anger, hating, blaming and so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear?

WE all have the power to choose what we deem important. One can choose to nurture what we want everyone to be rather than hating and condemning others for what they are not and have not Discovered yet. Are you sure you have nothing to teach? I think you do only use Unconditional love along that path.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I know it might not be easy, however I have found few things in life worthwhile come easy. It's what you choose to do that counts!!

 

[SomeRandom]

So are you saying you can never choose differently? One can cross the world taking baby steps. You might just surprise yourself. You might also be surprised how others change around you once you do.

Another thing you might not realize is that there are an army of people out in the world who need something as little as a loving kind word.

Unconditional Love will draw people to you. They won't be hating. Don't believe me? Look at man's best friend, a dog. Isn't there something you can learn? Isn't there something you can teach? Isn't this better than anger, hating, blaming and so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear?

WE all have the power to choose what we deem important. One can choose to nurture what we want everyone to be rather than hating and condemning others for what they are not and have not Discovered yet. Are you sure you have nothing to teach? I think you do only use Unconditional love along that path.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I know it might not be easy, however I have found few things in life worthwhile come easy. It's what you choose to do that counts!!

I might be able to, but I can’t speak for the rest of humanity.

 

[Bird123]

I might be able to, but I can’t speak for the rest of humanity.

It doesn't matter what everyone else chooses to do!!!

When you get there, teach others. I will start at my end of the world. You start at yours. I know we can touch lives that will span generations.

Do not police others. Guide them toward Greatness!!

That's what I see!! It's very clear!!

 

[SomeRandom]

It doesn't matter what everyone else chooses to do!!!

When you get there, teach others. I will start at my end of the world. You start at yours. I know we can touch lives that will span generations.

Do not police others. Guide them toward Greatness!!

That's what I see!! It's very clear!!

I can’t even guide myself how can I guide others?

 

[Bird123]

I can’t even guide myself how can I guide others?

In a multilevel classroom, everyone has learned lessons others have not learned yet. You are no exception. If you can not find any lessons to teach others, start with this one. You can discover so much on that journey.

 

[SomeRandom]

In a multilevel classroom, everyone has learned lessons others have not learned yet. You are no exception. If you can not find any lessons to teach others, start with this one. You can discover so much on that journey.

I get what you’re saying. I may be too insecure to put it into practice

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I’ve heard about gender abolition for a while now. My tomboy self kind of likes the idea, really.
But if that were to be put into effect, would that negatively affect people who are trans? By that I mean, isn’t a large part of feeling validated in one’s identity a bit more reliant on gender expressions?
I don’t want to be presumptuous, so I’m asking more so for clarification. Because I’m genuinely curious.

From what I understand, gender abolitionism isn't about suppressing all expressions of gender, but about eliminating the idea of "men" and "women" as distinct classes. Individual gender expression would be fine, but would be no more of a marker of one's status in society as, say, eye colour is.

If that's what you're talking about, I think this is fine.

 

[Tambourine]

I've encountered gender abolitionists who were still attached to the idea of binary biological sexes, so some of them definitely have issues with transgender people. But I don't know how representative these people are of the general concept/ideology.