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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What are you thinking it is evidence of? Because the claim is that Baha'u'llah is the return of every promised one of every religion. Is there evidence of that?

Evidence is use as proof.

This OP made it known that all Messengers, all Revelations and all the Books are appliable as evidence.

Bringing forth Proofs from the evidence is not the intention of this OP. The OP is just to confirm what is valid evidence.

Regards Tony
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Evidence is use as proof.

This OP made it known that all Messengers, all Revelations and all the Books are appliable as evidence.

Bringing forth Proofs from the evidence is not the intention of this OP. The OP is just to confirm what is valid evidence.

Regards Tony

You're kidding right? Because you stated back near the start of the thread that you wouldn't debate if the evidence was valid.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually, if he can prove that Bahaullah is God (and I'm not sure how he can do that), he can then point to the Baha'i writings and say that they're evidence of God. Where I disagreed with people, was I thought Tony was saving the "proving Bahaullah is God" stuff for a much later time.

This OP was only to determine what is valid evidence. Not to provide proofs from the evidence, though at times to confirm evidence, some proofs need to be stated.

All the best,

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Okay. so your own statistics seem to show that there is nothing wrong with premarital sex.
No, they do not show that. They show that most people engage in it, but that does not mean there is nothing wrong with it.
I think that even your 41% divorce rate for first time marriages is a bit high. People that get divorced often do so multiple times.
That is probably true, and I think that statistics would bear that out.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're kidding right? Because you stated back near the start of the thread that you wouldn't debate if the evidence was valid.

All comments made were to offer that this OP is not about providing proofs from what is valid evidence.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are familiar with only some of them. And I have my doubts about your claim. A con artist does this so well that their targets rarely see it. You did not see it with your leader.
You are correct that a con artist does this so well that their targets rarely see it.
You are incorrect in saying that Baha'u'lalh was a con artist. Nothing could be more absurd or illogical because He had nothing to gain by a con and He did nothing but sacrifice everything for God and suffer at the hands of His enemies for His entire 40-year mission. Obviously you do not know any Baha'i history.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, this thread is about the Baha'i faith. If you want to include others then go ahead, but you are going to have to remake a lot of your arguments.
The thread is about the Baha'i Faith but the post to which I was responding was not about the Baha'i Faith.
It was about Messengers - plural.


Trailblazer said: Nobody can EVER demonstrate God since God is not available for a demonstration.
God sends Messengers since they are both divine and human so they can demonstrate God to humans.
Knowledge of God comes to humans through the Messengers since it cannot come to us any other way.

Subduction Zone said: You do not seem to realize that you contradicted yourself again. But at any rate those messengers all look to be terribly flawed. Why can't God do any better?
#660 Subduction Zone, Today at 8:22 PM
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
All comments made were to offer that this OP is not about providing proofs from what is valid evidence.

Regards Tony

That makes no sense to me.

If you're trying to claim that you are willing to discuss if it's valid evidence then this post contradicts that.....

Maybe it is possible that some will see that evidence is evidence, albeit not what they would want to see as evidence for God.

There are many types of evidence and it is offered in this OP, that the evidence God gives humanity is, 1) The Person, 2 the Revelation and 3 the Message.

So the debate would not be about if it is evidence, but what does that evidence show us.

Regards Tony
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
This OP is to finalise once and for all what is Evidence of God. After this OP there will be no need for anyone to demand evidence, as it will have been provided.

This OP is applicable to all Faiths Moses and Torah, Jesus New Testament, Muhammad Koran, etc), but I will use what has been offered in the Bahai writings.

So Evidence of the Hidden God.

"He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

After the Manifestations have left the earth, the Word remains as the proof

"Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful." Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah

So the trial begins, the evidence is already boxed, the defendant/s stand in front of all Humanity

So what can be provided are the links to all the proof given by the Manifestations (defendants).

The person of the Manifestation is one line of evidence, Character references are available.

The Guidence/Wrirings given by them is the other line of Evidence left, that can be linked.

That is all the defendant will give as proof of God.

Now the key here is, we all get to be the jury and the judge. The Manifestations will individually submit to your verdict, so the burden of Justice now falls upon each individual.

Regards Tony

Try arguing from the OPPOSITE, that is, there is evidence the universe created itself before it existed, and for no reason whatsoever.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
The universe is not finely tuned, in fact it is chaos from the quantum right up to solar systems, galaxies, galactic clusters.

And unless evidence will stand up in court i do not consider it evidence..

"I have spoken."

Yes, it's super finely tuned. Adjust gravity just a bit and the universe as we know it simply won't work. Same with the other variables.
The 'work around' is to posit many universes with different variables - but this can't be tested so it isn't science.
Even something as simple as the moon's presence is uncanny - a planet dubbed Thea hit the earth in the exact spot to tilt the earth to form seasons, and leave some of itself as a large moon to stabilize the earth's orbit. Same with the meterorite which hit the Yucatan 65m years ago - any other spot and the earth wouldn't have faced the ecological upheaval of sulphur pollution, hence the world would be ruled by saurians to this day.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes, it's super finely tuned. Adjust gravity just a bit and the universe as we know it simply won't work. Same with the other variables.
The 'work around' is to posit many universes with different variables - but this can't be tested so it isn't science.
Even something as simple as the moon's presence is uncanny - a planet dubbed Thea hit the earth in the exact spot to tilt the earth to form seasons, and leave some of itself as a large moon to stabilize the earth's orbit. Same with the meterorite which hit the Yucatan 65m years ago - any other spot and the earth wouldn't have faced the ecological upheaval of sulphur pollution, hence the world would be ruled by saurians to this day.
No, that is wrong. It is a misinterpretation of those numbers. Sean Carroll did an excellent debunk of that argument in a debate with William Lane Craig.

As to your claim of the asteroid strike: Citation needed.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The thread is about the Baha'i Faith but the post to which I was responding was not about the Baha'i Faith.
It was about Messengers - plural.


Trailblazer said: Nobody can EVER demonstrate God since God is not available for a demonstration.
God sends Messengers since they are both divine and human so they can demonstrate God to humans.
Knowledge of God comes to humans through the Messengers since it cannot come to us any other way.

Subduction Zone said: You do not seem to realize that you contradicted yourself again. But at any rate those messengers all look to be terribly flawed. Why can't God do any better?
#660 Subduction Zone, Today at 8:22 PM
You just contradicted yourself again. You still don't see your error.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes, it's super finely tuned. Adjust gravity just a bit and the universe as we know it simply won't work. Same with the other variables.
The 'work around' is to posit many universes with different variables - but this can't be tested so it isn't science.
Even something as simple as the moon's presence is uncanny - a planet dubbed Thea hit the earth in the exact spot to tilt the earth to form seasons, and leave some of itself as a large moon to stabilize the earth's orbit. Same with the meterorite which hit the Yucatan 65m years ago - any other spot and the earth wouldn't have faced the ecological upheaval of sulphur pollution, hence the world would be ruled by saurians to this day.

Natural occurrence given the mass of the universe. Which incidentally is expanding ant an ever increasing rate. I.e gravity is being overpowered by whatever is causing the expansion.

Oh and the moon is moving away from earth by about 3.8 cm per year. Gravity from other sources is overwhelming the gravity of earth
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You are correct that a con artist does this so well that their targets rarely see it.
You are incorrect in saying that Baha'u'lalh was a con artist. Nothing could be more absurd or illogical because He had nothing to gain by a con and He did nothing but sacrifice everything for God and suffer at the hands of His enemies for His entire 40-year mission. Obviously you do not know any Baha'i history.
How do you know? And he gained a significant following during his lifetime. So your claim of nothing to gain is shot.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Natural occurrence given the mass of the universe. Which incidentally is expanding ant an ever increasing rate. I.e gravity is being overpowered by whatever is causing the expansion.

Oh and the moon is moving away from earth by about 3.8 cm per year. Gravity from other sources is overwhelming the gravity of earth
The Moon. Is moving away due to Earth's rotation. The Earth's rotation has slowed over the eons as the tides have slowly added momentum to the Moon's orbit. Given enough time the Earth would become tidally locked to the Moon with our day equaling its orbital period. But the Sun will expand and engulf us before that happens.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes, it's super finely tuned. Adjust gravity just a bit and the universe as we know it simply won't work. Same with the other variables.
The 'work around' is to posit many universes with different variables - but this can't be tested so it isn't science.
Even something as simple as the moon's presence is uncanny - a planet dubbed Thea hit the earth in the exact spot to tilt the earth to form seasons, and leave some of itself as a large moon to stabilize the earth's orbit. Same with the meterorite which hit the Yucatan 65m years ago - any other spot and the earth wouldn't have faced the ecological upheaval of sulphur pollution, hence the world would be ruled by saurians to this day.

The fact that a planet hit earth, in fact the fact earth was formed in the first place refutes the finely tuned argument
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The Moon. Is moving away due to Earth's rotation. The Earth's rotation has slowed over the eons as the tides have slowly added momentum to the Moon's orbit. Given enough time the Earth would become tidally locked to the Moon with our day equaling its orbital period. But the Sun will expand and engulf us before that happens.

Tidal forces impose gravity
 
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