Everyone Who Claims Homosexuality is a Sin is Bisexual

[sojourner]

ow do my beliefs 'reflect' anything at all on you?

Because what you believe is part of a much larger system that wields power. That power affects people. Its voice joins the chorus of many who believe as you do, and that voice harms the gay community through dehumanizing messages. Additionally, you identify as Christian. I too am Christian, so what you say as a Christian reflects on the rest of the body — including me. That’s how the body of Christ works.

They are, after all, my beliefs and not yours. I am not demanding that you change your beliefs to suit mine.
But you are demanding that I change mine to suit yours, and calling me names because I disagree.

You don’t have to change your beliefs. I don’t care if you believe that robots are stealing your luggage at the airport. But when someone comes out and states publicly (with some credibility behind it) that they believe you’re “wrong” because of who you are, it stings, doesn’t it? Ever since I called you out, your posts have become terse, strained, and outraged. Imagine how it must feel to be told that who you are is sin.

Believe as you want. But the moment you bray your beliefs in public, they become the public’s affair and subject to critique.

 

[sojourner]

That is absolutely their right

No, it really isn’t. No one — from the Pope to Joseph Smith to Rootie Kazootie has the right to pass public judgment on you in that way. That’s the kind of compartmentalism that kills covenant relationship.

I do not insist that they change their beliefs, or their practices, because *I* think that they are wrong. They should do what they believe is right.

You should. Discrimination is discrimination. It’s no different than MLK calling out colleagues for not speaking out on equal rights.

And that is the choice for those who disagree with my religious beliefs. If you don't agree with them, don't join the belief system you disagree with

The deception is that we’re separate systems. The spiritual reality is that we’re all really part of the same system. To quote St. George Costanza: “ A George divided against itself, cannot stand.”

 

[charlie sc]

Look, charlie. As a Mormon I am not welcome to be called "Christian' by evangelicals or Catholics. I am asked not to take communion in their churches. I am restricted in many ways from their belief systems...and that includes many systems that welcome and allow gay marriages. That is absolutely their right.

Look, dianaiad, the difference here is that your belief is by choice. Unless, of course, you think your belief is not by choice ?

I do not insist that they change their beliefs, or their practices, because *I* think that they are wrong. They should do what they believe is right.

Sure. I don't support this type of ostracism either.

But you think I that the CoJCoJCS change it's basic doctrines and practices because YOU want it to...because it is currently politically correct to be 'inclusive.'

No, I don't expect or want you or CoJCoJCS to change anything, but don't expect some kind of praise or gratitude. You are part of a group that ostracises groups in a discriminatory way(the same as the past). Guilt by association is not a thing in my book, but that's not exactly what's going on here; you are actively supporting this type of discrimination. Coolz.

I have just been forced out of a group that I have been a member of for over ten years because its founder decided that he would not allow anybody to post a knitting/crochet/weaving pattern that seems to support Trump, because that is supporting white supremacism. At the same time, one can purchase patterns for P*ssy hats and F*ck Trump patterns. No conservative can defend him/herself on that forum, or s/he WILL be banned. It's his forum. He can make any rules he wants to. I have no right to force him to change his rules to suit me...but I CAN leave. And I did.

And that is the choice for those who disagree with my religious beliefs. If you don't agree with them, don't join the belief system you disagree with.

That's it. That is the choice for everybody.

I get what you're saying here and religion/politics have always been sensitive subjects. Nonetheless, it's not exactly the same as homosexuality. One is by choice the other is not. This distinction is only as important as the emphasis religion places on it. No one cares about eye colour, but at some point being left handed was evil. The problem for homosexuals is that they cannot stop being a homosexual and someone's love life is generally quite an important part of their life and anyone's life. So, depending on how much stigma exists, it can be quite detrimental for these people.

Demonizing those people who disagree with you is not, and has never been, the answer.

I like you dianaiad, but your logic here seems to have backfired. I understand you used it for disagreeing with a belief and consequently being ostracised or demonised, however, this is exactly what's going on with homosexuals. They disagree on the exclusivity of marriage. Granted, they are excluded and demonised even before they disagreed, but does that really matter? They are still being demonised.

 

[dianaiad]

Because what you believe is part of a much larger system that wields power. That power affects people. Its voice joins the chorus of many who believe as you do, and that voice harms the gay community through dehumanizing messages. Additionally, you identify as Christian. I too am Christian, so what you say as a Christian reflects on the rest of the body — including me. That’s how the body of Christ works.

Yeah? Go ask your pastor if Mormons are Christians.

I don't have to wait for your response, because I know what it will be.

You don’t have to change your beliefs. I don’t care if you believe that robots are stealing your luggage at the airport. But when someone comes out and states publicly (with some credibility behind it) that they believe you’re “wrong” because of who you are, it stings, doesn’t it?

G'head. If you didn't believe I was wrong, you'd be a member of the CoJCoLDS.

My only objection is that you seem to want to force me to change my beliefs...or rather, you want to force the CoJCoLDS to change its doctrine and practices to approve and accept you WITHIN our doctrine and practices, even though you don't share them.

You know, like the government did when they didn't like us being polygamists?

You don't think we are right? Fine. You don't believe we are right. No problem. Just don't tell me that I HAVE to change everything I believe in order to approve of you, even though you will never approve of me, or believe as I do. You simply do not have that authority, or that right.

Remember, I'm not demanding that you (general you...just to prevent another bit of silliness) change YOUR beliefs and actions to accomodate my beliefs.

Ever since I called you out, your posts have become terse, strained, and outraged. Imagine how it must feel to be told that who you are is sin.

I have become terse, strained and outraged for two reasons; one of which actually has no connection to you specifically, or to this topic, except tangentially.

I am 'terse, strained and outraged" because you are DEMANDING that I change EVERYTHING I believe in to accommodate you and your beliefs, when you do not believe as I do, and when you belittle, insult and denigrate me because I believe differently. EVEN though I have made it very clear that I accept gay married couples as who they are, do not discriminate against them in any way, and frankly, never have.

You INSIST that we change our beliefs so that gay married couples may be 'sealed' in our Temples, when there aren't any gay married couples who would want to do that and when I can pretty much guarantee you that I would be asked NOT to take communion in your church, unless your church is a whale of a lot more inclusive than the vast majority of evangelical or orthodox Christian churches. It would require a change of doctrine for us that would change everything about our beliefs. It would destroy them. You say you know about the LDS...how is it that you don't know THAT?

Believe as you want. But the moment you bray your beliefs in public, they become the public’s affair and subject to critique.

"Critique?" Fine.

Calling me prejudiced, with a 'sense of entitlement,' and what next, 'white supremacist?" Others have called me that for the crime of disagreeing with them politically. You have called me names. I haven't done that to you. YOU have told me that I am, basically, evil incarnate for believing differently from you. I have not done that to you.

but I have noticed that many of you don't seem to understand that double standards aren't really good things. You object strenuously because I say that...if one is LDS, then homosexual sex is sinful. You think that is horrible.

But you have no problems at all calling me every horrible name under the heavens. "Entitled,' "discriminatory" "Brayer" "dehumanizer,' discriminatory...what next?

 

[dianaiad]

No, it really isn’t. No one — from the Pope to Joseph Smith to Rootie Kazootie has the right to pass public judgment on you in that way. That’s the kind of compartmentalism that kills covenant relationship.

Yes. It is. The first amendment was written, not to defend those who agree with us, but to defend those with whom we disagree, no matter how obnoxious and objectionable we find it. While I cannot support Casey Forbes and Ravelry by remaining there, that is a private site. He absolutely has the right to express his opinions and to choose who posts on his forum, and what he will allow. So do the folks on CARM, who are, frankly, nastier.

he can say what he wants. I can say what I want. He can run his forum his way. I can choose to leave. ....and speak out elsewhere. THAT is what freedom of speech is all about, sojourner.

You should. Discrimination is discrimination. It’s no different than MLK calling out colleagues for not speaking out on equal rights.

No. I shouldn't...not if I expect to keep MY rights. I can't take them away from those with whom I disagree. I can only argue with them, or attempt to persuade. Insisting that they change to suit me?

No. that's never a good idea.

The deception is that we’re separate systems. The spiritual reality is that we’re all really part of the same system. To quote St. George Costanza: “ A George divided against itself, cannot stand.”

Well, that is your belief...but people do believe different things, and they have the right to say so.

You don't have the right to force ME to change to suit you, and I don't have the right to force, say, Casey Forbes of Ravelry to change to suit me. You can tell me I'm wrong; no problem. Of course you think I'm wrong. Tell me why, use logic, attempt to persuade me away from a belief system you think is wrong.

I can express my opinion of what Ravelry has done (and I have) in many different places and venues, but you will never see me advocate forcing Casey, by law or boycott or whatever, to do what I want for fear that he will lose his business...that's what HE is doing.

I have told you my position on gays and marriage and gay relationships. What I will and will not do in terms of treating them with respect and friendship. That's not enough for you. You insist that I...and my belief system...fundamentally change to accept the actions of people who do not believe as we do, and who wouldn't do so even if we DID do what you wanted.

You have called me names, insulted me...and I have not done any of that to you.

I think that tells the whole story right there.

 

[dianaiad]

I like you dianaiad, but your logic here seems to have backfired. I understand you used it for disagreeing with a belief and consequently being ostracised or demonised, however, this is exactly what's going on with homosexuals. They disagree on the exclusivity of marriage. Granted, they are excluded and demonised even before they disagreed, but does that really matter? They are still being demonised.

charlie, who one finds attractive may not be a choice. It probably isn't. I'm attracted to men. I LIKE men. I loved my husband very much and we had fun in bed.

but he has been dead for 23 years, and I have not remarried. At this point, I won't; lots of reasons, but they all boil down to 'I can't marry."

And my belief system says that sex outside marriage bonds is sinful.

Now really. You tell me what the difference is between me, right now, and a homosexual who shares my belief system? Because I don't see one. I like men. That homosexual is attracted to people of his or her own sex. I feel no sexual attraction to women. That homosexual may or may not feel sexual attraction to the opposite sex, but either way we are in the same situation; neither one of us can, within the parameters of my belief system, marry or have sex with someone outside those bonds of matrimony.

I don't feel a bit discriminated against because of my situation; it is MY choice to abide by my beliefs, as it is that of the homosexual. BEING homosexual is no more 'sinful' than being heterosexual. ACTING upon that attraction may be, according to personal beliefs.

I am no more 'entitled' or 'discriminatory' or ostracizing or any other thing because I say so to a gay person than I am when I think about my own situation. My choice. Mine. Their choice. Theirs.

Just don't be hypocritical about it. And stop demanding that the earth turn the other direction because YOU want the sun to rise in the west.

 

[charlie sc]

Now really. You tell me what the difference is between me, right now, and a homosexual who shares my belief system? Because I don't see one. I like men. That homosexual is attracted to people of his or her own sex. I feel no sexual attraction to women. That homosexual may or may not feel sexual attraction to the opposite sex, but either way we are in the same situation; neither one of us can, within the parameters of my belief system, marry or have sex with someone outside those bonds of matrimony.

If you were both homosexuals, you'd not be different, but you aren't. You can marry for love and attraction and he/she can't That's the difference.

don't feel a bit discriminated against because of my situation; it is MY choice to abide by my beliefs, as it is that of the homosexual. BEING homosexual is no more 'sinful' than being heterosexual. ACTING upon that attraction may be, according to personal beliefs.

I get what you're saying here, but this is like saying, in reverse, heterosexual sex is sinful but being heterosexual is not a sin. Or, being a musician is not sinful but playing an instrument is. They, like being a homosexual, are intricately tied together.

I am no more 'entitled' or 'discriminatory' or ostracizing or any other thing because I say so to a gay person than I am when I think about my own situation. My choice. Mine. Their choice. Theirs.

Just don't be hypocritical about it. And stop demanding that the earth turn the other direction because YOU want the sun to rise in the west.

Ok, well just imagine you weren't allowed to marry a man or have sex with a man under your ideology.

I'm not going to demand anything from you nor do I want you to change. I think you should be who you are. We are discussing this topic as equals and learning from each other. The last thing I want you to do is change. The only thing I want in these forums is intellectually honest conversations with people and this is what I get from you. Sorry if I offended.

 

[sooda]

Actually its self evident except to bisexuals!!!

I have zero idea about sexual choice. I am stuck being hetro sexual and most certainly not by choice.

Are these the same preachers who yammer on about the rapture?

 

[sojourner]

Yeah? Go ask your pastor if Mormons are Christians.

I don't have to wait for your response, because I know what it will be

I am the pastor. I think you are what you say you are.

G'head. If you didn't believe I was wrong, you'd be a member of the CoJCoLDS

No I wouldn’t, because your system of polity doesn’t work for me.

My only objection is that you seem to want to force me to change my beliefs...or rather, you want to force the CoJCoLDS to change its doctrine and practices to approve and accept you WITHIN our doctrine and practices, even though you don't share them

I don’t really care if you accept me or not. And, btw, I’ve been asked by 4 different Mormons to join. I already said that I don’t care what you believe. But when you voice discrimination, you’re going to hear about it. As you put it in another post, that’s my right, and you said you didn’t care about being disagreed with.

You know, like the government did when they didn't like us being polygamists

I notice the church changed it’s stance on that. Public pressure works, just as it has for the LGBTQ community in securing some equal rights.

You don't think we are right

No I don’t — not about this particular issue.

You simply do not have that authority, or that right

I do have the right and the authority as a Christian leader to call out the LDS for its inequitable attitudes and policies. And I have the right to call out discriminatory speech.

Remember, I'm not demanding that you (general you...just to prevent another bit of silliness) change YOUR beliefs and actions to accomodate my beliefs

No, you’re just throwing a fit because you think you’re entitled to discriminate.

and when I can pretty much guarantee you that I would be asked NOT to take communion in your church, unless your church is a whale of a lot more inclusive than the vast majority of evangelical or orthodox Christian churches

You’d be wholeheartedly invited.

You have called me names

No, I’ve not called you one single name. I’ve called out your posts for displaying certain things.

 

[SugarOcean]

You don't condemn homosexuals then. Congrats, you have some sense.

Christians ,well, the reasonable ones(?), know the bible condemns sin. All one's life there is the opportunity to repent of sin and be saved from what comes next, after life, after living a life of sin.
Homosexuality, which in scripture is the act itself, is not the only sin. Heterosexuals who are sexually immoral are condemned as well. Many sins are in the bible.
However, there is only one way to be saved from their cost.

 

[SugarOcean]

That must only be on Sundays because the rest of the week they eat them as if their lives depended upon it.

You eat Christians ?

 

[SugarOcean]

Regarding this topic, that it is none of my concern if humans want to be or are intimate with same gender. That sin is to cause undesired suffering or pain to oneself or another. That the greatest sinner of them all is Creator God. That even if homosexual acts were a sin... natural mercy and love are written in me, and super petty that would be. Who hasn’t sinned either through ignorance, lack of power to control, no will, or no sound moral compass? That I would never desire or consciously allow a blade of grass to be in or go to hell. That it’s not very wise to think something written in a book is truth. That if you or I were homosexuals, in their shoes... we’d be doing just as they are. That I think it would be kind of funny that those whom earnestly had it in their hearts any ill judgement or feeling towards homosexuals, that it would help them grow becoming one themselves and having to deal with some people condemn them left and right. Could go on and on....

Now apply that transference to all other sins. Start with murder.
What is written inside of you, as I had asked you to expound upon from your former post, is amorality.
What a shame.

 

[SugarOcean]

No it doesn’t.

Your semantics dodge doesn't make your false claim true.

 

[dianaiad]

If you were both homosexuals, you'd not be different, but you aren't. You can marry for love and attraction and he/she can't That's the difference.

that's the point. No. I can't. Not for the same reason a gay person can't....although a gay person CAN...s/he just has to leave the belief system. I can't. Period.

come to think of it, the gay person is more able to marry someone s/he loves than I am.

I get what you're saying here, but this is like saying, in reverse, heterosexual sex is sinful but being heterosexual is not a sin. Or, being a musician is not sinful but playing an instrument is. They, like being a homosexual, are intricately tied together.

Only in the way that temptation and giving into it are linked together. If one insists that homosexuals are unable to refrain from having sex because there is something intrinsic about being a homosexual that makes it impossible for one of 'em NOT to have sex...

Well, that's doing a grave disservice to homosexuals, isn't it? Are you telling me that they have less ability to choose their actions than heterosexuals do?

What about Catholics who divorce? According to THEIR belief systems, they may not marry again until their former spouse dies. Where is the difference here between a divorced Catholic and a homosexual Catholic? I don't see one, in terms of the belief system.

Ok, well just imagine you weren't allowed to marry a man or have sex with a man under your ideology.

there are conditions under which that would be true.

There are CERTAINLY conditions in other belief systems where that is true.

I'm not going to demand anything from you nor do I want you to change. I think you should be who you are. We are discussing this topic as equals and learning from each other. The last thing I want you to do is change. The only thing I want in these forums is intellectually honest conversations with people and this is what I get from you. Sorry if I offended.

No offense taken...thanks.

 

[SugarOcean]

Sorry. It’s just not either that easy or that cut and dried.


It’s not all about procreation.

How naive. It is when it comes to survival of a species.
What you and those here who follow your line of thought don't consider is, the scriptures tell the believe in the God that inspired them that homosexual sex is an abomination. A sin.
Just like lying is a sin. Adultery is a sin. Murder is a sin. Theft is a sin. Sex outside of marriage is a sin.
It isn't a democracy.
What these kind of threads do is generate a conflict between two sides. The Christian's who choose to participate are silly in thinking they're going to change anyone and their mind when those people are not of the faith, are hostile to the faith.
While those who are not Christian participate in order to throw rocks at the Christians who do participate, as well as the bible, and God. And that isn't going to change the Christians mind either. After all, we've been martyred for our faith.
A bunch of angry anonymous anti-Christian people in any forum aren't a real threat.
But they are all about exercising their contempt for Christians.

Therefore our sin, would then be to knowingly remain in such a thread and therein give those aforementioned unbelievers, and hostiles, opportunity to continue to sin .
While the takeaway for the Christian is also in two parts. Firstly, we are forgiven for our sin in enabling through our participation sinners to sin more.
And secondly, the blessing for the time we've spent is we get to witness what the unrepentant damned behave as when confronted with the scriptures that tell them so. And that could have been us, had we not found the way. Therefore it is a blessing to witness the contrast of then and now.

 

[dianaiad]

I am the pastor. I think you are what you say you are.


No I wouldn’t, because your system of polity doesn’t work for me.

(grin) that's what I said. If you didn't think we were wrong, you'd be one of us.

I don’t really care if you accept me or not. And, btw, I’ve been asked by 4 different Mormons to join.

Oh, I believe that. We WILL try to convert the world, and we'll ask anybody...and everybody.

We just won't hold a gun to your head to force the issue.

I already said that I don’t care what you believe. But when you voice discrimination, you’re going to hear about it. As you put it in another post, that’s my right, and you said you didn’t care about being disagreed with.

No. I don't. What I DO care about is when others try to force, or pass laws, or demand, that I change my religion...or worse, that my religion change to accomodate the actions of those who don't agree with us in the first place.

Oh, and I don't like being insulted, but that's not quite on the same level.

I notice the church changed it’s stance on that. Public pressure works, just as it has for the LGBTQ community in securing some equal rights.

Do you know the difference between 'public pressure,' and the sort of bullying that the Ravelry people are using (those who are posting lists of people they want boycotted unless they agree with the bully, etc.? ) Do you understand the difference between disagreement, debate...and threats?

No I don’t — not about this particular issue.[/qyite]

You have made that abundantly clear, and it is certainly your right to think so.

I do have the right and the authority as a Christian leader to call out the LDS for its inequitable attitudes and policies. And I have the right to call out discriminatory speech.

You have the RIGHT to say whatever you want. However, would you tell me what is 'discriminatory' about my saying that I recognize gay marriages as legal, that I would 'do' their weddings, that I would treat them with respect and acceptance for what they believe they are?

What ELSE do you want from me, sojourner?

No, you’re just throwing a fit because you think you’re entitled to discriminate.

And I am discriminating, how, exactly?

You’d be wholeheartedly invited.

You would be almost unique.

No, I’ve not called you one single name. I’ve called out your posts for displaying certain things.

No, you have personally called me discriminatory (in this post) and you have called ME those names.

 

[sojourner]

Your semantics dodge doesn't make your false claim true.

Right back at ya.

 

[sojourner]

(grin) that's what I said. If you didn't think we were wrong, you'd be one of us.

I didn’t say I thought you all were wrong. I said your polity doesn’t work for me. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, or shouldn’t work.

No. I don't. What I DO care about is when others try to force, or pass laws, or demand, that I change my religion...or worse, that my religion change to accomodate the actions of those who don't agree with us in the first place

I’m not asking the religion to change to accommodate anyone’s actions. I’m asking the religion to do the right, compassionate, honorable and just thing.

Do you know the difference between 'public pressure,' and the sort of bullying that the Ravelry people are using (those who are posting lists of people they want boycotted unless they agree with the bully, etc.? ) Do you understand the difference between disagreement, debate...and threats?

Of course.

 

[Road Warrior]

You eat Christians ?

Nope, just Christian hot dogs.


....but I confess I’ve eaten several Christian women. Is that what you were hinting around?

 

[dianaiad]

I didn’t say I thought you all were wrong. I said your polity doesn’t work for me. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t work, or shouldn’t work.

I’m not asking the religion to change to accommodate anyone’s actions. I’m asking the religion to do the right, compassionate, honorable and just thing.

Uh huh...

I wonder.

did you read what you typed before you posted it? Do you see the irony in what you just wrote? That you are asking the religion to change because YOU think the change would be the right, compassionate, honorable and just thing....but heaven forefend that you are asking it to change to accommodate anybody's actions, or opinions,...except of course, yours.