Enough!

[savagewind]

"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Matthew 11:27

The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses reveal the Father to everyone assuming everyone is chosen by Jesus to know God. Even the abusers in thier midst were chosen to be there by Jesus Christ. True? That is what it looks like.

 

[Shak34]

We hate what Jehovah hates. He doesn't hate anyone personally, but hates what they do if it goes contrary to his will.
He gives adequate time and warning to everyone to separate themselves from the wrongdoing, because he will eventually have to wipe out all wickedness and those who cling to it. No one ever hates their own children, but they can love Jehovah more and pray that an erring family member comes to realize their mistake.

Think back to the parable of the Prodigal son. (Luke 15:11-24) This is the kind of Father Jehovah is. He did not force the son to stay but gave him his share of the inheritance and let him go. He did not try to stop him or chase after him. The son went and lived a debauched life and as soon as his inheritance ran out, so did his friends. Hard times hit the land.
He was homeless and broke and alone, envying the pigs their carob pods. He realized what he'd thrown away and well off his father's laborers were. Humbly he decided to return home to his father...not as a son but as merely a hired worker.
The father saw him "afar off" and ran to meet him. The son had to take the first steps to return home to his father....so do those who err and are disfellowshipped from the congregation. We always hope for the best, that they too will 'come to their senses' and come back to us with lessons learned and a new resolve to live life as God has instructed. The Prodigal son didn't like his life when things were good, but not until he left that life and experienced great difficulty, did he appreciate what he had lost.

I have been thinking about this parable. The story of the lost prodigal son shows us that when the son returned, his father did not hold him at arms length and shun him. He did not hand him over to the elders to be taken into the back room to be judicially reproved, possibly DF'd, or to see if he has done enough to be reinstated. He simply welcomed back him with open arms. This show us the difference between the love of Christ and man made creeds.

 

[JayJayDee]

I have been thinking about this parable. The story of the lost prodigal son shows us that when the son returned, his father did not hold him at arms length and shun him. He did not hand him over to the elders to be taken into the back room to be judicially reproved, possibly DF'd, or to see if he has done enough to be reinstated.

This is not a Christian setting but a Jewish one, given to a Jewish audience. The father pictures Jehovah and the erring son pictures those who leave the Father's household. The 'older son' pictures those who remain in loyal service in the father's household, never giving reasons for grief.

The attitude of the father does indeed picture Jehovah's response to the return of a repentant wrongdoer.....but when the Christian arrangement came into effect, there was a due process for removing someone who was rebellious or who adopted apostate thinking. It wasn't just a matter of someone leaving for whatever reason. People are free to leave. We are sad to lose them. But disfellowshipping is for those who don't want to leave but who want to stay in the household, dictating their own terms of worship and conduct. This is what would cause problems for the whole congregation. We must of necessity "all speak in agreement", united in the same beliefs. (1 Cor 1:10)

Paul also said....
"6 Do you not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump? 7 Clear away the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, according as you are free from ferment.......

9 In my letter I wrote you to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not meaning entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.” (2 Cor 5:6-13)

If there was a process for removal of such ones, (after those who are authorized to judge in the congregation had carefully and prayerfully made a decision about their conduct,) then a process must also be implemented for reinstatement. Those seeking to return were to "produce fruits that befit repentance". It is not unreasonable to test out an individual as to the genuineness of their repentance. To observe those "fruits" includes seeing a humble and contrite spirit and an acceptance of the discipline as justified in their case. Those who are reinstated have met this criteria, and rightly so.

If someone comes back into the congregation for the wrong reasons, then another departure would surely follow when some other issue arose that caused them to disagree. There is not a revolving door in the congregation. Being a Christian is either a heartfelt commitment or it isn't. Only the genuinely repentant will endure the "grievous" aspects of Jehovah's discipline and learn from them. (Heb 12:7, 11)

There is one truth accepted by all of Jehovah's Witnesses, internationally. If individuals cannot accept those teachings, then they have no place among us. It's really that simple. God will not make adjustments to accommodate the erroneous views of people who want to dictate our beliefs.

As John said....
"Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 9-11)

We make no apology for carrying out scriptural recommendations for dealing with dissenters and apostates. This is what keeps us from becoming like Christendom.

He simply welcomed back him with open arms. This show us the difference between the love of Christ and man made creeds.

No, it shows the difference between understanding the reasons for the discipline and the attitude of those who basically want their cake and eat it too.
This is not a "man made creed" but a Biblically established Christian principle. If you wish to dispute it, that is your choice. But just remember that all of our choices have consequences. Like the father in the parable, God will not chase after us....it is we who must take the first steps to return to him.

 

[savagewind]

...We must of necessity "all speak in agreement", united in the same beliefs. (1 Cor 1:10)...Being a Christian is either a heartfelt commitment or it isn't. .....There is one truth accepted by all of Jehovah's Witnesses, internationally. If individuals cannot accept those teachings, then they have no place among us. It's really that simple. God will not make adjustments to accommodate the erroneous views of people who want to dictate our belief....There is one truth accepted by all of Jehovah's Witnesses, internationally. If individuals cannot accept those teachings, then they have no place among us

This is all very amazing because the Jehovah Witness religion in only about 100 years old. According to them a person must " speak in agreement" with them or they are not Christian so everyone before the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses who believed they were "Christian" were not, according to them. A Christian is someone who agrees with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. And since there was no new light until recently, there have been no Christians since the early Christian congegation (which had not defected yet) until now.

 

[JayJayDee]

One of those articles is on the website that can be verified that it does in fact call apostates mentally diseased and also compares them to criminals saying that they make false words, like criminals who make false documents look real.

Have you ever gone to one of these websites to truly know what they say? (This is just a question, please don't bite my head off)

It is not our intention to bite anyone's head off. But defending ourselves when falsehood is presented as fact can seem to be that way apparently.

If you had read the whole article, and the words that were highlighted in your quote, you would see that it was scripture that was being quoted. Paul likened apostates to those who are "mentally diseased."
Or as the J.B.Phillips translation renders it....

"This is the sort of thing you should teach, and if anyone tries to teach some doctrinal novelty which is not compatible with sound teaching (which we base on Christ’s own words and which leads to Christ-like living), then he is a conceited idiot! His mind is a morbid jumble of disputation and argument, things which lead to nothing but jealousy, quarrelling, insults and malicious innuendoes—continual wrangling, in fact, among men of warped minds who have lost their real hold on the truth but hope to make some profit out of the Christian religion."

These are strong words. "A conceited idiot" "warped minds"...these are the apostles words, not ours.

Can you not see the activity of apostates fitting this criteria to a tee? The internet is full of such activity by these ones. It is just as Paul said.

Here is my story:I was raised a Jehovah Witness but sort of fell away when I was told that I didn't have enough hours in service to get baptized (about 13 years old). Now did I actually jump ship first?

This is what I meant by allowing the actions of men to lead you to commit spiritual suicide. At such a young age, I am surprised that you would have been contemplating baptism anyway. I personally don't believe that a child can fully comprehend the seriousness of baptism as a complete dedication to God's service for the rest of their lives. If they have no life experience, I don't believe that a true commitment can be made. I am assuming that this was a long time ago?

As life in this system has become more difficult, the requirements for baptism (which have always been completely Biblical,) must still be met, but the time spent in preaching for individuals reflects the difficulty of life they may be personally experiencing.

I even here recently had some witnesses come over and started a sort of study. I ask how many hours do I need to get baptized and they said they couldn't tell me. How can I get baptized if I don't know what is required? Who did I bad mouth? What former associates and elders? I don't remember saying anyone in particular.

If the present requirements for field activity reflects the difficulty of the times, it is no longer a matter of "hours"...it is down to preaching the good news whenever opportunity presents itself...even if this is 15 minutes spent talking to a neighbor over the back fence or speaking to someone at a bus stop.

It is very satisfying to see in black and white the number of hours spent in field service by our international brotherhood recorded in our yearbook. To know that our own contribution is included, no matter how small is encouraging in this time of the end. It keeps us focused on the job we have been assigned.

This makes me think of the parable of the lost sheep. (Luke 15: 1-7) Did you even try to find my story before you assumed that I jumped ship? This is only, I think, my 41st post it wouldn't have been that hard to find.

I'm sorry, but my life and my time is not always mine. If you had provided a link, perhaps I would have. I am a full time carer, so I can be called away at any time. None of us really knows the circumstances of fellow posters.

Did you even try to find out how deep the hole is so you could try and help a lost sheep get to safety.

By providing the information I did, I was hoping that your ill feeling towards us might be corrected. Did I say anything that was untruthful?

I do not personally approach the truth emotionally....I never have. It is not in my nature to be too swayed by my feelings. Emotions can be wonderful friend, but terrible masters. I have always believed that when things are examined emotionally, truth and sound logic can go out the window. I never respond to anything hastily by allowing feelings to dictate my actions.

Jehovah said that he "remembers that we are dust", so are we expecting more of our brothers than what can reasonably be delivered?

We need a reasonable approach when dealing with the imperfections of our brothers. Israel's leaders at times made grave mistakes, but it didn't mean that they ceased being Jehovah's representatives. Those who were charged with taking care of the Christian congregation were at times seen to do the wrong thing. Again their words still encourage us. Jehovah did not cast them off but corrected them.

There will never be perfect humans, perfectly doing God's will in this system. But as long as we follow the teachings of Jesus in our own lives, instead of using the imperfections of other as an excuse not to do so ourselves, then we will be in the right position to inherit the promises.

 

[JayJayDee]

You know that every congregation differs. Some have amazing people and others not so much. Unfortunately, I moved from an amazing one to a pretty nasty one. No one went out of their way to encourage anyone who was falling way. Maybe it is just different in the States than in your neck of the woods.

Yes, you are right. How sad that you forgot the first congregation and tarred the rest by the conduct of some in the second. Disappointing conduct in one congregation is not indicative of the whole brotherhood. Are you tarring us all with the one brush? Any congregation is only as strong as its leadership. Who those leaders are is largely a matter of geography.

I am sorry you have had family that you are unable to socialize with anymore.

Since they have returned to the fold, I am able to freely associate with them now. The two that have come back appreciate that the discipline was administered as a loving correction. The one who is now making moves to return views it the same way now.
Had we associated with them freely after they were disfellowshipped, there would have been no pain attached to the discipline, therefore no incentive to come back to the family. Think back to the prodigal son. Had the father supported his lifestyle and visited and given him financial assistance, would he have been moved to return?

We send our own children to "time out" to allow them to reflect on what they have done. Jehovah does too. But he is not dealing with small children...he is dealing with adults who have the ability to evaluate their conduct and react by what is in their heart.

I guess I should have been more clear. The ripple effect I was referring to was when a parent gets disfellowshiped and their children get punished for it. (I know sins of the father passed down on generations and all that)

When a parent gets disfellowshipped, every effort should be made to support the children, especially if one parent is still remaining faithful to Jehovah. They all need extra care. But if both parents abandon Jehovah or disobey his arrangements for discipline, then there will be casualties. We cannot rightly interfere with their own parental responsibilities. Jehovah holds parents responsible for the welfare of their children.

I'm just happy that my parents never let the children of disfellowshiped parents go through what their children went through.

I am too. That is as it should be. Were one or both of your parents disfellowshipped?

I never told you what you did or didn't know. I said if you didn't know, because I don't know you. I have no idea why you have to be so snarky.

Again, being defensive is not being snarky. Read back over your posts and perhaps you will not see what I saw....and vice versa. Communication over the net is not notoriously good at facilitating absolutes by way of being able to read tone of voice or facial expression. I believe this is what is happening here.

The first time I ever posted a comment on this forum you and another witness came out with you teeth and claws at the ready.

Perhaps it was because you came to this thread with accusations against us from the beginning?
We are human too you know. If someone is reasonable, we too are reasonable, but if there are assertions made and anti-JW quotes from apostate websites posted, we feel the need to defend our brothers. I hope I have done so in a restrained manner.

You called me a slanderer then too.

I don't believe that I called you a slanderer. I believe that I said if you uphold the words of slanderers, that makes one as guilty. Am I wrong?

All I was doing was asking the opinion of a witness because I felt that it might be concerning and could add fuel to the fire for people against witnesses. Maybe I came across wrong but you could have asked for clarification before you jumped down my throat.

Perhaps if I had discerned a reasonable attitude, I may have taken a different approach. You must realize that first impressions are the lasting ones. It appears as if we both made bad first impressions with each other.

When witnesses won't answer your questions there is always someone that will.

I will answer any reasonable question, as I have already demonstrated.
I have read many accusations posted by apostates over the years, none of them were substantiated but were simply one sided stories designed to paint all of Jehovah's Witnesses in the worst possible light.

I do not believe that ex-JW's many hate sites on the net tell the whole truth. We are not perfect by any means, but our brotherhood is not corrupt and our members are just ordinary people who are doing their best to fulfill the requirements that Christ gave to all his disciples.

Some will choose not to believe that and that is their choice. All we can do is tell the truth.

 

[savagewind]

the requirements for baptism (which have always been completely Biblical,)

Unbelievable! Some where in the Bible it says a person must preach for a certain amount of time, and this time might differ from congregation to congegation, she must report her time spend each month, if she doesn't for several months she might not be considered a true Jehovah's Witness. There is a good reason to report time! It's not Biblical though. Their reason is to know where more preaching is needed so more magazines can be printed. The Bible is all about publishing more words, like The Word isn't good enough. The Bible says The Spirit is able to tell where help is needed.

During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." Acts 16:9

 

[savagewind]

I do not believe that ex-JW's many hate sites on the net tell the whole truth. We are not perfect by any means, but our brotherhood is not corrupt and our members are just ordinary people who are doing their best to fulfill the requirements that Christ gave to all his disciples.

And one is to make disciples.

You did not answer my question. First, I know you are aware that the gb members have made mistakes before but they are good to fix them as they become known.

You have not answered any of my questions.

How do they know Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples" AND DID NOT SAY [my] having gone therefore disciple the nations?

 

[savagewind]

How do they know Jesus said "take care you are not misled" not "take care you do not mislead"?

He said what would lead to a snare is over eating, over drinking and anxieties of life. That is what a person does, not about who a person follows. To be mis "led" requires a false "leader". Jesus is leader. Why did he tell the people wanting to follow him to be careful they are not misled?

 

[savagewind]

Are these two previous posts examples of "slander" and "twisting scripture" and "attacking"? I am not TEACHING these. I am ASKING! ASKING!!!!

 

[savagewind]

There is nobody there....... Is that slander?

 

[savagewind]

I have not spoken against the men of the governing body. I have spoken against what I believe are some false tenets of theirs. It was false tenets of Christ's churches that caused the first body of Bible Students to gather to fight them.

They made mistakes. Sometimes they have fixed them. I see some they are not fixing. So my saying they are wrong about some things is slander according to them. Then they are slandering every other church and reliigous group. Is Jehovah pardoning their slander and not mine?

 

[JayJayDee]

And one is to make disciples.

You did not answer my question. First, I know you are aware that the gb members have made mistakes before but they are good to fix them as they become known.

You have not answered any of my questions.

How do they know Jesus said "Go therefore and make disciples" AND DID NOT SAY [my] having gone therefore disciple the nations?

This is your fixation, not ours. How does one "disciple the nations"?

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (HCSB)

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

Matthew 28:19-20 "You, then, are to go and make disciples of all the nations and baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you and, remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.” (Phillips)

Matthew 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NET)

Matthew 28:19-20 "Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.” (LEB)

Now if this isn't enough scripture from enough different translations to demonstrate that your fixation with these words makes no sense, then I cannot help you.

Since teaching these ones makes them into Christ's disciples and then baptizing them means that they are human beings and hence "people" I have no idea what on earth you think this verse means?

You didn't get an answer because there isn't one, except in your own strange interpretation of Jesus' command. Give it a rest now. :areyoucra

 

[Pegg]

You didn't get an answer because there isn't one, except in your own strange interpretation of Jesus' command. Give it a rest now. :areyoucra

i think 'twisted' is the right word

 

[savagewind]

This is your fixation, not ours. How does one "disciple the nations"?

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (HCSB)

Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (ESV)

Matthew 28:19-20 "You, then, are to go and make disciples of all the nations and baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you and, remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.” (Phillips)

Matthew 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” (NET)

Matthew 28:19-20 "Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.” (LEB)

Now if this isn't enough scripture from enough different translations to demonstrate that your fixation with these words makes no sense, then I cannot help you.

Since teaching these ones makes them into Christ's disciples and then baptizing them means that they are human beings and hence "people" I have no idea what on earth you think this verse means?

You didn't get an answer because there isn't one, except in your own strange interpretation of Jesus' command. Give it a rest now. :areyoucra

On the one hand Jehovah's Witnesses say every other religion constitutes Babylon the Great and will be destroyed because of stubborn disobediance to God's righteousness. On the other hand you use her BOOK to prove your righteousness.

The command "Go make disciples" is ambigouos. Who should go? Where should we go? Who will be made into a disciple?

But if he said "I am going" therefore YOU disciple nations it is as clear as a bell.

I am not present here (because I died) to lead you (as I am no part of the world); if you will see me again, be my disciple. Whenever someone adds him or her self to you (one body in Christ) do a baptism and teach them ALL I have commanded and I will be with you.

He starts by saying he is going but ends by saying he won't be gone.

Do you remember that right after he died the disciples were scattered? These words of his at his [apparent] parting were for bringing them back together.

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." 2 Timothy 2:19

To disciple nations means to mind your own business in the form of a new person who is reflecting the love and the power of God. There is not need to MAKE disciples. They are ALL waiting on Jehovah to be found. And it is dangerous to make disciples because some people that you will find are able to put on a false personality and they do.

Since teaching these ones makes them into Christ's disciples and then baptizing them means that they are human beings and hence "people" I have no idea what on earth you think this verse means?

No. Teaching people who Jesus does not know does not make them into disciples. Teaching found ones makes them into proper disciples like Jesus, not of Jesus. Jesus came to make us like him, not of him. We are to be "of" Jehovah "like" Jesus.

Nancy

 

[savagewind]

All your children will be taught by יְהוָ֑ה and great will be their peace. Isaiah 54:13

Jehovah's Witnesses say you must be a baptized member of their organization to be taught by יְהוָ֑ה

They say their governing body are being taught by Jesus Christ.

Who in turn teach all God's faithful ones.

Do I have to say more?

 

[savagewind]

It is not logical to trust the person who wrote "go make disciples" and the people who teach "go make disciples" but not the person who says he said "I am going where you can't come, disciple the nations".

Then she says "to disciple the nations doesn't MEAN anything". But it is WHAT THE LORD DID!!!!!!!!!

 

[savagewind]

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. Luke 10:19

As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness Ezekiel 34:12

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:16

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.1 Timothy 1:15

30 The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?" 31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick. 32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:31 - 32



Romans 10:1-15

10 Brothers, the goodwill of my heart and my supplication to God for them are indeed for their salvation. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. 3 For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the Law: “The man who does these things will live by means of them.” 6 But the righteousness resulting from faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ that is, to bring Christ down, 7 or, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your own mouth and in your own heart”; that is, “the word” of faith, which we are preaching. 9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.
11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”

Show me it says "make" them. Please.

Jehovah's Witnesses are all about teaching people to have a zeal for God. Show me from the scriptures where it says that. All scripture inspired of God is ABOUT people who have a zeal for God. Then the Jehovah's Witnesses come and say "You must have a zeal for God. We know the way to a zeal for God" .

Show me. Where is it written that a zeal for God can be taught?

 

[savagewind]

"I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32 Did he come to call people to discipleship? Show me!

 

[savagewind]

Where is it written that Jesus came to make disciples?