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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
savagewind, could you tell me, please, have you officially left the Jehovah's Witnesses or is there even a way to do that? If you haven't left, why haven't you? If you have, it seems to me as if you are no longer bound by their rules. Either way, I'm sorry for what you're being accused of.
 

Shak34

Active Member
It is not our intention to bite anyone's head off. But defending ourselves when falsehood is presented as fact can seem to be that way apparently.

The biting my head off in regards to the question I ask. Have you ever been to an anti-JW website?



This is what I meant by allowing the actions of men to lead you to commit spiritual suicide. At such a young age, I am surprised that you would have been contemplating baptism anyway. I personally don't believe that a child can fully comprehend the seriousness of baptism as a complete dedication to God's service for the rest of their lives. If they have no life experience, I don't believe that a true commitment can be made. I am assuming that this was a long time ago?

Men leading me to commit spiritual suicide, come on I was only thirteen. Of course it is going to cause pain and confusion. When I was a child, we were taught that the elders are chosen to have that position through the channels of God. So for some children when the elders say you didn't do good enough some might think that it was in fact God that felt that way. Child baptism is huge through out the witness community. You can find many examples of it on youtube from people posting videos of there children getting baptized. The org even has a cartoon video called Jehovah's Warm Appeal:"Be Wise, My Son" (Song 89) depicting very young children getting baptized.

Even Governing Body member Anthony Morris III says in a talk: "If they're old enough to understand the need for dedication and baptism and like some used to say 'Well, I don't think I'm old enough.' I tell parents, cause we raised sons, we know how it works. I say 'Well, Okay" and one of was a little upset and he was determined. I'll tell you what you tell him, 'Okay when you turn 16,' I don't know about your state but, 'No, driver's license.' (Morris now talking as the kid) 'Oh, no I'm ready! I know I can handle a car when I'm 16.' (Morris back to being the parent) But you can't dedicate your life and get baptized, huh?" Not a lot of life experiences happen between the ages of 13 to 16, if any for a child. Baptism of young children in the organization has not change from a long time ago to now.

As life in this system has become more difficult, the requirements for baptism (which have always been completely Biblical,) must still be met, but the time spent in preaching for individuals reflects the difficulty of life they may be personally experiencing.

I have found only three requirements for baptism in the bible. Confession of sins (Matthew 3: 5,6). Repent your sins (Acts 2: 38). Believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as your Savior from sin (Acts 8: 37,38 and Mark 16:16). But the third one can be argued because some do not believe these scriptures should be in the bible and are not part of the original text. I have not found the requirement for preaching/ service time. If you can find it, I would gladly examine what the scriptures have to say.
 
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Shak34

Active Member
savagewind, could you tell me, please, have you officially left the Jehovah's Witnesses or is there even a way to do that? If you haven't left, why haven't you? If you have, it seems to me as if you are no longer bound by their rules. Either way, I'm sorry for what you're being accused of.

There is a way for a baptized witnesses to officially leave the organization. It is call disassociation. The down fall of being disassociated with the organization is that they are treated the same way as a disfellowshipped person and are shunned by their family. You never know if someone just wanted to walk away or is being punished for their sin because the only announcement made is: "[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses."
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
savagewind, could you tell me, please, have you officially left the Jehovah's Witnesses or is there even a way to do that? If you haven't left, why haven't you? If you have, it seems to me as if you are no longer bound by their rules. Either way, I'm sorry for what you're being accused of.

I began my adventure with them by sending a letter to my former church (Congegationalist). It was suggested by them that I do that. So I did! :p

I was baptized believing my baptism is a step in drawing close to God. I still believe it. But they teach something strange. They say that if a person is already baptized for The Lord they must do it again with them. I have many points of contention with them and that is just one. :beach:

So when I heard it (finally) from the "horses mouth" (a presiding elder in the congregation) that it was not my imagination they are being led by those men but it is the rule. One of my proudest moments was when, after hearing that, straight away I walked out of that shepherding meeting (it was not a judicial committee that time) and never looked back, I am not sorry.

Anyhoo I did not send a letter because I believe sending a letter is their rule. I do not obey their rules any longer.

I am not disfellowshipped but I think the lady thinks I should be and maybe she is right. I think I would rather be a coward than be stupid.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I really have not accused the men of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses or any of their people or any JW sympathisers of anything. They have as much right to exist as the klu klux klan (their spelling is atrocious though...mine is pretty good) does.

Why then all the animosity? I think I know. I am posting alternative ways of looking at some scriptures and sometimes what I say sounds better than what they say. They are present with their bait for catching souls who are like minded with them (which is called proselytizing fyi) and they do not like the competition.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think I would rather be a coward than be stupid.
well...neither would be better. I have heard that people who disagree with governing body doctrine but do not confess it are considered cowardly by some. I don't think I believe it. But I am sure as shooting that calling myself out for their satisfaction is nothing but stupid.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
There is a way for a baptized witnesses to leave the organization. It is call disassociation. The down fall of being disassociated with the organization is that they are treated the same way as a disfellowshipped person and are shunned by there family. You never know if someone just wanted to walk away or is being punished for there sin because the only announcement made is: "[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses."
The part I put in blue bold face is what's hard for me to accept. In my opinion, religion should never be the cause of estrangement within the family unit. I can't imagine the pain involved with having your own family members shun you.
 

Shak34

Active Member
Yes, you are right. How sad that you forgot the first congregation and tarred the rest by the conduct of some in the second. Disappointing conduct in one congregation is not indicative of the whole brotherhood. Are you tarring us all with the one brush? Any congregation is only as strong as its leadership. Who those leaders are is largely a matter of geography.

I was responding the you saying:
It is not former Witnesses that are looked down upon...they are encouraged as much as we can do so.

I was trying to make a point that there are congregations that don't encourage as much as they can or even at all. So where I lingered on the bad you lingered on the good. We can come to an agreement that some encourage and others don't. But coming across as if all congregations encourage their lost sheep is a misrepresentation.


When a parent gets disfellowshipped, every effort should be made to support the children, especially if one parent is still remaining faithful to Jehovah. They all need extra care. But if both parents abandon Jehovah or disobey his arrangements for discipline, then there will be casualties. We cannot rightly interfere with their own parental responsibilities. Jehovah holds parents responsible for the welfare of their children.

I am too. That is as it should be. Were one or both of your parents disfellowshipped?

One, and my sibling and I were treated as if we were disfellowshipped. My siblings and I were not the only ones I have seen treated that way when only one parent was DF'd. Every effort should be made but that is sadly not the case most of the time. Children becoming casualties is not okay.

Again, being defensive is not being snarky. Read back over your posts and perhaps you will not see what I saw....and vice versa. Communication over the net is not notoriously good at facilitating absolutes by way of being able to read tone of voice or facial expression. I believe this is what is happening here.

Perhaps it was because you came to this thread with accusations against us from the beginning?
We are human too you know. If someone is reasonable, we too are reasonable, but if there are assertions made and anti-JW quotes from apostate websites posted, we feel the need to defend our brothers. I hope I have done so in a restrained manner.

It was not this thread that I first posted in, so no I did not come in with accusations from the beginning. I asked if any witnesses were concerned about some of the things that Anthony Morris III was saying in his talks. I had been listening to them at the time and was shocked at some of the things he said. To me it was very concerning because they seem to be more way out there personal thoughts then keeping completely with the Watchtower. I even quoted him so you would know where I was coming from.


I don't believe that I called you a slanderer. I believe that I said if you uphold the words of slanderers, that makes one as guilty. Am I wrong?

And I replied back: "You just called me a slander because I support that those quotes are in my opinion horribly judgmental and make witnesses hate even their own family (ones that are considered apostates)." Which is what they are saying.

I understand that yes apostates are bad for the christian religion in a whole, since they are telling people to leave the teaching of the bible. But if a person is disfellowshipped they are treated as an apostate, thought they might not be. They are not treated any differently until it is decided that they have repented long enough. Posting those quotes about how apostates are viewed is how people that have went away (disassociated and DF'd) are viewed.


I do not believe that ex-JW's many hate sites on the net tell the whole truth.

You say, "I do not believe", but believing and knowing are two different things. Until you know what is on a ex-JW's site you can not confirm that is not telling the whole truth.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Any congregation is only as strong as its leadership. Who those leaders are is largely a matter of geography.
Matthew 23:10

I have reminded you that there is only one leader who is Jesus Christ and You have said the governing body does not lead us. They are for organizing the preaching work.

We are human too you know. If someone is reasonable, we too are reasonable, but if there are assertions made and anti-JW quotes from apostate websites posted, we feel the need to defend

Matthew 5:38-42

Thank you for listening.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not expect my accusers to search through my posts to find where I slandered them. Please do this for me. From now on if you see some slander coming from me show it to me and explain to me why it is bad. What you have been doing is explaining to readers that I am bad. I think I deserve an explanation and they deserve proof. Please.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The last time I knew the baptism vow included a part about "God's spirit" direction.

Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

How does the belief that the organization is directed by God's spirit conform to this;

Any congregation is only as strong as its leadership. Who those leaders are is largely a matter of geography.

First of all "leadership" is the wrong word to use. "Oversight" is more correct. If I was a Jehovah's Witness promoting the organization truthfully, like the governing body teach it, I'd have to say the congregations are only as strong as they will allow the Holy Spirit in and everywhere it is the same.

It is why I suspect fraud.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
The biting my head off in regards to the question I ask. Have you ever been to an anti-JW website?
I have no intention of ever visiting an anti-JW website, Shak 34. There is enough posted on sites like this to allow me to know of their content. Spewing hatred and twisted half truths, one sided stories and outright lies is not exactly what I enjoy reading. Most will accept such material without question if it feeds a need in them. It would feed no need in me. I have been a very happy and contented Witness for over 40 years....I love preaching and teaching..but I do not expect more of my brothers than what I reasonably expect of myself. We will all be judged as we judge.

Positions in the congregation as well as in the organization itself are not positions of power, but positions of service and oversight. People tend to forget that those who take the lead are 'worthy of double honor', but also are subject to accountability. (1 Tim 5:17-21, Heb 13:17) No one really gets away with anything at the end of the day.
If there has been a miscarriage of justice, Jehovah will see to it.

What is the general theme of such sites and what is the common emotion seen on them? Is it encouraging? Is it promoting peace and truth? Is it good news? Or are the people who frequent those sites filled with animosity, all bitter and twisted with a single agenda....to shoot JW's down and make them out to be the worst people in existence?

If the devil could get into people's thinking and make the son of God look like a fraud deserving of death, what do you imagine he can do to those who have their knickers in a twist because they can't have things their own way, or want to play the victim or go off in a huff because some human, who is as imperfect as they are, caused them some angst? Is it worth leaving Jehovah because of what a mere human has done? I could not see myself ever doing that...."let God be found true, though every man be found a liar" (Rom 3:4) I have a realistic view of my brothers' limitations, just as they have a reasonable view of mine. Their mistakes are not God's mistakes, so why would I leave the warmth of his family to go out into the cold? :shrug:

Men leading me to commit spiritual suicide, come on I was only thirteen. Of course it is going to cause pain and confusion. When I was a child, we were taught that the elders are chosen to have that position through the channels of God. So for some children when the elders say you didn't do good enough some might think that it was in fact God that felt that way. Child baptism is huge through out the witness community. You can find many examples of it on youtube from people posting videos of there children getting baptized. The org even has a cartoon video called Jehovah's Warm Appeal:"Be Wise, My Son" (Song 89) depicting very young children getting baptized.
Perhaps this is a thing pertaining to the prevailing attitude of people in the country in which they live. Child baptism is not common at all in Australia, nor is it really encouraged. I would also ask how far back we are going here? A lot has changed over the years. We have moved on in our understanding and the times, and attitudes of Jehovah's people have also moved with them....otherwise we could not preach to people with any understanding of their feelings or circumstances.

If an adult has difficulty, then I do not personally believe that a child who has not had their faith tested in this world can possibly make a commitment to Jehovah on the basis of knowledge and understanding. To then find out later that their faith was not strong enough, and then face disfellowshipping if they have been overreached, would be tragic. I would not advise any young child to be baptized before an age where they are mature enough to make that decision in full comprehension of what it means. My own children were 18 (legal adulthood in Australia) when they were baptized.
There are exceptions to this I might add, but generally speaking, I don't personally think the average 13 year old has the maturity to make such an important decision. That is just my opinion.

I have found only three requirements for baptism in the bible. Confession of sins (Matthew 3: 5,6). Repent your sins (Acts 2: 38). Believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as your Savior from sin (Acts 8: 37,38 and Mark 16:16). But the third one can be argued because some do not believe these scriptures should be in the bible and are not part of the original text.
Yes, but spurious verses aside, I do not believe that a young immature child is old enough to do that in full knowledge. Don't get me wrong, some children can be very spiritually mature and continue in God's service throughout life without any trouble, but it takes an exceptional child or family to produce such an individual, especially in this day and age. Most children today do not have those circumstances and the brothers are giving recommendations as something to aim for. I have no problem with that. It is good to set goals early.

I have not found the requirement for preaching/ service time. If you can find it, I would gladly examine what the scriptures have to say.
Reporting field service time is both a record and a spiritual barometer.

Each year the reports are tallied and we see how many hours our brothers in all the world have spent in the kingdom preaching work. It is very encouraging to read of the millions of hours that are dedicated to the work each year. Our contribution to that tally, no matter how small is valued. It is part of a great collective shout of praise to our God that we can still faithfully carry out our assignment despite our difficulties in these troubled times.

Our field service is also a spiritual barometer for the shepherds to keep a watch on our spiritual condition. (Heb 13:17) They must 'know the flock' and if they see our field activity dropping off, it is a signal to them that something is wrong. They will usually then call around and ask if there is anything they can do to help. It is like an early warning system.

Someone with the right attitude towards being a Christian will engage in the preaching work because they want to, not because they are forced to. Love for Jehovah must be the motivating force, coupled with love of neighbor. I believe that the churches have tried to engage in this work but can never keep it going.

If there was no requirement, then how would the brothers know when someone seeking baptism was genuine? I believe it is the gauge of a Christian's commitment. And how would the shepherds ascertain when someone was struggling spiritually? Many do not come and ask for help, and when things get too bad, it is often too late to offer assistance.

Jehovah is an organized God; his universe is organized, his people are organized too. Their service and their meetings are organized, just as it was in Israel.....I have appreciation for that. I do not find that to be any kind of burden to carry, nor is it an intrusion on my life or a rod for my back. It is nice to know that someone is actually watching my back, who cares enough to inquire about my spiritual welfare and offer assistance when needed. :yes:
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The part I put in blue bold face is what's hard for me to accept. In my opinion, religion should never be the cause of estrangement within the family unit. I can't imagine the pain involved with having your own family members shun you.

the principle at play is this:

Matt 10:37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

A christian should never put loyalty of rebellious family members ahead of their loyalty to God.

He is our life giver and we owe our life to him...he expects complete loyalty from us. God should be the most important person in all our lives...if he's not, then we are not worthy of him.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
the principle at play is this:

Matt 10:37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me.

A christian should never put loyalty of rebellious family members ahead of their loyalty to God.

He is our life giver and we owe our life to him...he expects complete loyalty from us. God should be the most important person in all our lives...if he's not, then we are not worthy of him.


WOW and I'm the one twisting scriptures.

Matthew 26: 31 Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'"

And they won't be DISFELLOWSHIPPED?????:eek:

Mark 9:42If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Believes in WHO?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since when has faith in Jesus changed to faith in Christ's appointments?

JayJay said
Any congregation is only as strong as its leadership. Who those leaders are is largely a matter of geography.

Are men no longer appointed along with prayer and Holy Spirit? Can you not dispute this sentiment? Have bad association got her?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, holy spirit appoints the governing body members and elders in congregations but WHO expects perfection from it? It just isn't right. Have you not heard "nobody's perfect"?. No, no that wouldn't work. The Holy Spirit isn't a body.


Can you please explain this?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What I am learning from having observed the International Bible Students; The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society; The Jehovah's Witnesses; et al is 'Jehovah' is perfect but what Jehovah does isn't. And Jehovah can only perform pefection when every enemy has been extinguished.

It is obviously not a good lesson. I hope I don't end up believing it.

So you say The Father will put all the son's ememies under his feet. It doesn't actually say dead. But me saying they might not be dead is ME twisting scripture. Right?

Is that slander?
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A christian should never put loyalty of rebellious family members ahead of their loyalty to God.

He is our life giver and we owe our life to him...he expects complete loyalty from us. God should be the most important person in all our lives...if he's not, then we are not worthy of him.


I want to talk about the word you used for the loyalty to God. Please

If all my loyalty should be to God what have I left for him who said "follow me" and who said  Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me? Matt 10:37 

You have just made a perfect argument for trinity. Do you think the governing body will ever relent respecting the trinity doctrine? You'll still have the reporting of preaching time to make you stand out different and all your many other rules and regulation.

Is that slander?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have to go so before I leave I will answer the question which answer I have heard. I am not personally slandering anyone but by my posts I am putting doubt is some people's minds and convincing others that The Jehovah's Witnesses don't have any more Holy Spirit than the pope does. So anyone reading me who is disposed to slander will do it all the more with gusto.

Is that it?
 
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