English Nationalism and Independence

[Rival]

Why are you so desperate to cover it up?

You are now moving goalposts to "non crime incident's"

Lol, quoting the place that trains police in how to do their job is covering up? These are their words, not mine!

 

[Rival]

Correct, someone beening assaulted is a crime

But these incidents are not assaults. They're someone's perception.

 

[ChristineM]

But these incidents are not assaults. They're someone's perception.

So me being beaten to the ground and my lids pushchair being launched into traffic is not an assault???

Methinks we are talk on completely different planes here

 

[Rival]

So me being beaten to the ground and my lids pushchair being launched into traffic is not an assault???

Methinks we are talk on completely different planes here

That would be classed as assault. These crimes are defined by the fact that they're wholly based on what the victim judges it to be. Beating someone up is a fairly obvious crime that doesn't depend on the victim's perception.

 

[ChristineM]

That would be classed as assault. These crimes are defined by the fact that they're wholly based on what the victim judges it to be. Beating someone up is a fairly obvious crime that doesn't depend on the victim's perception.

Correct.

Judges use evidence, not perception

 

[Rival]

Correct.

Judges use evidence, not perception

Yes, as I've already quoted to you, these 'crimes' don't rely on evidence:

"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."

That's from here btw Hate Crime Operational Guidance (college.police.uk)

And,

Not every reported incident is a crime. If officers are unsure whether a reported incident amounts to a crime, an initial investigation should be undertaken to establish the facts to determine whether it is a hate crime or a non-crime hate incident.

Where it is established that a criminal offence has not taken place, but the victim or any other person perceives that the incident was motivated wholly or partially by hostility, it should be recorded and flagged as a non-crime hate incident.

Perception =/= evidence.

Non-crime =/= crime.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, as I've already quoted to you, these 'crimes' don't rely on evidence:

"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."

And,

Not every reported incident is a crime. If officers are unsure whether a reported incident amounts to a crime, an initial investigation should be undertaken to establish the facts to determine whether it is a hate crime or a non-crime hate incident.

Where it is established that a criminal offence has not taken place, but the victim or any other person perceives that the incident was motivated wholly or partially by hostility, it should be recorded and flagged as a non-crime hate incident.

Perception =/= evidence.

Non-crime =/= crime.

Then as you quoted, they are not crimes but non crimes, not a factor in the statistics

 

[Rival]

Then as you quoted, they are not crimes but non crimes, not a factor in the statistics

They are counted though, that's the issue.

 

[ChristineM]

But these incidents are not assaults. They're someone's perception.

So i just perceived i was beaten to the ground and my kids thrown into moving traffic. Oh that makes it all ok then

 

[ChristineM]

They are counted though, that's the issue.

The crimes that are counted are crimes,not non crimes otherwise it would be known as hate non crime

 

[Rival]

So i just perceived i was beaten to the ground and my kids thrown into moving traffic. Oh that makes it all ok then

You're reading this wrong.

That's not what it means at all.

It means the person perceives something as being motivated by hate, or that something, however slight, that happened, was a hate crime. They report this and the police have to essentially take their word for it, without evidence.

 

[Rival]

The crimes that are counted are crimes,not non crimes

No, these non-crimes are counted in the 'hate incident' stats. That's my problem. They go on your DBS (CRB) checks.

 

[Laika]

This isn't the '70s anymore. Even the groups whose logos you posted - the BNP and NF - are basically dead. Those types of groups, however, are mostly made up of angry working class and poor white youth who feel left behind, disenfranchised and that no one in the mainstream is representing them, and guess what? The numbers of those people are growing and growing in the US and the UK, and probably elsewhere in the West. Most of them won't be joining extremist groups these days, though. So maybe we should try actually listening to their grievances as people instead of shaming them. Because they're not going away and the problem is only festering and growing worse.

I would give this several winner ratings if I could...

 

[ChristineM]

You're reading this wrong.

That's not what it means at all.

It means the person perceives something as being motivated by hate, or that something, however slight, that happened, was a hate crime. They report this and the police have to essentially take their word for it, without evidence.

And then decide if it is a crime or non crime.

 

[Rival]

And then decide if it is a crime or non crime.

Yes, and even if they say it's a non-crime it will be flagged on your DBS and can bar you from work even though it's not actually a crime.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, and even if they say it's a non-crime it will be flagged on your DBS and can bar you from work even though it's not actually a crime.

I don't know of that is so but non crime does not go in with crime statistics

 

[Rival]

I don't know of that is so but non crime does not go in with crime statistics

It's called a 'crime non-crime' and it does go in the stats, which is the cause of the 'rising'.

 

[ChristineM]

It's called a 'crime non-crime' and it does go in the stats, which is the cause of the 'rising'.

Not in the government document i provided from what i can see

Anyway the point is, you now admit it is rising (which the spectator seemed to deny).

 

[Rival]

Not in the government document i provided from what i can see

Anyway the point is, you now admit it is rising (which the spectator seemed to deny).

Yes, the incidents of reported crime are rising. Not actual crime.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I would give this several winner ratings if I could...

I would also like to add that most of those white supremacist groups like the National Alliance and Aryan Nations, which were a big deal for decades in the US and inspired much terrorism and murders, function on a model that allows a charismatic leader to draw in young people from broken, dysfunctional backgrounds and offers them a sense of identity and a make-shift family. Then the leader (like William Pierce), stuffs their heads with all sorts of dehumanizing, violent rhetoric and sits back and laughs as these lost, confused young people decide to act on it and kill other people. Then the brainwashed kid goes to prison, death row or gets killed themselves while the org's leader gets to sit pretty and hide behind free speech protections to wash their hands of the responsibility for the violence their rhetoric causes. The movie, American History X, portrayed this well. It's the only Hollywood movie I know of so far that portrayed that accurately and showed how the youth sucked up into those groups are victims in a way, themselves. (Higher Learning was another movie that touched on that, with the Remy character.)