English Nationalism and Independence

[Laika]

Typically in the United Kingdom, the major arguments in our national politics are made for Scottish, Welsh and Irish independence. On a rare occasion, you may here Cornwall mentioned. However, I'm curious on what people's thoughts are on England declaring independence from the UK.

Historically, there is an uneasy dissonance between being "British" and "English". They aren't exactly the same thing, but England generally has had a somewhat more privileged place in the Union. So it doesn't come up a great deal because the English often have less to complain about and fewer memories of historical grievances (especially where Ireland is concerned). Whereas Scotland, Wales and Ireland tend to have more left-wing nationalist movement because of Anti-imperialism, English Nationalism is usually the reserve of the far-right, often associated with racism and football hooliganism.

I know Americans are very used to public displays of their national flag and having watched too much american television, the American flag is something you kind of accept being in the background. But if you see an England flag hanging up in someone's window and there isn't a football match on this evening, it probably means the person is racist. Maybe its not quite the same as a Confederate flag given the Confederacy's direct association with and defence of slavery, but an England flag is still going to make the more PC among us cringe in the wrong context. It's not always true and I can be very wrong on this point, but that's the kind of association you get from it.

So I am kind of curious what people's thoughts are on English Independence? And do you think English Nationalism can serve progressive causes like those in Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

 

[Martin]

Typically in the United Kingdom, the major arguments in our national politics are made for Scottish, Welsh and Irish independence. On a rare occasion, you may here Cornwall mentioned. However, I'm curious on what people's thoughts are on England declaring independence from the UK.

Historically, there is an uneasy dissonance between being "British" and "English". They aren't exactly the same thing, but England generally has had a somewhat more privileged place in the Union. So it doesn't come up a great deal because the English often have less to complain about and fewer memories of historical grievances (especially where Ireland is concerned). Whereas Scotland, Wales and Ireland tend to have more left-wing nationalist movement because of Anti-imperialism, English Nationalism is usually the reserve of the far-right, often associated with racism and football hooliganism.

I know Americans are very used to public displays of their national flag and having watched too much american television, the American flag is something you kind of accept being in the background. But if you see an England flag hanging up in someone's window and there isn't a football match on this evening, it probably means the person is racist. Maybe its not quite the same as a Confederate flag given the Confederacy's direct association with and defence of slavery, but an England flag is still going to make the more PC among us cringe in the wrong context. It's not always true and I can be very wrong on this point, but that's the kind of association you get from it.

So I am kind of curious what people's thoughts are on English Independence? And do you think English Nationalism can serve progressive causes like those in Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

Yes, English nationalism always looks quite regressive to me: zenophobic, Little Britain, Brexit, etc.
This mentality will probably say "good riddance" to Northern Ireland and Scotland when they eventually leave the Union.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Typically in the United Kingdom, the major arguments in our national politics are made for Scottish, Welsh and Irish independence. On a rare occasion, you may here Cornwall mentioned. However, I'm curious on what people's thoughts are on England declaring independence from the UK.

Historically, there is an uneasy dissonance between being "British" and "English". They aren't exactly the same thing, but England generally has had a somewhat more privileged place in the Union. So it doesn't come up a great deal because the English often have less to complain about and fewer memories of historical grievances (especially where Ireland is concerned). Whereas Scotland, Wales and Ireland tend to have more left-wing nationalist movement because of Anti-imperialism, English Nationalism is usually the reserve of the far-right, often associated with racism and football hooliganism.

I know Americans are very used to public displays of their national flag and having watched too much american television, the American flag is something you kind of accept being in the background. But if you see an England flag hanging up in someone's window and there isn't a football match on this evening, it probably means the person is racist. Maybe its not quite the same as a Confederate flag given the Confederacy's direct association with and defence of slavery, but an England flag is still going to make the more PC among us cringe in the wrong context. It's not always true and I can be very wrong on this point, but that's the kind of association you get from it.

So I am kind of curious what people's thoughts are on English Independence? And do you think English Nationalism can serve progressive causes like those in Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

So how does English independence from the UK even work out since English started the UK and fought centuries of bloody wars to preserve it?
Would it be like when Russia pulled the plug on the Soviet Union?

 

[Altfish]

I'm English but am ashamed of my 'country'; I will always say I am Mancunian, British or European ahead of saying English.

 

[Altfish]

The Union Jack and the English Flag have become right-wing symbols. I went for a bottle of milk today it had a Union Jack on it, I nearly didn't bother.

To answer the question, no, I don't think England will ever call for its independence, it enjoys bullying the other nations too much.
I do hope Scotland gets independence and Ireland becomes unified again, Wales, I'm not sure of.

 

[exchemist]

Typically in the United Kingdom, the major arguments in our national politics are made for Scottish, Welsh and Irish independence. On a rare occasion, you may here Cornwall mentioned. However, I'm curious on what people's thoughts are on England declaring independence from the UK.

Historically, there is an uneasy dissonance between being "British" and "English". They aren't exactly the same thing, but England generally has had a somewhat more privileged place in the Union. So it doesn't come up a great deal because the English often have less to complain about and fewer memories of historical grievances (especially where Ireland is concerned). Whereas Scotland, Wales and Ireland tend to have more left-wing nationalist movement because of Anti-imperialism, English Nationalism is usually the reserve of the far-right, often associated with racism and football hooliganism.

I know Americans are very used to public displays of their national flag and having watched too much american television, the American flag is something you kind of accept being in the background. But if you see an England flag hanging up in someone's window and there isn't a football match on this evening, it probably means the person is racist. Maybe its not quite the same as a Confederate flag given the Confederacy's direct association with and defence of slavery, but an England flag is still going to make the more PC among us cringe in the wrong context. It's not always true and I can be very wrong on this point, but that's the kind of association you get from it.

So I am kind of curious what people's thoughts are on English Independence? And do you think English Nationalism can serve progressive causes like those in Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

I find your comments very perceptive. Also highly topical, given the recent transformation of the Conservative party into what is in effect the English Nationalist party and the resulting impetus for Scotland and maybe, in time, N. Ireland to secede from the Union. I too find displays of the flag of St George rather suspect, unless flown by a Church of England church or at a rugby match. In other contexts it is a flag I associate with pot-bellied, tattooed thugs.

We have a real problem now in the UK. John Major always said that Blair's attempt to appease nationalist sentiment in the Celtic nations by creating devolved parliaments would end up destroying the Union. The subsequent triumph of the Little Englander wing of the Tory party, which gave us Brexit and then drove out all the most capable people from the party, has accelerated the process.

I think we will need some kind of devolution for England too, to bring things back into balance, but probably this should not be at the level of England itself but at the level of regions, in order to help address the imbalance in England towards the South-East. Conceivably one could envisage a federal structure in which England was divided into blocks comparable in size to the Celtic nations, and Westminster served as a federal government above them all.

 

[Secret Chief]

I think there will be an England nation alone (free to trade with Liberia) by default as the other nations walk off; probably in the order Scotland, Northern Ireland and (one day) Wales.

 

[ChristineM]

I am English but embarrassed by what england has become. England (britain) has always been multi racial, i very much doubt if there are many genetically british people alive today. Go back to the last ice age and every single brit is a "foreigner"

Racism to me is one of the worst evils a society can develop, like a sun producing iron, a nation producing racism is at it's end.

And yet racism has patted england on the shoulder, taken it to the pub and they have become best buddies of the right and extremist population.

Whenever i see a British or English flag in someone's window my immediate thought is britain first, bnp, racial preservation society, white national party etc. It's been that way since the national front hijacked the union flag as their symbol of right wing white supremacy.

Rant over..

I would like to see the UK broken up with Scotland, northern Ireland and possible Wales going their separate ways.

 

[Altfish]

Having said that there will be no English Independence campaign; I do think there will be more and more pressure for devolved regional government.. Certainly in the north we feel totally ignored by Westminster

 

[Jacob25]

Typically in the United Kingdom, the major arguments in our national politics are made for Scottish, Welsh and Irish independence. On a rare occasion, you may here Cornwall mentioned. However, I'm curious on what people's thoughts are on England declaring independence from the UK.

Historically, there is an uneasy dissonance between being "British" and "English". They aren't exactly the same thing, but England generally has had a somewhat more privileged place in the Union. So it doesn't come up a great deal because the English often have less to complain about and fewer memories of historical grievances (especially where Ireland is concerned). Whereas Scotland, Wales and Ireland tend to have more left-wing nationalist movement because of Anti-imperialism, English Nationalism is usually the reserve of the far-right, often associated with racism and football hooliganism.

I know Americans are very used to public displays of their national flag and having watched too much american television, the American flag is something you kind of accept being in the background. But if you see an England flag hanging up in someone's window and there isn't a football match on this evening, it probably means the person is racist. Maybe its not quite the same as a Confederate flag given the Confederacy's direct association with and defence of slavery, but an England flag is still going to make the more PC among us cringe in the wrong context. It's not always true and I can be very wrong on this point, but that's the kind of association you get from it.

So I am kind of curious what people's thoughts are on English Independence? And do you think English Nationalism can serve progressive causes like those in Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

I have always thought England looked good in pictures. But their furniture is weird little stuff, and their ceilings are only 6 ft.! (1.9 meters)

I hear most of the Beatles are dead.

 

[Laika]

Would it be like when Russia pulled the plug on the Soviet Union?

Yes, probably. English Independence would lead to total chaos in the UK. But its implications are a total unknown because its so unlikely.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But if you see an England flag hanging up in someone's window and there isn't a football match on this evening, it probably means the person is racist. Maybe its not quite the same as a Confederate flag given the Confederacy's direct association with and defence of slavery, but an England flag is still going to make the more PC among us cringe in the wrong context.

Wow, are you guys that far gone to the point that your own flag is now "racist"? How sad.

I believe in nationalism for everyone. Everyone should look out for their own. It's probably for the best if the countries making up the Union go their own way eventually, but I don't have a strong opinion on it either way.

 

[ChristineM]

Wow, are you guys that far gone to the point that your own flag is now "racist"? How sad.

I believe in nationalism for everyone. Everyone should look out for their own. It's probably for the best if the countries making up the Union go their own way eventually.

The flag has become a symbol of racism by being adopted by racist groups as their symbol

Examples

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The flag has become a symbol of racism by being adopted by racist groups as their symbol

But it's the flag of England. Who cares if some far-right groups use it? It's the nation's flag, not belonging to any partisan political group.

 

[ChristineM]

But it's the flag of England. Who cares if some far-right groups use it? It's the nation's flag, not belonging to any partisan political group.

When you have the flag forced at you, you are beaten to the ground andsee your children beaten by yobs proudly bearing the union flag your attitude to that symbol changes

Its a symbol of what the uk has become

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

When you have the flag forced at you, you are beaten to the ground andsee your children beaten by yobs proudly bearing the union flag your attitude to that symbol changes

Yeah, okay. I'm sure that that is a regular occurrence and has happened to hundreds of thousands or millions of people.

Oh, and those images you posted are using the Union Jack, not the Flag of England.
Flag of England - Wikipedia

 

[Rival]

Wow folks sure do love to hate this country. It seems to be in fashion to hate your birthplace and have no patriotism whatsoever. No wonder all our kids hate us and spit on our values.

Sad.

 

[ChristineM]

Yeah, okay. I'm sure that that is a regular occurrence and has happened to hundreds of thousands or millions of people.

I know similar has happend to other people.

Racist crime has double in the last 5 years

 

[ChristineM]

Wow folks sure do love to hate this country. It seems to be in fashion to hate your birthplace and have no patriotism whatsoever. No wonder all our kids hate us and spit on our values.

Sad.

Tell the far right to behave like British gentlemen rather than thugs and hooligans then perhaps that british spirit can be recovered.

 

[Rival]

Tell the far right to behave like British gentlemen rather than thugs and hooligans then perhaps that british spirit can be recovered.

I haven't seen much of a far right in this country. I don't know where you're getting this from.