English Nationalism and Independence

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow folks sure do love to hate this country. It seems to be in fashion to hate your birthplace and have no patriotism whatsoever. No wonder all our kids hate us and spit on our values.

Sad.

Same in America. We've been brainwashed into hating ourselves and our kids are hopeless nihilists addicted to phones and (anti-)social media.

 

[ChristineM]

I haven't seen much of a far right in this country. I don't know where you're getting this from.

You are lucky.

Where i am getting it from is at least partly from personal experience and personally i think that counts for a lot

Hate crimes double in five years in England and Wales


Hate crime, England and Wales, 2019 to 2020

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Tell the far right to behave like British gentlemen rather than thugs and hooligans then perhaps that british spirit can be recovered.

This isn't the '70s anymore. Even the groups whose logos you posted - the BNP and NF - are basically dead. Those types of groups, however, are mostly made up of angry working class and poor white youth who feel left behind, disenfranchised and that no one in the mainstream is representing them, and guess what? The numbers of those people are growing and growing in the US and the UK, and probably elsewhere in the West. Most of them won't be joining extremist groups these days, though. So maybe we should try actually listening to their grievances as people instead of shaming them. Because they're not going away and the problem is only festering and growing worse.

 

[ChristineM]

This isn't the '70s anymore. Even the groups whose logos you posted - the BNP and NF - are basically dead. Those types of groups, however, are mostly made up of angry working class and poor white youth who feel left behind and disenfranchised, and guess what? The numbers of those people are growing and growing in the US and the UK, and probably elsewhere in the US. Most of them won't be joining extremist groups these days, though. So maybe we should try actually listening to their grievances as people instead of shaming them. Because they're not going away and the problem is only festering and growing worse.

I was raised in the 7Os and 80s, so how about something more modern

You listen to them all you want, then the violence stops and the perps duly tried maybe i will listen

 

[Rival]

You are lucky.

Where i am getting it from is at least partly from personal experience and personally i think that counts for a lot

Hate crimes double in five years in England and Wales

PDF
Hate crime, England and Wales, 2019 to 2020

Here's the issue there:

Hate crimes are actually falling. The issue is how the police define a hate-crime. Now in this country we have what's called a 'crime non-crime' (yes, this is real) which can appear on your DBS checks, even though you haven't actually committed an offence. One man was harrassed by the police over something he said about trans folks on twitter that was completely legal and he ended up taking the police to court and he won. Police probe into former officer’s ‘transphobic’ tweets ruled unlawful by High Court | The Independent | The Independent

More and more folks are being encouraged to report being offended as a hate crime. It's not. So what has happened is that reports of hate crimes have gone up (and end up as 'crime non crime'!) but actual hate incidents have not gone up.

"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."

Is hate crime really on the rise? | The Spectator

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was raised in the 7Os and 80s, so how about something more modern
View attachment 48126


You listen to them all you want, then the violence stops and the perps duly tried maybe i will listen

Well, we're being told to listen to the grievances of far-left rioters and looters - people who burned police stations to the ground - so we should listen to the "other side" just to be fair.

 

[ChristineM]

Here's the issue there:

Hate crimes are actually falling. The issue is how the police define a hate-crime. Now in this country we have what's called a 'crime non-crime' (yes, this is real) which can appear on your DBS checks, even though you haven't actually committed an offence. One man was harrassed by the police over something he said about trans folks on twitter that was completely legal and he ended up taking the police to court and he won. Police probe into former officer’s ‘transphobic’ tweets ruled unlawful by High Court | The Independent | The Independent

More and more folks are being encouraged to report being offended as a hate crime. It's not. So what has happened is that reports of hate crimes have gone up (and end up as 'crime non crime'!) but actual hate incidents have not gone up.

"For recording purposes, the perception of the victim, or any other person, is the defining factor in determining whether an incident is a hate incident, or in recognising the hostility element of a hate crime. The victim does not have to justify or provide evidence of their belief, and police officers or staff should not directly challenge this perception. Evidence of the hostility is not required for an incident or crime to be recorded as a hate crime or hate incident."

Is hate crime really on the rise? | The Spectator

Ok you read a conservative newspaper pandering to the right.

I provided a gov report that indicates precisely the opposite. I wonder which has most credibility?

From that report

I wonder how the spectator spins that

 

[ChristineM]

Well, we're being told to listen to the grievances of far-left rioters and looters - people who burned police stations to the ground - so we should listen to the "other side" just to be fair.

If you want, i personally do not listen to anyone who uses violence as a negotiating tactic

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you want

I try to understand why people are angry and feel left behind, regardless of politics. There are clear socio-economic reasons why populist movements and radical political movements come about, and it's usually because people feel they aren't being heard by mainstream politicians who are screwing them over. So they look for an alternative. This is a natural thing to do. No one wants to live in hell willingly.

 

[ChristineM]

I try to understand why people are angry and feel left behind, regardless of politics. There are clear socio-economic reasons why populist movements and radical political movements come about, and it's usually because people feel they aren't being heard by mainstream politicians who are screwing them over. So they look for an alternative. This is a natural thing to do. No one wants to live in hell willingly.

Yes, terrorist use the same criteria.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, terrorist use the same criteria.

Because "lone wolf" terrorism these days is a product of the same circumstances driving people to extremism in general.

 

[Rival]

Ok you read a conservative newspaper pandering to the right.

I provided a gov report that indicates precisely the opposite. I wonder which has most credibility?

From that report
View attachment 48129
I wonder how the spectator spins that

Here's what that report says:

• in year ending March 2020, there were 105,090 hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales, excluding Greater Manchester police, an increase of 8 per cent compared with year ending March 2019 (97,446 offences)
• increases in police recorded hate crime in recent years have been driven by improvements in crime recording and a better identification of what constitutes a hate crime
• in contrast, the CSEW which is not affected by changes in crime recording, shows a long-term decline in hate crime, with a 38% fall in these incidents between the combined year ending March 2008 and year ending March 2009 and the combined year ending March 2018, year ending March 2019 and year ending March 2020 surveys.

Hate crime is defined as ‘any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal characteristic.’

That is, they don't need any evidence. That's not a crime.

 

[ChristineM]

in year ending March 2020, there were 105,090 hate crimes recorded by the police in England and Wales, excluding Greater Manchester police, an increase of 8 per cent compared with year ending March 2019 (97,446 offences)

Ain't bold fun.

increases in police recorded hate crime in recent years have been driven by improvements in crime recording and a better identification of what constitutes a hate crime

And? So hate crime is better understood and it's still increasing

Hate crime is defined as ‘any criminal offence which is perceived, by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice towards someone based on a personal characteristic.’

That is, they don't need any evidence. That's not a crime.

Judges do not pronounce on perceived but on evidence.

 

[ChristineM]

Because "lone wolf" terrorism these days is a product of the same circumstances driving people to extremism in general.

As do terrorist groups.

 

[Rival]

Ain't bold fun.



And? So hate crime is better understood and it's still increasing





Judges do not pronounce on perceived but on evidence.

No. They're not being better understood. Folks are being encouraged to report MORE things as hate crimes that even the police say are not crimes. These are just reported crimes. Of course you're going to see 'increases' when the threshold for what constitutes a thing is widened.

Why the hell are folks so desperate to see hate crime increases anyway??

 

[Rival]

Here's what's going on:

This is from The College of Policing,

Responding to non-crime hate incidents (college.police.uk)

Not every reported incident is a crime. If officers are unsure whether a reported incident amounts to a crime, an initial investigation should be undertaken to establish the facts to determine whether it is a hate crime or a non-crime hate incident.

Where it is established that a criminal offence has not taken place, but the victim or any other person perceives that the incident was motivated wholly or partially by hostility, it should be recorded and flagged as a non-crime hate incident.

 

[ChristineM]

No. They're not being better understood. Folks are being encouraged to report MORE things as hate crimes that even the police say are not crimes. These are just reported crimes. Of course you're going to see 'increases' when the threshold for what constitutes a thing is widened.

Why the hell are folks so desperate to see hate crime increases anyway??

Interesting because part of what you posted reads

increases in police recorded hate crime in recent years have been driven by improvements in crime recording and a better identification of what constitutes a hate crime

I for one would very much like racial/hate crime to reduce to zero, just because is increasing in no way means people are desperate for it to increase. But i see no benefit in denying what even the government reluctantly accept

 

[Rival]

Interesting because part of what you posted reads



I for one would very much like racial/hate crime to reduce to zero, just because is increasing in no way means people are desperate for it to increase. But i see no benefit in denying what even the government reluctantly accept

Someone being offended is not a crime. Even the police are saying this.

 

[ChristineM]

Here's what's going on:

This is from The College of Policing,

Responding to non-crime hate incidents (college.police.uk)

Not every reported incident is a crime. If officers are unsure whether a reported incident amounts to a crime, an initial investigation should be undertaken to establish the facts to determine whether it is a hate crime or a non-crime hate incident.

Where it is established that a criminal offence has not taken place, but the victim or any other person perceives that the incident was motivated wholly or partially by hostility, it should be recorded and flagged as a non-crime hate incident.

Why are you so desperate to cover it up?

You are now moving goalposts to "non crime incident's"

 

[ChristineM]

Someone being offended is not a crime. Even the police are saying this.

Correct, someone beening assaulted is a crime