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Encountered Entities on Ayahuasca

Discussion in 'Shamanism DIR' started by Goat, Jun 15, 2006.

  1. Goat

    Goat Member

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    I have gotten in contact with several entities when I allow myself the indulgence of permitting their existance. I'm normally a hard-headed rationalist but I enjoy flights of fantasy too. This is I am sure a matter of one's own prececption but I have found a certain pattern that they all follow and would like to know if anyone else has had similar experiences. As I say this is pure fantasy- but shared fantasy would be strange and wonderful. I decline to say how these dellusions were cultivated. PM me if you want to know.

    Qualities of Entities I've encountered
    - Communicate through gesticulation similar to sign language but far more complex
    - Are very lethal looking, yet assure a kind of commrodary.
    - Describe levels of attainment to permit meetings with higher level entities. Demand intellectual battles of wit, toleration of terrifying awe for promotion.
    - Reveal wisdom through puns.
    - Are contemptuous of any conceptualization of themselves. (They'll hate me for this)

    Kinds of Entities
    - Snake Entity: Was very ancient, instructed me to always lock eyes with it and it's minions else I would have to be swallowed. First one encountered.
    - Spider Entity: A terrifier. Bastian of the ghastly. It's pursuit of prey is paradoxicly in the spirit of affection.
    - Tree Entity: Femanine aspect. Was reminded continually of a sort of family relationship to her. She felt like an aunt or grandmother.
    - Horned Entity: Wrathful being capable of imparting feelings of guilt and punishment, but does so in a spirit of teaching the ignorant.

    and many more!..

    These archatypes are my own creation as far as I know. Share your ideas.
     
  2. Nehustan

    Nehustan Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find they're not of your own creation, in fact if they were they wouldn't be archetypes. There is lots of interesting stuff on 'the soul vine', I keep meaning to attend a ceremony over in Holland, but as it is I keep putting it off. That said I hope to experience 'the little death' prior to experiencing death proper. There's something I read on this a few years ago...I'll try and find it...

    It's a chapter from a book you might like, called 'Discovering the Way' by an anthroplogist who describes his time spent in Equador and Peru. Link below....

    Amazon.com: Shamanism: A Reader: Graham Harvey: Books

    and here at 1/2 the price...

    AbeBooks: Search Results - ISBN 0415253306
     
  3. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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  4. SkinnyCheruscian

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    Please, don't mistake drug trips for what Native American Religions do with these sacred plants.

    As what regards hallucinogen tripping, think twice before doing it, and rather don't do it. It's silly. Next thing to consider is toxicity. Ayahuasca is a mix of two drugs and for this reason toxicologically a lot more dangerous than other hallucinogens. You don't wanna die or wake up in hospital.

    I have done my small share of low dose tripping when I was young but I found it hollow. It was like a fantastic mickey mouse movie in ten directions and at times having the intesity of a religious experience, but completely and totally meaningless (which is so much in contrast to the intensity) and very, very, exhausting/mind bending. Not worth if you ask me.

    I have come in touch a bit with Native American religion (without drugs), and since I have a lot respect for teh "power plants". If you ever have seen how serious Native Americans are when worshipping, and how respectful and careful those cultures using them are about the power plants,there is no way assuming that drug trips have anything in common with it. Native American religions are diverse but seem to have in common that they assert that Spirit exists, it is very a different thing than our phantasies, and must be respected, else it can result in damage.
     
  5. Ba'al

    Ba'al Active Member

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    Can you provide some cases of this claim? I've been reading up on ayahuasca for quite some time and as far as I know it's very safe. There has never been a recorded death. I would think it's like other natural hallucinogens, the dangers aren't from the substance but from acting like fool and injuring yourself because they aren't taken for the right purpose and in the proper environment.
     
  6. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    I would advise approaching these "products" with extreme caution and only after lengthy consultation with people who have recognized expertise with said products. A single ingestion can produce a life-changing event that the individual will never forget. They are not toys, in any way, shape or form. It isn't so much physical death that I'd be concerned about, it is more that an unprepared individual could well be playing Russian Roulette with their sanity.
     
  7. Ba'al

    Ba'al Active Member

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    Again, I haven't heard of any cases of people losing their sanity. Bad trips, yes. Maybe you have?
     
  8. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    What isn't understood very well, Ba'al, at least from my personal perspective is that any psychedelic experiences are instances of artificial insanity due to the fact that once the agents take effect, one is very hard pressed to control the experience, especially in the early stages.

    If you have any other questions, feel free to Pm me. My views are not for general consumption, as it were.
     
  9. Scarlett Wampus

    Scarlett Wampus psychonaut

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    Non-psychedelic experiences are instances of artificial sanity.
     
  10. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    :rolleyes:
     
  11. Hevenly Heathen

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    Why are you using ayahuasca? Are you serious about following shamanic paths, or doing it for the trip? I have lived in the South Western United States my whole life and have seen too many people make lite of a serious path requiring much commitment and discipline.

    I hope you are serious, but from the entities you described, and how, it seems like you are dabbling.

    Find a teacher, and study. Stay away from from trance inducing plants until you know more.

    I would be happy to talk to you about it, as I have years of study in a few shamanic paths, but please refrain from inducing trances any other way than meditation for now.
     
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  12. Scarlett Wampus

    Scarlett Wampus psychonaut

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    Heavenly Heaven the opening post goes back to 2006. Goat is long gone. Its still an interesting and provocative beginning though so let's imagine that Goat is still reading.

    You say find a teacher and stay away from trance states. What in your opinion should someone look for if they want a teacher? How can they tell the genuine article from the charlatans?
     
  13. Ba'al

    Ba'al Active Member

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    Hevenly Heathen, I would be interested in what more you have to say about shamanism. I will be starting a 3 year shamanic program in September and am interested in ayahuasca. I have experience with other psychedelic substances and believe they are here for a purpose, spiritual growth being one.
     
  14. Mikael

    Mikael ...

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    And sane psychedelic non-experiences are artificial instances.
     
  15. Hevenly Heathen

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    Psychedelic plants were used as crutches. There are many shamanic paths which do not use them at all and have traditions which induce trances through meditation. The plants draw too much attention, sadly, and take away from a rich path, but when used with wisdom and firm intent, they are often invaluable. Around my part of the world, peyote is the plant of choice as well as another cacti - whose name currently eludes me. Further south is a strain of morning glory seeds and salvia divorum. There is also

    Teachers from charlatans are often difficult when a seeker has little experience. Look for one who teaches more by example and granting opportunities to gain experience, in other words, look for a teacher who teaches without teaching. Stay clear from anyone making grand claims and guaranteed success, or claiming X generations of knowledge. A real teacher will be confident enough to not need to sell themselves.

    I would say that my teachers found me. There is a Taoist belief that if you provide for yourself a teacher will find you.

    Much of many shamans knew came from Nature, this could also help you determine the legitimacy of a teacher: see how he treats everything, his reverence to the natural world. One fairly common belief is that all are related, like brothers and sisters, even rocks and plants are included in this. All have spirits, all have lessons, have identity, have life.

    I am starting to ramble, but am willing to answer any questions, feel free to ask and I will do my best.

    Luck to you.
     
  16. SkinnyCheruscian

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    You can confirm the information I gave, and which I explain further down in some detail, from sources that are not anti-drug, e.g. erowid.

    As what regards cases, I don't have access to such data. But hospitalisations exist.

    The question to backup my"claims" can be reversed: where's the evidence behind the view that ayahuasca is safe? Only because people repeat this it doesn't mean it's true.

    You can also make your own conclusions from trip reports, that often involve violent vomiting and passing out. It is clear from that that ayahuasca is a hallucinogen with heavy side effects, in contrast e.g. to LSD.

    Ayahuasca contains extracts of at least two plants. One contains the DMT, the other (some times called admixture) contains enzyme inhibitors called MAO inhibitors in pharmacological jargon.

    When taken orally, DMT is normally degraded by enzymes in the gut before it can be taken up. That's why the MAO inhibitors are needed. They have no psychotropic effect on their own. However, the MAO enzymes are degrading not only DMT, but a lot of bad stuff too, thus one has to avoid quite a number of foods a certain time before taking the ayahuasca. Same applies for medication: certain medication can be dangerous when on MAO inhibitors.

    If supervised by someone who knows what s/he is doing, and if in good health, the risk of ayahuasca is probably manageable. But if you would apply the safety criteria required for any prescription drug, and not taking into account the hallucinogenic properties (i.e. speaking of risk of pharmacological interaction alone) I would reckon that the chances to get ayahuasca approved were limited at best, in contrast say to LSD which has few side effects.

    That's a problem with the internet-anti-drug-prohibition community: If the talk was about some pharmaceutical company and their products, people are very critical. If we talk about drugs, they seem apply completely different criteria.

    I am not against hallucinogens and oppose the war against drugs. With the prohibition, one has the choice between chemical street drugs of uncertain quality and strength, and plants, that have either been banned (thus same problem of uncertain quality and adulterants) or exist in a legal loophole where possessing the plant is legal but preparing it for consumption is illegal. There are fewer and fewer plants in that legal loophole, and those remaining and sold over the internet as "not for human consumption" are not the pharmacologically safest, quite to the contrary. To be fair, ayahuasca is probably not the worst, these are arguably henblane and datura (not classical hallucinogens, they induce deliria, and are very dangerous). The pharmacologically safer hallucinogens have been banned (e.g. psilocybin mushrooms, and currently Salvia divinorum).
     
  17. SkinnyCheruscian

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    If I may comment on this, be really careful. There is a lot of rubbish around in the "spiritual workshop" field.

    Traditionally, these ways were not taught in courses or programs. Which does not necessarily mean that it is categorically wrong to change the ways these techniques are taught. However, three year course sounds a bit dodgy to me. I hope you don't have to pay up front? Traditionally there was little if any money involved in learning these ways. Shamans /Medicine people rather took on, on top of their normal responsibilities as hunters (or shepherds or farmers), the difficult and demanding task to mediate between the spirit world and their communities, working as healers and diviners.

    I have the following reservations:
    1) A certain number of neo-shamans are simply quacks. They have no powers whatsoever, just money-greedy imposters and pretenders. They often use a very flowery and colourful New Agey imagery. However, they mistake their imaginations and fantasies for contacts with the spirit world. In the traditional context, shamans and medicine people serve the community and can be judged by their reputaion: are they good healers, are they trustworthy? This is difficult, if at all possible, to judge outside the traditional context.

    2) Other people have certain powers, but don't have the integrity or maturity needed to lead others. Some people get their little power trips, like, now I am the big guru. Some also are money-greedy.

    3) In the traditional context, the powers will find you, not the other way around. It is kind of a vocation to become a shaman or medicine (wo)man. So I encourage you to look further, but be open for all possibilities - maybe it turns out that your vocation is something different. Trying to advance faster as it would be the case in the traditional way can lead to problems, such as how to integrate deep experiences of the spirit world with your personal life. Good things just take their time, be patient and trust "the powers".

    My scepticism is based on my limited experience with sweat lodges from the "New Age" workshop field, and more regular experiences of the "traditonal" (Lakota) ritual, how I have known it for about thirty years through a friend (not a Native American, but trained the traditional way) who has lived on a SD rez in the 1970s. Basically everybody participating in the "New Age" sweat was doing some type of "shamanic" stuff, but I found this not credible at all. In the sweat like I know it from my friend, there are certain apparitions that are interpreted as evidence of the supernatural or the spirits, such as light sparks, sometimes other visual appearances and sometimes sounds. These are not perceived by all participants. At the end, the leader says which spirits were there. However, the spirits are not the most important thing in a traditional sweat lodge, the important thing is to pray. Regarding the spirit world I am not very talented in perceiving these things. However, when I did, this has always matched what was said at the end. I am a very rational person, and have no real explanation how the leader could know this unless there was something. I think there IS something, but I am not sure what it is. But what was clear from the New Age sweat, that they had no contact whatsoever with the level called in the traditional context "spirit world", whatever that is. Of course you could say, because these people were from a different set than me, I was not able to feel empathy with them, and this is why it did not work. But I don't think so, I really tried to be positive and supportive despite my reservations. Moreover, the leader did not mention any visits of the spirit world at the end. Still, the workshop was called something like "spirit lodge". I think the leader just did not have the "qualification" which made sense as he was quite young. Becoming a sweat lodge leader the traditional way takes at least eight years, but most people take longer (because it is too tough to do it in one go), and after that they are considered beginners. This guy however reported having first come into contact with the ritual ten years ago, and now offers not only sweat lodges against fees, but also three-year training courses to bec ome a sweat lodge leader. All this just as an example how traditional knowledge is commercialised and watered down.
     
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  18. SkinnyCheruscian

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    If I may leave a last (shorter) post:
    I agree with Hevenly Heathen that drugs are very much overrated. They lead to spectacular effects, but control is difficult, and even if undertaken with serious intentions, most of the trip will be just hallucinations.

    I know quite a few people who have started with drug-induced spiritual paths, but then gave this up in favour of other ways.
     
  19. Mr Cheese

    Mr Cheese Well-Known Member

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    many use the term archetype in terms of Jung, incorrectly...

    which would refer to things they just made up, of the psyche....

    Of course such beings are often given shape and form by the psyche, but this does not mean that all are merely creations of the self.

    Actual encounters of this kind, tend to destroy any book's depiction....
    It is the difference between watching pornography on television and making love to a person you love..... the difference for all the virgins, is immense.
     
    #19 Mr Cheese, Mar 3, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  20. Mr Cheese

    Mr Cheese Well-Known Member

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    how much money they want
    if their techniques or what they are teaching, actually works
    if they laugh at you (not good)
    if they only tell half of the information you really need (bad)

    I think these are good guidelines off the top of my head.
     
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