Egypt moves to ban Elton John

[Kilgore Trout]

True that this is mainly an ideological battle.

So, should western nations be allowed to oppose the spread of Islam in their countries as part of this ideological battle?

 

[Panda]

Who told you exactly that I believe in absolute freedom without restrictions? When needed, corruption should be fought and restricted. Who told you exactly I believe in liberal art or in any art that oppose the Islamic values? I believe art should be inside the frame of moral values, of course not every thing should be censored but I don't believe to allow a sex scene in a movie for example, etc.

How can you compare a sex scene with the fact Sir Elton John is gay?

I strongly oppose westernization of our societies and the mentalities of our youth. The amount of the imported ideas and values from the West is amazing, and these imported ideas are the bad corrupting ones and which gradually erase our uniqueness as Muslims, Arabs and Egyptians. True that this is mainly an ideological battle.

So you are saying that accepting gay people is "bad and corrupting"? I really hope I am getting the wrong impression here not4me I always thought much more of you than this.

 

[Draka]

I'm sure they have gay members, just like America has probably had atheist presidents in the past. They just know well enough to not admit it outloud.

That reminds me of a roommate I had in the barracks when in the Navy. We were discussing our senior proms and I had talked about hanging out with the Drama Club as a whole at mine and it was a big conglomerate of straight, gay and bisexual people and everyone was dancing with everyone and how fun it was and she looked at me wide-eyed and straight-faced and told me how that would have never happened at her prom because..."We don't have gays in Ohio"

 

[Sahar]

So, should western nations be allowed to oppose the spread of Islam in their countries as part of this ideological battle?

There are already ideological, intellectual, social and military battles against Islam...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

There are already ideological, intellectual, social and military battles against Islam...

Right, but you're making it sound on the other end, that your ideological battle is reasonable. If the west were also waging an ideological battle, why is it any different for them than for you?

 

[xkatz]

I strongly oppose westernization of our societies and the mentalities of our youth. The amount of the imported ideas and values from the West is amazing, and these imported ideas are the bad corrupting ones and which gradually erase our uniqueness as Muslims, Arabs and Egyptians. True that this is mainly an ideological battle.

You seem to be making sweeping generalizations. There is no "West" or "East". There is only what you make of the world. The problem is that people use religion and tradition to segregate themselves. I mean, I am fine with you keeping your customs, traditions, and religions, but I would not call restricting others freedom for arbitrary reasons "tradition". What have homosexuals done so wrongly?

 

[MSizer]

Who told you exactly that I believe in absolute freedom without restrictions? When needed, corruption should be fought and restricted. Who told you exactly I believe in liberal art or in any art that oppose the Islamic values? I believe art should be inside the frame of moral values, of course not every thing should be censored but I don't believe to allow a sex scene in a movie for example, etc.

I strongly oppose westernization of our societies and the mentalities of our youth. .

Yes I know, that's quite obvious.

The amount of the imported ideas and values from the West is amazing, and these imported ideas are the bad corrupting ones.

That is a matter of opinion, and it's so unspecific that I'm unable to refute it not on the grounds that it's correct, but that it has no content to refute.

and which gradually erase our uniqueness as Muslims, Arabs and Egyptians. .

That is an attitude which helps maintain divisions between human beings. It is not conducive to global comradery.

True that this is mainly an ideological battle.

No, it is a matter of deep emotional ties to ingroup loyalty, which is the opposite side of the coin to outgroup contempt.

 

[Sahar]

How can you compare a sex scene with the fact Sir Elton John is gay?

Well, the context of my post was general.

So you are saying that accepting gay people is "bad and corrupting"? I really hope I am getting the wrong impression here not4me I always thought much more of you than this.

Bad and corrupting includes many things, like your ideas, values and practices regarding sex; eg extramarital sex and yes homosexual practices, etc. There is no decent girl would say "I slept with this guy yesterday". Of course adultery and homosexuality are very frowned upon from social point of view and from Islamic point of view. Is this new to know?

Btw, have you ever expected me to welcome homosexual lifestyle? How many times Muslims here expressed their thoughts on this issue!!

 

[MSizer]

...she looked at me wide-eyed and straight-faced and told me how that would have never happened at her prom because..."We don't have gays in Ohio"

Yeah, much the same, my wife went to university with a guy from Johanesburg, and he told her that "there are no gay people in south africa". Then he added "well, maybe a few of the white people, but definitely not any of the black ones".

 

[Sahar]

You seem to be making sweeping generalizations. There is no "West" or "East". There is only what you make of the world. The problem is that people use religion and tradition to segregate themselves. I mean, I am fine with you keeping your customs, traditions, and religions, but I would not call restricting others freedom for arbitrary reasons "tradition". What have homosexuals done so wrongly?

Whose other freedoms exactly? A guy coming from another country for a concert?

So generally speaking, are you trying to tell me that the social norms in say France, Britain or the USA are the same as Egypt or Syria?

And yeah there is Islam vs Kufr.

 

[YmirGF]

Article

Elton John is supposed to give a private concert in Egypt May 18, but a music organization is colluding with authorities to ban him from performing.

"How do we allow a gay, who wants to ban religions, claimed that the prophet Eissa (Jesus) was gay and calls for Middle Eastern countries to allow gays to have sexual freedom?" head of the Egyptian Musician Union, Mounir al-Wasimi told the German Press Agency DPA.

I be inclined to ban his performance simply because he lost his originality and appeal long ago.

Anyway, why is this such a surprise? Egypt is pretty far removed from an "open society" and one can only wonder why Sir Reginald would agree to go in the first place. I rather doubt that he needs the money or more fame...

 

[xkatz]

Whose other freedoms exactly? A guy coming from another country for a concert?

So generally speaking, are you trying to tell me that the social norms in say France, Britain or the USA are the same as Egypt or Syria?

And yeah there is Islam vs Kufr.

I never said that Europe or the USA are the same as the Middle East. What I am saying is that is their a reason other than culture to be enemies? Is their a point to segregating the world?

Also, why should Muslims have to "fight" Kufr? Is their any purpose to this?

 

[MSizer]

...I am fine with you keeping your customs, traditions, and religions, but I would not call restricting others freedom for arbitrary reasons "tradition". What have homosexuals done so wrongly?

As not4me stated herself using slightly different words, yes, it is indeed a muslim tradition. Just like keeping slaves used to be a tradition in the god fearing bible belt. And that is exactly why I don't agree with the modern popular concept that religious tolerance is laudable. When we make it a taboo to oppose certain cultural practices, we protect them from criticism and in so doing, we stunt our own collective moral growth. The widespread idea that religious practices are sacred is a handicap in our strive toward improved human rights.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Anyway, why is this such a surprise? Egypt is pretty far removed from an "open society" and one can only wonder why Sir Reginald would agree to go in the first place.

I suspect for his fans who are a part of this closed society.

 

[YmirGF]

I suspect for his fans who are a part of this closed society.

Yet another "kingdom in the closet"?

 

[xkatz]

The widespread idea that religious practices are sacred is a handicap in our strive toward improved human rights.

It is not a matter of religion or religious practice itself, rather it is how people utilize their religion and practices.

 

[Sahar]

Right, but you're making it sound on the other end, that your ideological battle is reasonable. If the west were also waging an ideological battle, why is it any different for them than for you?

If it was a fair battle, I won't complain because I believe the clash between the now West and Islam (or Muslims) is inevitable. The Western ideologies and values conflict much with Islam, two opposites. This thought is manifested clearly in these threads:
modernism-scent-gunpowder.html
islam-story-3.html
has-western-civilization-brought-any-comfort.html
From the age of colonization, our societies went into a process of westernization. Imagine you import ideas and laws that aimed to solve problems and run lives of certain people to another people who face different problems and situations.
Imagine if you run your country (US?) by the Islamic laws and ideas...

We are used to the lies of the orientalists and many Muslims scholars replied to them but there is a new trend in some Western countries which is banning of the freedom of practice the religion, this is another level. We are not talking about Muslim countries that occupy yours, that impose sanctions on some Western countries or that put pressure on them to change the school curriculum...etc. You are talking about a world where there is no power balance and power is the only language that this world understands. Many Muslim counties are colonized economically and politically even after the end of military occupation.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Yet another "kingdom in the closet"?

Although I'm sure there is the same ratio of homosexuals in Egypt as in any other country, you don't have to be gay to want to see Elton John in concert. I'm sure many Egyptians would love to have the opportunity.

 

[MSizer]

I love the part where it states that many of the men in Saudi who have sex together don't consider themselves gay, but rather its' simply a means of fufilling a desire, and that it is not a matter of identifying oneself as gay.

I guess I'm not heterosexual, I just chose to fulfill my biological desires exclusively with women. Oh, and I'm not a vegetarian, I only eat vegetables, but that doesn't mean I'm actually a vegetarian, I'm an omnivore who doesn't eat meat. Oh, and I'm not a man. Biologically I am an adult male, and I live my life mainly within male social norms, but don't you ever call me a man.

 

[Sahar]

I never said that Europe or the USA are the same as the Middle East. What I am saying is that is their a reason other than culture to be enemies? Is their a point to segregating the world?

I have no problem to learn from other cultures and take the good from them but we lost the ability to choose between what is good, beneficial and in accordance with our values and on the other hand what is bad, harmful and in conflict with our values. And as I said, mainly the imported ideas are the bad and harmful ones.