Doing the Law

[sandy whitelinger]

That's a given for Paul. His argument is not a moral one or even a theological one, but one of assumption: given that God's law is obligatory (maybe good?), it's not just a matter of possessing the law or knowing the law, but doing it whether one actually knows it or not. Paul wasn't a very sophisticated apologist.

I disagree. In Paul's dissertation in Romans he makes it clear that all mankind will be judged with or without the Law which discounts the Law as being obligatory. He makes the case for justification outside of the Law.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

OP, do you mind explaining the purpose of this post? What are you trying to understand exactly, if it hasn't already been answered?

I'm trying to flesh out what it means to "do" the Law.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I disagree. In Paul's dissertation in Romans he makes it clear that all mankind will be judged with or without the Law which discounts the Law as being obligatory. He makes the case for justification outside of the Law.

"Without the law" means "non-Jewish". It doesn't mean that the law doesn't apply, but rather refers to those who can't be said to "possess" the law- Gentiles.
"Paul relativizes this difference between Jew and Gentile by arguing, in two parallel sentences, that "as many as sin without the law will also perish without the law" and "as many as sin in the law will be judged through the law." The parallelism between the sentences and the contrast with "justify" in v. 13 show that "will be judged" in the second sentence must denote the negative verdict of condemnation. Verse 23 of chap. 3 — "all have sinned" — shows that Paul would exempt no one from the verdict he here imposes. It is clear from these verses that Paul argues for universal human sinfulness, and a sinfulness of such a nature that condemnation must be the outcome.
Paul explains why even those who possess the law will nevertheless be condemned when they sin. It is because the law can justify only when it is obeyed; reading it, hearing it taught and preached, studying it — none of these, nor all of them together, can justify. This is the first time in Romans that Paul uses the verb "justify." As scholars now generally agree, it connotes the judicial decision of God to regard a sinner as "just" or "right" or "innocent" before him. God's abhorrence of any hearing of the law without doing it is a very customary Jewish teaching: for example, "Not the expounding [of the law] is the chief thing, but the doing [of it]." The NT embraces the principle as well (cf. Matt. 7:24-27; 12:50; Jas. 1:22-25). Whereas the principle in these examples has a hortatory purpose — to encourage obedience to the law or to the Word of God — Paul uses the principle to remind Jews of the standard of God's judgment. Only those who are doers of the law" will be declared right in the judgment"

Moo, D. (1996). The epistle to the Romans (The new international commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids: Eerdmans.

 

[greentwiga]

I'm trying to flesh out what it means to "do" the Law.

I think you are focusing on a 'straw dog.' Paul did say that any who did the law would be saved. James helps us understand. He says that when we live in a country, we have to obey that country's laws. If we break one, we are a law breaker and must suffer the consequences. It is the same with the Bible. It just takes one broken law to put us under God's judgement. I have talked with people from every religion. I ask them if they have obeyed every single law of their religion. None have said yes. Paul was making the same point. Salvation comes from obeying every single law, but in Chap 3, everyone has broken at least one. We all need a second way. That is the way of Jesus. When we are freed from focusing on how I am obeying the law, we are free to focus on loving others.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I think you are focusing on a 'straw dog.' Paul did say that any who did the law would be saved.

Verse please.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Paul isnt really saying that the only way to be justified is by the mosiac law.

He speaks of people of the nations who do not know the mosaic law, yet who actually live by that law 'naturally'

Perhaps this call into question what it means to "do" the Law. Is the "doing" of the Law an action or a result?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Is the "doing" of the Law an action or a result?

It's an action. That's why Paul speaks of Gentiles, who don't have the law, as still being able to "do" the law.

 

[Pegg]

Perhaps this call into question what it means to "do" the Law. Is the "doing" of the Law an action or a result?

to me it just means to live in harmony with Gods righteousness.

God had laws before the mosaic law was given, therefore the 'law' stands for Gods righteous standards which exist with or without a written law code.


When people of the nations do by nature the things of the law, they are 'doing' the law by living in harmony with what is right. Everything that God determines as righteous is law...we are expected to comply with that law. Do you need to be told 'not' to kill someone? Do you need to be told it is bad to steal from someone? Do you need to be told its bad to hurt someone? Do you need to be told that you should feed your children? These are things we already know...our conscience tells us and when we live in harmony with it, we are 'doing' the law.

 

[Ken Brown]

What is the purpose of "doing" the Law. Is it as Paul said in Romans that the "doers of the law shall be justified." Or is it an ongoing process of staying out of trouble? Perhaps a way or reconciling to God after sin? Something else? Is there an end purpose?

Your thoughts and insight please.

Hi Sandy, good question. I believe the purpose of "doing" the Law is to be saved when we are judged. All will be judged according to our "works/deeds," and the righteous will be saved, and the wicked will be condemned and not justified:

Exo 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Deu 25:1
(1) If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

1Ki 8:32
(32) Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

Job 34:11
(11) For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

Psa 7:8-9
(8) Yahweh shall judge the people: judge me, O Yahweh, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
(9) Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous Elohim trieth the hearts and reins.

Psa 28:3-5
(3) Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
(4) Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.
(5) Because they regard not the works of Yahweh, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up.

Psa 62:12
(12) Also unto thee, Yahweh, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

Pro 24:12
(12) If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Jer 17:10
(10) I Yahweh search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jer 21:14
(14) But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings, saith Yahweh: and I will kindle a fire in the forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about it.

Jer 25:14
(14) For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Jer 32:19
(19) Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:

Mat 16:27
(27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rom 2:6
(6) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

2Co 5:10
(10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev 2:23
(23) And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 20:12
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before Elohim; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 22:12
(12) And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[sincerly]

What is the purpose of "doing" the Law. Is it as Paul said in Romans that the "doers of the law shall be justified." Or is it an ongoing process of staying out of trouble? Perhaps a way or reconciling to God after sin? Something else? Is there an end purpose?

Your thoughts and insight please.

Hi Sandy, for there to be "doers"--there are those who choose not to "do". Therefore, just why did GOD give the "laws"? Judgments?
When one looks at Romans 1:29-31 and then considers that those things had been spoken against by GOD for mankind to engage in, it isn't hard for one to know the purpose for "doing"/ carrying out the Will of the Father GOD.

It wasn't just laws which prevented chaos, but laws which by performing would bind one to GOD.
One sees this in Gen.26:5 with Abraham. " Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. "

Ex.16:28-29, "And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day."

In Deut.30:15-20, this warning(prophecy) is given, "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."""

And in Jer.21:8-14, GOD declared HIS wrath with those who continually refused to "Do". """And unto this people thou shalt say, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death....For I have set my face against this city for evil, and not for good, saith the LORD: it shall be given into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall burn it with fire. ....O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings. "

In Romans1:17, Paul is Reminding those who had been at Pentecost(Acts 2:10, "...and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,")--- "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. "

Paul rightly wrote 1Cor.10:6, 11, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

It is still the "hearers of GOD and HIS Laws and "the Doers" of those same Laws in LOVE to/for GOD that are not only the ones who will be "justified", but ,also, saved by their Faith in the Salvational plan exclaimed in the Scriptures/Everlasting Gospel.
(Given to Abraham those many years ago).

 

[roger1440]

It is our responsibility to abide to the contract we "signed" with God. Many, including me, believe that the law abiding citizens will be eventually rewarded.
Problem with this though is that many follow the law and do good deeds to get a reward, either here or in an afterlife. Even though I do believe in an afterlife, I don't personally agree with following the law for those reasons. I believe we should be righteous in the eyes of God because it is our privilege and sacred obligation to do so.
In fact, one of the verses of the Pirkei Avot says the following:



Maybe not the best example but, you don't love your child because you want him to love you back. You love him unconditionally because it is your obligation and responsibility to do so.

When we truly love, the object of our affection becomes an extension of ourselves. The dividing line between ourselves and the object of our affection fades. It is no mere coincidence synonymous with the word “love” is the word “attachment”.

“Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.” (Deuteronomy 11:18)

 

[sincerly]

When we truly love, the object of our affection becomes an extension of ourselves. The dividing line between ourselves and the object of our affection fades. It is no mere coincidence synonymous with the word “love” is the word “attachment”.

“Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.” (Deuteronomy 11:18)

It is the Abiding one who remains firmly attached to GOD in obedience to those "laws to live by" which were given by GOD on Sinai and were stated to be for all persons who choose the have the Creator GOD as their GOD.
Num.15:15-16,29+, "One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you....Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them...."

Those same laws will constitute the "new covenant", but rather than be written on cold stone tablets they are written in the hearts and minds of those who LOVE and have faith in the Atoning Blood of the only means of Salvation from the death penalty----Jesus Christ.

 

[roger1440]

It is the Abiding one who remains firmly attached to GOD in obedience to those "laws to live by" which were given by GOD on Sinai and were stated to be for all persons who choose the have the Creator GOD as their GOD.
Num.15:15-16,29+, "One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you....Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them...."

Those same laws will constitute the "new covenant", but rather than be written on cold stone tablets they are written in the hearts and minds of those who LOVE and have faith in the Atoning Blood of the only means of Salvation from the death penalty----Jesus Christ.

I don’t know of any Jews that have access to those “cold stone tablets”, do you? To the best of my knowledge they read there holy scripture from a book or scroll just like Christians do.
According to Jeremiah 31, God’s new covenant will be taught by God himself. “No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, "Heed the LoRD"; for all of them, from the least of them to the greatest, shall heed Me-declares the LoRD.” (Jeremiah 31:34) It will not be taught by a rabbi, priest, or a neighbor. NOT EVEN A BOOK.

 

[dantech]

I don’t know of any Jews that have access to those “cold stone tablets”, do you? To the best of my knowledge they read there holy scripture from a book or scroll just like Christians do.
According to Jeremiah 31, God’s new covenant will be taught by God himself. “No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, "Heed the LoRD"; for all of them, from the least of them to the greatest, shall heed Me-declares the LoRD.” (Jeremiah 31:34) It will not be taught by a rabbi, priest, or a neighbor. NOT EVEN A BOOK.

Not even Jesus...

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by roger1440
I don’t know of any Jews that have access to those “cold stone tablets”, do you? To the best of my knowledge they read there holy scripture from a book or scroll just like Christians do.
According to Jeremiah 31, God’s new covenant will be taught by God himself. “No longer will they need to teach one another and say to one another, "Heed the LoRD"; for all of them, from the least of them to the greatest, shall heed Me-declares the LoRD.” (Jeremiah 31:34) It will not be taught by a rabbi, priest, or a neighbor. NOT EVEN A BOOK.

Not even Jesus...

That's Correct! All the redeemed will know and worship the Creator GOD---Just as Isaiah 66:22-23 states. "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. "

 

[dantech]

Originally Posted by roger1440
That's Correct! All the redeemed will know and worship the Creator GOD---Just as Isaiah 66:22-23 states. "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. "

So if even not Jesus, that how is the NT this covenant you are talking about. And how is Jesus the Messiah since we are in those days yet?

Quick and short answers please, so that we don't take this thread way to out of subject.

 

[roger1440]

So if even not Jesus, that how is the NT this covenant you are talking about. And how is Jesus the Messiah since we are in those days yet?

Quick and short answers please, so that we don't take this thread way to out of subject.

Yeah, what he said. This outta be good.

 

[roger1440]

Paul isnt really saying that the only way to be justified is by the mosiac law.

He speaks of people of the nations who do not know the mosaic law, yet who actually live by that law 'naturally'

Romans 2:14*For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15*They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts

The law of God is 'righteousness, justice, love'....many people live by these principles naturally. They dont have to have a written law telling them to pay their debts or be honest or give to the poor because they have a righteously inclined heart which motivates them to do such things.

God wants us to live by his righteousness. The written law doesnt justify anyone...it condemns because no one can fully carry it out perfectly. Paul states this in Vs 12 when he says "... all those who sinned under law will be judged by law"

The law condemns anyone who fails in any one aspect of it therefore no one is justifed by the Law.
19*Now we know that all the things the Law says it addresses to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become liable to God for punishment. 20Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin

All the world here includes even those who attempt to live by the mosiac law. The fact is that no imperfect person can fully comply with the law...thats why Paul says in Vs20 that no one can be justified by law

The only way to reconcile to God is through faith in Christ Jesus as Paul goes onto say in Vs 21 that Gods righteousness has been shown to us and those who adhere to his righteousness are justified:
But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; 22*yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. 23*For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24*and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus

But isn’t there laws in these cities and countries that ban murder, rape, stealing, etc.? If so, some of these people may be obeying the law of the land rather than the law written on their hearts. I do not know of any country that does not have any laws at all. The laws of Judaism just aren’t religious laws, they are also national laws.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
That's Correct! All the redeemed will know and worship the Creator GOD---Just as Isaiah 66:22-23 states. "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. "

So if even not Jesus, that how is the NT this covenant you are talking about. And how is Jesus the Messiah since we are in those days yet?

Quick and short answers please, so that we don't take this thread way to out of subject.

Hi Dan, Since "Doing the law" is the subject and the covenant is a legal document involving where all of the "Law" was/is to be kept, I believe we will continue in the topic. I'll try to keep it as short as possible----The process of Redemption/reclaiming/salvation and restoration of lost relationship isn't new as it is seen in GOD'S dealing with Adam and Eve. It is seen throughout the writings of Moses and the Prophets---as GOD labored with mankind(the descendants of Abraham{and all peoples of the world who choose to have GOD as their GOD} to repent and be faithful.) Remember, "GOD is not therespecterr of persons".

That first covenant as spoken of in Jer.31:31-34 was the "All that the lord GOD says ,we will do". The Decalogue was written on Stone tablets and placed in the "Ark of the covenant". There were more laws given to Moses which pertained to the method of "forgiving of Sins/disobedience"---those having to do with what GOD showed/gave to MOSES in that "pattern from heaven". They were aapartt of that covenant as well.

Jeremiah rightly wrote "that covenant they brake".(and at that time they were still Not "doing"---"loving GOD with all their hearts".)

I believe GOD and Daniel . GOD informed Jeremiah to Write, "The days come" when the "new covenant" would become effective.
Jacob was called Jacob for a reason. He "usurped"---took the birth-right that belonged to the "first-born". However, GOD knew that the other twin was not thechosenn one to receive it.
Jacob's character and attitude in dealing with a Gracious, Merciful, and Righteous GOD and also, with a deceitful/evil father-in-law allowed GOD to Re-name Jacob--"Israel"=prevailer with GOD and man.

IN Daniel 9, the time table which foretold the coming of the Messiah(long looked for)was given. That is history and has "come to pass", even though some still refuse to accept the fact---490 years from the Decree and even that temple "to be built" has long since been destroyed(A.D.70).

Just as the "first covenant" was ratified by a blood sacrifice and Moses sprinkled it on the covenant and the people, The second covenant("new") was ratified by the death(blood) of Jesus Christ.
As Jesus said and John wrote, "GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten SON that that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Therefore, the "redeemed" will not have to "be taught" because they have already confessed, Repented, and submitted to the will of the Father. (In total Belief, They have GOD's Laws written in their hearts and minds.----or else they would not have been accepted as "Redeemed".)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It's an action. That's why Paul speaks of Gentiles, who don't have the law, as still being able to "do" the law.

So you figure that Gentiles refuse to eat catfish, put paddles on the end of their spears or go to see the preist when they have leprosy of other surch obscure things in order to fulfill the Law?