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Doing the Law

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
What is the purpose of "doing" the Law. Is it as Paul said in Romans that the "doers of the law shall be justified." Or is it an ongoing process of staying out of trouble? Perhaps a way or reconciling to God after sin? Something else? Is there an end purpose?

Your thoughts and insight please.
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Living according to Torah is how we are supposed to do it:
"We will do and we will hear."
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Be cause it is what our Creator wants of us, and it is what we agreed to do.
Everything else is secondary to that.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
It is our responsibility to abide to the contract we "signed" with God. Many, including me, believe that the law abiding citizens will be eventually rewarded.
Problem with this though is that many follow the law and do good deeds to get a reward, either here or in an afterlife. Even though I do believe in an afterlife, I don't personally agree with following the law for those reasons. I believe we should be righteous in the eyes of God because it is our privilege and sacred obligation to do so.
In fact, one of the verses of the Pirkei Avot says the following:

"Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven be upon you."

Maybe not the best example but, you don't love your child because you want him to love you back. You love him unconditionally because it is your obligation and responsibility to do so.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
What is the reward?
Look up Olam Haba. It's a Jewish belief.

Righteousness is obtained by doing the Law?
I believe so, yes. Our law, oral and written, gives us laws on how to act with ourselves, with our friends and strangers, and with God. So yes, by abiding to a law that explains to me how to be righteous with myself, with others, and with God, then yes righteousness is obtained.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
I believe so, yes. Our law, oral and written, gives us laws on how to act with ourselves, with our friends and strangers, and with God. So yes, by abiding to a law that explains to me how to be righteous with myself, with others, and with God, then yes righteousness is obtained.
This may be an unfair question to ask an Orthodox Jew but why do you think Paul wrote in the book of Romans, "Therefore by thedeeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
This may be an unfair question to ask an Orthodox Jew but why do you think Paul wrote in the book of Romans, "Therefore by thedeeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."

If I start talking about what I think of Paul, this thread will go in the wrong direction extremely quickly. I think it's fair to say that I think very little of what Paul has written, and I see no credibility in it whatsoever.
Moving on...
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
If I start talking about what I think of Paul, this thread will go in the wrong direction extremely quickly. I think it's fair to say that I think very little of what Paul has written, and I see no credibility in it whatsoever.
Moving on...
Paul the Heretic?
 

Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Why does God want you to do the Law?

You'd have to ask Him. In making His covenant with the Jewish people, he set out the laws we were to live by. And so we do.

I don't believe in the afterlife, and don't know what form the World to Come will take. It's irrelevant to me. I believe that I am a better man following Torah than I am not following it, but again it is irrelevant. The purpose is for me to live way God has commanded to live.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is the purpose of "doing" the Law.
Paul is contrasting or denying the "privileged" position that the Jews believed themselves to have as those who possessed ("heard") god's law. What's really important, according to Paul, is doing what God commands. It's part of a larger theme about the law:
"For as many as sin without the law will also perish without the law. And as many as sin in the law will be judged through the law.
For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be justified
For whenever the Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature the things of the law, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts among themselves both accusing and excusing them"
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Paul is contrasting or denying the "privileged" position that the Jews believed themselves to have as those who possessed ("heard") god's law. What's really important, according to Paul, is doing what God commands. It's part of a larger theme about the law:
"For as many as sin without the law will also perish without the law. And as many as sin in the law will be judged through the law.
For it is not the hearers of the law who are just before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be justified
For whenever the Gentiles who do not have the law do by nature the things of the law, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts among themselves both accusing and excusing them"
So, do the Law because God commands it?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, do the Law because God commands it?
That's a given for Paul. His argument is not a moral one or even a theological one, but one of assumption: given that God's law is obligatory (maybe good?), it's not just a matter of possessing the law or knowing the law, but doing it whether one actually knows it or not. Paul wasn't a very sophisticated apologist.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Brick said:
What is the purpose of "doing" the Law. Is it as Paul said in Romans that the "doers of the law shall be justified." Or is it an ongoing process of staying out of trouble? Perhaps a way or reconciling to God after sin? Something else? Is there an end purpose?

Your thoughts and insight please.
Still working it out, but I think the reason to do it has to be either belief or stewardship. I suppose you could just start doing it for no reason and see what happens.

I wonder if doing it for the wrong reasons (if that is possible) would jeopardize the experience? I cannot remember where I read or heard it, but there is a story about a man who wanted to study Talmud, so that he could learn magic. He studied it for that purpose, and it somehow backfired on him. The story could reflect perhaps that there is also a wrong approach to the laws.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
What is the purpose of "doing" the Law. Is it as Paul said in Romans that the "doers of the law shall be justified." Or is it an ongoing process of staying out of trouble? Perhaps a way or reconciling to God after sin? Something else? Is there an end purpose?

Your thoughts and insight please.

Paul isnt really saying that the only way to be justified is by the mosiac law.

He speaks of people of the nations who do not know the mosaic law, yet who actually live by that law 'naturally'

Romans 2:14*For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15*They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts

The law of God is 'righteousness, justice, love'....many people live by these principles naturally. They dont have to have a written law telling them to pay their debts or be honest or give to the poor because they have a righteously inclined heart which motivates them to do such things.

God wants us to live by his righteousness. The written law doesnt justify anyone...it condemns because no one can fully carry it out perfectly. Paul states this in Vs 12 when he says "... all those who sinned under law will be judged by law"

The law condemns anyone who fails in any one aspect of it therefore no one is justifed by the Law.
19*Now we know that all the things the Law says it addresses to those under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become liable to God for punishment. 20Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin

All the world here includes even those who attempt to live by the mosiac law. The fact is that no imperfect person can fully comply with the law...thats why Paul says in Vs20 that no one can be justified by law

The only way to reconcile to God is through faith in Christ Jesus as Paul goes onto say in Vs 21 that Gods righteousness has been shown to us and those who adhere to his righteousness are justified:
But now apart from law God’s righteousness has been made manifest, as it is borne witness to by the Law and the Prophets; 22*yes, God’s righteousness through the faith in Jesus Christ, for all those having faith. For there is no distinction. 23*For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24*and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom [paid] by Christ Jesus
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
OP, do you mind explaining the purpose of this post? What are you trying to understand exactly, if it hasn't already been answered?
 
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