Does Israel have a "right" to Palestine?

[-Peacemaker-]

So what is the issue with Israel celebrating its Jewish heritage on its national flag?
There are numerous European nations who have crosses on their flags, and numerous Islamic nations with a crescent or even verses from the Qur'an on their flags.

None whatsoever. I'm just saying that such a country is probably going to do what it can to keep the power in the hands of fellow Jews, regardless of how the law is technically spelled out. Again, I don't see a problem with that. I think its their right as members of the human race to have a place where they can express their religion on their flag if they should so choose. It's their right to keep the power in their hands since that little strip of land is all they have. Also If I'm not mistaken, the nation defines itself as a "Jewish nation state" does it not?

 

[FearGod]

Do you think its possible for you to stay on topic and argue with the facts, instead of posting videos/links and random paragraphs from other sites?
You have previously claimed that Arabs cannot be Israeli citizens or enter high profile Israeli politics. Are you ready to admit that you were wrong?

i am on topic which is the citizenship of israeli arabs and their rights which you said that they got full rights.

i didn't deny what you have said,show me where i denied your reply or refuted it.

i am just showing that they don't have their full rights compared to what we can see in USA and other modernized countries,excuse me sir,i am only writing the facts which i find,you can prove me wrong,we are just debating.

 

[FearGod]

None whatsoever. I'm just saying that such a country is probably going to do what it can to keep the power in the hands of fellow Jews, regardless of how the law is technically spelled out. Again, I don't see a problem with that. I think its their right as members of the human race to have a place where they can express their religion on their flag if they should so choose. It's their right to keep the power in their hands since that little strip of land is all they have. Also If I'm not mistaken, the nation defines itself as a "Jewish nation state" does it not?

Also the western countries are christians in majority,but in case of israel during 1948 they were minority and by comparing the palestinian flag which got no religious meaning at all.

 

[jazzymom]

Also the western countries are christians in majority,but in case of israel during 1948 they were minority and by comparing the palestinian flag which got no religious meaning at all.

The partition would have created 2 states a Jewish and Palestinian state.

The Israelis built their country and chose their flag. The Palestinians turned down a state and did not build a country but went to war. If they had build a state they would have had a flag.

 

[Shermana]

The Palestinian people are not the Jordanian people, and their land is not the same as Jordan's land, no more than Michiganders are Canadians.

This in itself is arguable, considering that Jordan was historically an emirate of Palestinian province, it would be more like saying that Michiganers are different than Californians, or more appropriately, that Swabian germans are different than Munichers and Prussians. (And to be honest, I think Munichers and Prussians are far more different culturally, even linguistically). It's important to remember that Jordan was barely "independent" of the Mandate in the most loose of terms by 1922, and only in 1946 was it completely an independent country.

I see no real reason to separate Jordanians from Palestinians, and this in itself is a worthy debate topic.

They're about as different as their flags, one is ruled by the Hashemite Monarch, that's about it.

For one thing, they may want to consider not making their flags almost completely identical, that would be a good start if they wanted to push this idea that they're truly separate. In a way it's kind of like how the Egyptian, Syrian, and Iraqi flags were similar to represent the united Baathist ideal, but only in a way.

And even the Jordanian leaders in the past have flat out said that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.

So the crux of this contention is not as clear cut as you may think. They're not even half as different as Romanians and Moldovans.

Did Israel offer Israeli citizenship-- with all the rights and benefits-- to the Palestinians? I think not. Do you have a source for this? When was it? What were the strings? In contrast, Jordan did offer the Palestinians full citizen rights when their land was annexed by Jordan.

I will get a full report on who was offered Israeli citizenship and who didn't later.

 

[Shermana]

We're gonna have to wait for Shermana to elaborate more on the issue I guess. AFAIK all Arabs who remained in this area became Israeli citizens. Today I live in a country in which Arabic is a second official language, and where every road sign is written in Hebrew, Arabic and English.

That's pretty much what I meant by "those who didn't clear out their villages for the advancing arab armies". The Jews from what I understand, IMPLORED the Arabs to stay and not to leave (apart from the Lehis, Irguns and Sterns). So any Arab who did the right thing and didn't irrationally flee and offer their village as a base of operations was granted Israeli citizenship. Quite a fair deal I must say.

The Arabs who fled had no real reason to do so, it was their own leaders who demanded and requested that they leave, and this fact is commonly twisted by the propagandists to say that Israel "drove out 600,000 Arabs". Not true at all! Israel wanted the Arabs to stay put for the most part, and the ones that didn't were rewarded with citizenship, enjoying one of the highest qualities of life in the region. How can anyone really argue with that? By fleeing, the Arabs who fled showed that they for whatever reason did not view the Israelis as friendlies, and the ones who didn't obviously didn't have too much to fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

Glazer summarizes the position of Zionist historians, notably Schechtman, Kohn, Jon Kymche and Syrkin, as saying:

... the Arabs in Palestine were asked to stay and live as citizens in the Jewish state. Instead, they chose to leave, either because they were unwilling to live with the Jews, or because they expected an Arab military victory which would annihilate the Zionists. They thought they could leave temporarily and return at their leisure. Later, an additional claim was put forth, namely that the Palestinians were ordered to leave, with radio broadcasts instructing them to quit their homes.[2]
​

That's pretty much how it went down, that's not the distorted version as far as I know. So if anyone wants to call the above account "Zionist propaganda", please offer the counterview to disprove this which Israeli historians seem to unanimously agree to (maybe except the Finkelstein types).

And to those who insist that this is just the Israeli point of view, they even admit this but here's a kicker on Deir Yassin: It was a key point in the Battle of Jerusalem, the situation at Deir Yassin and the "terrorism" there is far different than it's commonly portrayed, it was mainly conducted by the Stern and Lehi (who Ben Gurion disbanded and even fired upon) and in no way represented official Jewish policy. They say it was only "due partly", but I think the fact that Israel offered citizenship to everyone who stayed should kind of show this view for what it's worth. If 600,000 Arabs left "largely" due to the actions of a small isolated rogue terrorist group, that speaks volumes. I do notice an undeniable trend in which these rogue groups are portrayed as Israeli mainstream policy. (As opposed to say, Al-Aqsa martyrs brigade who IS the official military of the PA).

Additionally, the secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to reenter and retake possession of their country. But it was also ... largely due to a policy of deliberate terrorism and eviction followed by the Jewish commanders in the areas they occupied, and reaching its peak of brutality in the massacre of Deir Yassin.
There were two good reasons why the Jews should follow such a policy. First, the problem of harbouring within the Jewish State a large and disaffected Arab population had always troubled them. They wanted an exclusively Jewish state, and the presence of such a population that could never be assimilated, that would always resent its inferior position under Jewish rule and stretch a hand across so many frontiers to its Arab cousins in the surrounding countries, would not only detract from the Jewishness of Israel, but also constitute a danger to its existence. Secondly, the Israelis wanted to open the doors of Palestine to unrestricted Jewish immigration. Obviously, the fewer Arabs there were in the country the more room there would be for Jewish immigrants. If the Arabs could be driven out of the land in the course of the fighting, the Jews would have their homes, their lands, whole villages and towns, without even having to purchase them.[33]
​

Basically, those who left were those who sided with the wishes of the Advancing Arab armies.

Needless to say, most Israeli Arabs according to most Polls overwhelmingly say they would prefer Israeli citizenship and administration over PA. Must be a bunch of brainwashed traitors, right?

 

[Godobeyer]

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

ذ

the abuse and racist of the regime of jews in Israel against the residences muslims and christians are very known , all the world know it .

around the history the jews and christians and muslims were (when palestine under the muslims ) were free to practice their faith with peace and no distinction or abuse .
it's the history evidence no a lie i post here .

 

[Godobeyer]

is it possible for a palastinian to be the prime miinister of Israel.
That what i said.

good point !!! USA citizens were courage to choose a black president !! how about the jews ? they would let a Muslims or Christian (for the residences muslims or christians "arabs"), i don't thing so

 

[Godobeyer]

True tolerance is when the government protects all religions right to practice. I see that in the west but not in the middle east, with the exception of Israel where other religions thrive.

destuction of mosques and the daily threat to invade the Alaqsa ? and destruction under it ? what you call it ?

some extrem jews get inter forcely to Alaqsa with the protection of israeli police !!!

the problem is the jewish extremism and abuse against other religions ,is protected and supporeted by israeli regime .

[youtube]4OA6rWPR9yY[/youtube]
‫

some others other extrem isrealis writes swears (insult) in the walls of Chruch ,
racist expresions against the citizens christains !!!

[youtube]sOxorJrEUfM[/youtube]
‫

 

[jazzymom]

destuction of mosques and the daily threat to invade the Alaqsa ? and destruction under it ? what you call it ?

some extrem jews get inter forcely to Alaqsa with the protection of israeli police !!!

the problem is the jewish extremism and abuse against other religions ,is protected and supporeted by israeli regime .

[youtube]4OA6rWPR9yY[/youtube]
‫

some others other extrem isrealis writes swears (insult) in the walls of Chruch ,
racist expresions against the citizens christains !!!

[youtube]sOxorJrEUfM[/youtube]
‫

What extremists do is not what the government does. The fact is in 1967 when the temple mount came under Israeli rule they did not take it over in fact it is now under the Wafq.

Are there Israeli extremists? Yes.

Are there Muslim extremists? Yes

Should everyone be judged by these extremists? No

I am not going to give any time to your videos because videos are sound bites and bits of speech taken out of context and used to spread untruths and to work on peoples emotions. Also your videos re either in arabic or just pictures.

I wish you would be as concerned about the attacks by Muslims as you are about the Jews who carry out price tag attacks. It does happen on both sides.

Jews have a right to go to the temple mount and they have a right to pray as long as they do not bother others.

 

[lunakilo]

This in itself is arguable, considering that Jordan was historically an emirate of Palestinian province, it would be more like saying that Michiganers are different than Californians, or more appropriately, that Swabian germans are different than Munichers and Prussians. (And to be honest, I think Munichers and Prussians are far more different culturally, even linguistically). It's important to remember that Jordan was barely "independent" of the Mandate in the most loose of terms by 1922, and only in 1946 was it completely an independent country.

I see no real reason to separate Jordanians from Palestinians, and this in itself is a worthy debate topic.

They're about as different as their flags, one is ruled by the Hashemite Monarch, that's about it.

For one thing, they may want to consider not making their flags almost completely identical, that would be a good start if they wanted to push this idea that they're truly separate. In a way it's kind of like how the Egyptian, Syrian, and Iraqi flags were similar to represent the united Baathist ideal, but only in a way.

And even the Jordanian leaders in the past have flat out said that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.

So the crux of this contention is not as clear cut as you may think. They're not even half as different as Romanians and Moldovans.

This seems to be a good time to remind you that you promised to answer my post #301 but haven't yet done so.

And just to save you the trouble of a search:

Danish flag:

Swedish flag:

Jutish flag

Does this mean that any of these places should be the same country?

 

[FearGod]

Or ...

Amnesty International: Israel violates human rights
​

i would like to thank you for being honest and i know there are many good jews in our world and you are one example.

i hope you did understand my point,i am against anyone who strive to kill innocents from both sides,i am with both to live in peace and not to use religion as an excuse to differentiate people for a purpose.

We shouldn't hate each other just because of religion,you are a jew,but i swear that i do highly respect you because you are friendly and honest and i think and even sure that other muslims in the forum do respect you as well.

i am a shame of you,and i repeat that i am not against the jews as jews,but the bad ones and i am also against the bad muslims if they do strive to kill innocents.

Here is a video created by both israeli & palestinian friends,that is the real image which i am looking for,peace for all,we shouldn't use religion as an excuse to kill innocents,peace is the best for all.
[youtube]NQgWswj_HQY[/youtube]
Israeli & Palestinian Teenagers Unite to Make a Music Video - 'Step for Peace' - YouTube


Honest jews are also supporting palestinian rights,and i am also with jews to live in peace with palestinians,in few words,keep religion for heaven and let earth for humans
[youtube]hA7PI9QWnqI[/youtube]
Rabbi Jews Against Israel - "Zionists Hijacked Judaism As Tool To Oppress Palestinians" - YouTube

 

[Cassiopia]

i would like to thank you for being honest and i know there are many good jews in our world and you are one example.

i hope you did understand my point,i am against anyone who strive to kill innocents from both sides,i am with both to live in peace and not to use religion as an excuse to differentiate people for a purpose.

We shouldn't hate each other just because of religion,you are a jew,but i swear that i do highly respect you because you are friendly and honest and i think and even sure that other muslims in the forum do respect you as well.

i am a shame of you,and i repeat that i am not against the jews as jews,but the bad ones and i am also against the bad muslims if they do strive to kill innocents.

Here is a video created by both israeli & palestinian friends,that is the real image which i am looking for,peace for all,we shouldn't use religion as an excuse to kill innocents,peace is the best for all.
[youtube]NQgWswj_HQY[/youtube]
Israeli & Palestinian Teenagers Unite to Make a Music Video - 'Step for Peace' - YouTube


Honest jews are also supporting palestinian rights,and i am also with jews to live in peace with palestinians,in few words,keep religion for heaven and let earth for humans
[youtube]hA7PI9QWnqI[/youtube]
Rabbi Jews Against Israel - "Zionists Hijacked Judaism As Tool To Oppress Palestinians" - YouTube

^^ This is a great post which goes beyond the prejudice and bigotry that often accompanies this subject.

Personally I don't think Israel has any right to the geographical area they claim in the Middle East based on what is written in the Bible (since I don't believe the Bible has any authority).
I do believe modern Israel has a right to exist based on the fact that several generations of people have lived there since relocating after the second world war. However, I think they should show respect and understanding to the Arabs who have been living there continuously for much longer, and part of that understanding would mean ensuring an economically viable Palestinian state can exist alongside Israel.

 

[jazzymom]

^^ This is a great post which goes beyond the prejudice and bigotry that often accompanies this subject.

Personally I don't think Israel has any right to the geographical area they claim in the Middle East based on what is written in the Bible (since I don't believe the Bible has any authority).
I do believe modern Israel has a right to exist based on the fact that several generations of people have lived there since relocating after the second world war. However, I think they should show respect and understanding to the Arabs who have been living there continuously for much longer, and part of that understanding would mean ensuring an economically viable Palestinian state can exist alongside Israel.

You do understand that Jews have been living in the middle east for 1000s of years and the Jews who came from Europe are not the only Jews to settle in Israel?

Also I would like to point out that many of those Jews who are Mizrahi and have lived in the middle east were kicked out of the Arab countries they made their homes.

Then there are the Jews who never left the territory of Palestine.

So I think along with the respect that you see the Israeli population ought to show Arabs, I also think that the respect of acknowledging that there are Jews who never left the middle east or Palestine. The Jewish presence predates the Islamic presence.

The other issue I see is that the Palestinians were offered a state which was turned down.

Both people were offered a state after ww2.

 

[Flankerl]

around the history the jews and christians and muslims were (when palestine under the muslims ) were free to practice their faith with peace and no distinction or abuse .
it's the history evidence no a lie i post here .

destuction of mosques and the daily threat to invade the Alaqsa ? and destruction under it ? what you call it ?

some extrem jews get inter forcely to Alaqsa with the protection of israeli police !!!

the problem is the jewish extremism and abuse against other religions ,is protected and supporeted by israeli regime .

[youtube]4OA6rWPR9yY[/youtube]
‫

some others other extrem isrealis writes swears (insult) in the walls of Chruch ,
racist expresions against the citizens christains !!!

[youtube]sOxorJrEUfM[/youtube]
‫

Always good to know that there are really arabs who believe the 24/7 claims by arab news that the evil zionists want to destroy the al aqsa mosque.

If the evil zionists wanted to destroy those buildings on top of the temple mount those buildings would have been gone a long time ago.



So ever heard about the work of the palestinian archeologists who destroy jewish items they find in the ground? Probably not because such a topic is obviously a lie.

A simple world for simple...

This seems to be a good time to remind you that you promised to answer my post #301 but haven't yet done so.

And just to save you the trouble of a search:

Danish flag:

Swedish flag:

Jutish flag

Does this mean that any of these places should be the same country?

 

[Flankerl]

Honest jews are also supporting palestinian rights,and i am also with jews to live in peace with palestinians,in few words,keep religion for heaven and let earth for humans
[youtube]hA7PI9QWnqI[/youtube]
Rabbi Jews Against Israel - "Zionists Hijacked Judaism As Tool To Oppress Palestinians" - YouTube

Obvious Neturei Karta is obvious.

Iam sorry i dont like jews who take comfort in other jews getting murdered by terrorists.

 

[Cassiopia]

You do understand that Jews have been living in the middle east for 1000s of years and the Jews who came from Europe are not the only Jews to settle in Israel?

Yes I do know that.

Also I would like to point out that many of those Jews who are Mizrahi and have lived in the middle east were kicked out of the Arab countries they made their homes.

Then there are the Jews who never left the territory of Palestine.

I know that too. However, in reality the Jews who lived in the Southern Levant for the most part of the last two thousand years were always in a minority.

So I think along with the respect that you see the Israeli population ought to show Arabs, I also think that the respect of acknowledging that there are Jews who never left the middle east or Palestine.

Okay

The Jewish presence predates the Islamic presence.

Obviously, since Judaism predates Islam as a religion.

The other issue I see is that the Palestinians were offered a state which was turned down.

Both people were offered a state after ww2.

But the Arabs considered that the state they were offered was not fair and not viable. Actually the Jews felt the same because they never accepted the boundaries of the state originally offered to them either.

 

[Sunstone]

The Jewish presence predates the Islamic presence.

I've often wondered why that means anything to people? Care to explain?

 

[jazzymom]

I've often wondered why that means anything to people? Care to explain?

I was responding to this:

Cassiopia
>>several generations of people have lived there since relocating after the second world war. However, I think they should show respect and understanding to the Arabs who have been living there continuously for much longer, and part of that understanding would mean ensuring an economically viable Palestinian state can exist alongside Israel.<<<

I felt the need to say this because I was responding to a post that gave the implication that Jews from Europe came to settle the land of Israel and that only European Jews settled the land.

I think it is important that when the implication that only European Jews the Azhkanazi came to settle Israel there are other groups of Jews the Sephardic and the Mizrahi and the Mizrahi are the Jews who never left the middle east.

As the Palestinians want to deny Jews are also long term residents of the middle east, it is important to say that this is not the truth.

I submit that Jews and Palestinians have lived in the middle east for 1000s of years and both have a right to be there.

I look to the day they can live side by side in peace but I would like to see honesty.

Both groups have a continuous presence but the Jewish presence predates the Islamic presence.

 

[Cassiopia]

I was responding to this:

Cassiopia
>>several generations of people have lived there since relocating after the second world war. However, I think they should show respect and understanding to the Arabs who have been living there continuously for much longer, and part of that understanding would mean ensuring an economically viable Palestinian state can exist alongside Israel.<<<

I felt the need to say this because I was responding to a post that gave the implication that Jews from Europe came to settle the land of Israel and that only European Jews settled the land.

I think it is important that when the implication that only European Jews the Azhkanazi came to settle Israel there are other groups of Jews the Sephardic and the Mizrahi and the Mizrahi are the Jews who never left the middle east.

As the Palestinians want to deny Jews are also long term residents of the middle east, it is important to say that this is not the truth.

I submit that Jews and Palestinians have lived in the middle east for 1000s of years and both have a right to be there.

I look to the day they can live side by side in peace but I would like to see honesty.

Both groups have a continuous presence but the Jewish presence predates the Islamic presence.

Did you see the response I made?