1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Does God welcome everyone into heaven?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Trailblazer, Apr 11, 2020.

  1. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,276
    Ratings:
    +1,566
    Religion:
    My Own
    I live in New Jersey. I know what Hell is since I live here.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +301
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Bible makes distinction between the spirit, soul, and body. So, I hold that there is a difference. (1 Thess. 5:23) (Heb. 4:12)

    As a Christian, death alone is not resurrection. Resurrection has to do with the body. It is uniting the body back with the spirit/soul.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    26,794
    Ratings:
    +7,804
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I have to run because I have to work tomorrow. I will leave you with this quote to mull over and maybe we can pick this conversation up tomorrow. :)

    421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
     
  4. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,276
    Ratings:
    +1,566
    Religion:
    My Own
    I believe in the golden rule of karma. If you cause suffering in others you will experience suffering in your life in equal proportion. And the same is true with being selfless in the service of others. When you help other people achieve joy and happiness you will experience joy and happiness in your own life in equal proportion. Just think how cool our World would be if everyone truly believed in the golden rule of karma where people were competing with each other to experience the most amount of joy and happiness in their lives!
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    26,794
    Ratings:
    +7,804
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I believe that the physical body once dead remains dead and the soul/spirit (which are the same entity) leaves the body and goes to a spiritual realm of existence.

    See what I just posted above.
    #189 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago
     
  6. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +301
    Religion:
    Christian
    You said the Bible says nothing of 'spiritual death'. I have just showed you that it does and you ignore it and simply say Christians just don't understand.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    26,794
    Ratings:
    +7,804
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I do not see any contradiction between the two passages.
    Perhaps it is how you are interpreting the passages.
     
  8. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,276
    Ratings:
    +1,566
    Religion:
    My Own
    I don't assume they do. I never said that. I believe when people die there's a light at the end of a tunnel. Everyone goes into the light. And once you go into the light, you experience God's infinite beauty which is pure bliss. After we experience God our experience of self just stops. I believe there is no afterlife. Our soul just returns back to God from whence it originated. There is no judgment. This is nothing to be afraid of.

    My way of believing is just as valid as yours. You have no proof or way of knowing "it matters to God" other than your choice to believe in what other people are telling you what to believe. I just choose differently than you on this opinion.

    Wow! You really have this mapped out.

    You certainly know a lot about how God thinks.

    People judge other people all the time. I guarantee you if the decision about my soul getting through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal Heavenly bliss were up to you then you would say "no". Where as I would say "yes" to you. I think this is a huge difference between us!

    This is exactly what love means. For you love means hate.

    Not getting being allowed through the gates of Heaven and being forced to experience Eternal damnation is worse than being raped! I would not wish this on anyone! I think just wishing it or thinking it will happen to someone else will probably cause you to suffer here and now.

    But you know. You know exactly what God's think where as I do not. So we are equal which is what I've been saying the whole time.

    I am not saying they "deserve to go to Heaven." Why is everything I am saying just flying over your head. What I am saying is an omnipotent God would have no reason to judge anyone. An omnipotent God has no need or desire to judge anyone negatively. It's not the case if not enough people do not make it through the gates of Heaven God is going to die. God will be just fine no matter how pious of a life you think you are living. God has no reason to keep anyone out of Heaven. Your desire and need for justice in the afterlife is just your immature need and desire for revenge against people you believed who have sinned against you or others.

    What is sin and not sin is purely subjective and in the realm of humanity. How many times have you felt or heard someone say someone else deserved to suffer for some action. This is pure delusional fantasy to think our omnipotent God would also share in your same immature emotions of hate.

    Bad things happen all the time. No one would make it to Heaven. No one is perfect like God. Everyone can be judged from something.

    Neither do you.

    The executioner and soldier are murderers depending on which side you are one. Are you saying the executioner and soldier doing their jobs are mentally ill?

    We all agree rape is wrong but it has nothing to do with God. I see no reason to think why an omnipotent God would care about anything especially carrying out what you think is justice in the afterlife. There's no reason for God to do anything. God has everything God needs. God has no limitations like the desire to have justice like you are imagining he does.

    Raping someone is against the law. We have secular laws for a reason. If you want justice it will only comes in a secular court of law. If you want justice I would not assume it's going to come in the afterlife because this is what you want to hear from your bible.. If men crap in their own bed it's up to men to clean it up. Man is the measure of all things. We are responsible for the World we live in. If preventing women getting raped were a priority we would have better methods of prevention and education to prevent it from happening in the first place. I remember taking Human Sexuality class in college and the professor being adamant that "no means no" and "no never means yes." But I never heard this message anyone other than in the class I took over 30 years ago. This is what I have taught my son when he is with a woman.

    You claim God will enforce justice. I think God will do nothing. I think just as in life, God will drop the ball on stopping unnecessary evil in favor of His long-term plan.

    You do not know what God is thinking. And whatever source you think is telling you what God is thinking doesn't know what God is thinking either. Nobody knows what God is thinking.

    But my argument God has no needs or desires to be the way you want him to be is based on what being Omnipotent means.

    No, I am not saying they get a free pass. If you cause someone else to suffer you will experience suffering in your own life in equal proportion.

    I am saying God has no reason to be the way you want him to be. An omnipotent God is complete without any needs or desires. You are projecting your human attributes on God as if God is not omnipotent.

    I am not naive about how much you hate people and the way they behave. Nobody gets away "scot-free". Yes, people choose to be evil for only selfish reasons. Why would you think there are any other kind of reasons. But that has nothing to do with God.

    We have secular laws and courts of justice precisely because we do not trust to leave it to God.

    And even if someone is not brought to justice it doesn't matter. When you cause other people to suffer it will come back to bite you. What goes around comes around. If you don't believe me do the following experiment. Go into the nearest Walmart and just start punching people in the face. Keep doing it until you can no longer do it. See if you get away "scot-free".

    This is not a discussion about what is evil and what is not evil. Stories on Discovery and Forensic Files does not support your opinion about God. Butterflies and flowers exist. Puppy dogs. What does it mean?
     
    #188 dfnj, Apr 14, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
  9. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    2,836
    Ratings:
    +1,646
    Will try to explain it by moving on.

    But then that should answer your original question of whether or not everyone gets into heaven. If God does not demand anything from us, then everyone ought to get there.

    Furthermore if we are created in his image, then the murderer, the rapist and child molestor is equally made in his image. If that was not in his image, then were does it come from? How is it even possible for a person to murder in the first place?

    If God does not want that, clearly making it possible in the first place, can't be part of his image. Sort of the same way, that God apparently didn't want humans to have wings and fly around.

    Sure he could, even if we run with the idea that God himself can't come here, have no clue why that limitation is there, since he can do anything.

    But even if the messengers were the only way. He could fill the Earth with intelligent messengers which spoke sense and which could convince or enlight the rest of us. For some reason there is only one messenger at the time, and with what 2000 years apart? Or when is the next messenger suppose to replace Baha'u'llah?

    It makes no sense, that a God have all these limitations and rules to follow. Assuming he created the whole damn Universe.

    From a logical point of view, the reason there can't be any other messengers, is the because it would be confusing, because they are humans and not send from God and therefore their ideas varies and have different ideas etc. Which would conflict with each other, exactly what you would expect from humans.

    If they were send by God, he could send 10000 here and have them all receive the same information. He could make them answer questions about how the Universe works, have them perform miracles, like going around and healing the corona sick simply by putting their hand on them.

    It is just not consistent in regards to what God is suppose to be able to do. And if he is not interested in interacting with us, besides one person every X number of thousand years, which doesn't manage to really convince people, then what is the point of God anyway? In 130 years or so, every single person living on this planet now have died, and a new generation have taken over and is probably not going to meet a messenger either, or those after them or those after them etc. And final a person comes claiming to be the new messenger and if he is lucky, he is not killed straight away by those that don't agree with him, or simply ignored and therefore can't convince anyone. And then the the whole thing starts over.

    If that is God's way of interacting with humans, he is simply not needed. Im sorry to say it. Its the exact same issue I have with all other religions. The need for God and the need for clinging to someone that clearly doesn't care, is not needed by humans, we have each other and have already proven that we can do amazing things when we work together. If God want to be a part of that, fine... then he can come and join and help us. But simply throwing unclear messages and ideas in our faces is not needed.

    But you do believe in Jesus as a messenger and that he was crucified? So if you were God and you saw that his messenger, his greatest hope for helping humanity and give us guidance, is being killed. And for the most part, none really listened to him. God can thank Constantine the great for it getting anywhere. And even that failed, if we are to go with the Bahai faith, because he endorsed Christianity, so God send a messenger, which result in him causing a wrong religion to emerge, which then afterwards leads to yet another wrong one in form of Islam, which then leads to a load of other minor ones later on, like JWs, mormons etc. And finally the real one comes along, not from Jesus really, but from a new messenger in form of Baha'u'llah. Which strangely enough take parts from both Christianity and Islam, which seems very weird, taking into account, that its obvious that Bahais clearly think that they are wrong about so many things.

    So again, its about consistency. Is that really what an all powerful God is capable of? Is that really the strategy such being would use... to me it makes so little sense, that is hard for me to express it. :)

    If God need a new approach or a few ideas, I truly wouldn't mind him contacting me and ill be happy to help him. Because its clearly not working well. :)

    Why would God have hope?

    Think about it, why do a person need hope in the first place? The only reason we have hope in things, is because we are uncertain about how something will play out. Lets say that a person got Corona virus. But knew that there was a cure, so just go to the local health store and buy a package of anti corona pills. There is no need for hope, because the pills removes that and changes hope to certainty. So God having hope, simply means that he have no clue what is going on. He started something and now he have lost control and just hope that it will turn out good. Not only, does that not really suit a God, but also it makes him flawed, not all powerful and incompetent in regards to what you would expect from him.

    If this is covered by free will, it only means that God is playing a very dangerous game with human lives, Because we know, and he knows that humans kill each other, sometimes over stupid things, sometimes out of desperation, greed, you name it. Yet this is considered more good, than us not having free will, despite us not being able to tell the difference anyway. You see the issue here?

    Him throwing an extremely ineffective pill, in the form of a messenger to us once every few thousand years, is indescribable in regards to how poor a solution that is.

    And again as I said in the other posts, If I have to go with the idea that God exists, he simply can't be incompetent. It just wont work with an all powerful God. There need to be consistency in what we observe and experience, and what a God can and chooses to do. Which is why I said that I would throw out all religious texts we know of.

    Because you can't claim that God is all good, when we don't see that in the world.
     
    #189 Nimos, Apr 14, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
  10. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +428
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Where are the words "spiritual death" found in the Bible?
     
  11. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +428
    Religion:
    Scripture
    Let's have a look at the verses you claim speak of "spiritual death".

    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Paul is speaking there about the man who has been made alive (quickened) though Christ. As opposed to the man who was not. The man who was not is said to be dead in trespasses and sins. And unless that man is made alive through Christ he remains a child of wrath. And remains under the death penalty which Adam has brought to all man.

    Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Paul is saying the same thing there. Unless a man is forgiven his sins he remains a dead man. he will die the death of Adam and return to dust.

    Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

    Jesus calls them dead in the same way Paul does. They have not been made alive by having their sins forgiven. They are walking under the death sentence laid down to Adam.

    Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    Again, it's the same idea. The son was living in trespasses and sin and anyone who does such is dead under the death sentence of Adam.


    The verses you posted say NOTHING about "spiritual death". Everyone born into this world is under a death sentence brought about by Adam's sin.
    Even today, when a man is given the death penalty he is referred to as dead. A nd when he walks to the death chamber he is called a "dead man walking"
     
    #191 LightofTruth, Apr 14, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
  12. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +428
    Religion:
    Scripture
    So when we say a man is dead it means he is alive. I don't think so. I think dead means to be not alive and alive means to not be dead.
    If we say the body has died does that also mean that the body is still alive?
     
  13. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +301
    Religion:
    Christian
    Go back and reread the verses I gave you. You don't need the exact words to describe spiritual death. I can't find my name written in the Bible that says I am saved. But I know that I am by what the Bible says.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,887
    Ratings:
    +342
    Religion:
    jw עדי יהווה
    perhaps you are dealing with a misnomer . there are the heavens where the birds fly ,a area called mid-heaven,and then there is the heavens where the planets and star's are seen . and there is the place called heaven , the place where it is that God is known to be . Elijah could only have traveled into the heaven where the birds fly .it was said there was a wind storm. wind storms happen in mid-heaven.

    Enoch was taken not to heaven ,his life was ended . some would like to think way to early because other's were living fare longer .
    he was not taken to heaven, in view of Jesus’ clear statement at John 3:13. It appears that, as in the case of Moses’ body, Jehovah God disposed of Enoch’s body, for “he was nowhere to be found.”
     
  15. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +301
    Religion:
    Christian
    Concerning (Eph. 2:1-5) look who is changing the Scripture. You. It doesn't say the man was under the death penalty. It says he was dead and is now alive. You can't be 'made alive' if you were already alive.

    Concerning (Col. 2:13), yes the same thing is being said as in (Eph. 2:1-5). Just not what you say. The man is physically alive but spiritually dead.

    Concerning (Matt. 8:22), yes Jesus calls them dead the same way Paul does. Spiritually dead. 'Let the dead bury the dead.' Physically alive but spiritually dead.

    Concerning (Luke 15:24) Same as above.

    Nothing in the verses given say anything about everyone being under a death sentence. It says they are dead. You can twist the Scripture however you like. But it is plain that that is what you are doing.

    Man is body, soul, and spirit. Physical death is separation of the body from the spirit/soul. Spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  16. Hellbound Serpiente

    Hellbound Serpiente Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2020
    Messages:
    455
    Ratings:
    +603
    Religion:
    None
    Not sure. Due to my innate human weaknesses, frailties, shortsightedness, I don't know how God treat believers and nonbelievers on the Day of Judgment.

    If I have to guess, no. God would most likely make everyone reap what they have sown in their life, whether it's good and evil. They will be punished or reward based on their karma. If they have good karma, they'll be rewarded. But if their karma is negative and evil, they'll pay the just price and reap whatever damage they have sown. After they face the consequences of their evil, I think they can then enter paradise.

    There is no justice in treating the wrongdoers same as the righteous ones. It will be injustice in it's prime to those who earned the right to be rewarded through a lifetime of selflessness, loyalty, faithfulness, sacrifice, patience, forbearance, righteousness, charitableness etc. to have those who are undeserving of it take what is rightfully their's, and it will also be injustice in it's prime if those who are oppressed by the wrongdoers don't receive justice and let the evil ones get away with their crimes without being penalized for it.

    Although I am no longer a Muslim, Qur'an says something like this:

    "Shall We then treat the People of Faith like the People of Sin? What is [the matter] with you? How do you judge?" --- The Holy Qur'an 68:35-26
     
    #196 Hellbound Serpiente, Apr 14, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    26,794
    Ratings:
    +7,804
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Baha'u'llah says something along those same lines:

    “Let no one imagine that by Our assertion that all created things are the signs of the revelation of God is meant that—God forbid—all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are equal in the sight of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 187

    To my knowledge, Baha'u'llah does not say anything about a 'Judgment Day' as it pertains to the afterlife.

    The Day of Judgment is explained here.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2012
    Messages:
    10,468
    Ratings:
    +839
    Religion:
    Messianic Jewish Christianity
    Thanks for posting, but salvation is not from genuflecting, but, as the Bible explains, from simple trust in Jesus Christ!
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    26,794
    Ratings:
    +7,804
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It means that the body has died but the man himself continues to live.

    "But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man." Heaven and Hell, p. 351

    John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
     
  20. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2019
    Messages:
    1,955
    Ratings:
    +428
    Religion:
    Scripture
    I'm not changing anything. What I'm telling you is the Bible NOWHERE speaks of anyone as being "spiritually dead". But it does speak of being dead and death. And the death it speaks of is the death that Adam's sin has caused for everyone like him. "In Adam all die" it says.
    God told Adam that on the day he ate of the tree he would die. And when Adam ate of the tree God said to him, "dust you are and to dust you shall return". Adam was given the death sentence that very day. So, from that day on Adam was a dead man. The only way Adam could have been given eternal life is if he had then eaten of the tree of life. But God did not allow Adam to eat of that tree after he sinned. In fact, God banished Adam from the garden and set cherubs and flaming sword to guard the tree of life.
    So, all men are dead in Adam. And the only way a man can attain eternal life is through Christ.
     
Loading...