Does God welcome everyone into heaven?

[Nimos]

He did not have time for social work; that was destined to fall into the hands of His followers, the Baha’is, much later. Had the kings and rulers listened to Him they would have take care of their people as Baha’u’llah clearly enjoined them to treat all their people equitably, but since the kings and rulers did not listen, this would have to happen at a future time, after Baha’u’llah died. The whole point of his mission was to set an example and garner a few followers and write scriptures that contained a set of blueprint instructions so His followers could carry out his plans in the future, and that is exactly what Baha’is are doing now, all over the world.

This again is no different than that of Christianity, to spread the word and show the values of what it means to be a good Christian. This is one of the reasons why JW go door to door, travel around the world trying to help people etc. This is not something new, but it is regardless of who does it, whether its JW or bahai, christians or muslims, an extremely incompetent way for a God to interact with humans. Because JW believe they are correct, so they spread one idea, bahai suggest another, christians a third and obviously muslims a fourth. They can't all be right, the way this system is set up, simply doesn't work as these different ideas conflict with each other. Either Jesus were the son of God or he weren't. Either Jesus were God in the form of the trinity or he weren't. There is no middle ground.

God clearly must know which is true, yet have done nothing for the last thousands of years settling this issue, what is correct? This is just one conflict amongst many, think about how muslims are fighting and killing each other, because they can't figure out a "family" dispute. Which basically means, that if Islam is right, then God haven't cared to guide the muslims into how it should be, or that if Islam is wrong, you have muslims fighting and killing each other for no bloody reason, and still God have not stepped in and told them, "Look Christianity is right, not Islam, stop killing each other, God dammit!!" so what does that tell about God and how much he cares about the arabic world. And this is not unique for Islam, you can do that for all the religions on varies topics. Because the fact is, that these simply can't all be true.

We as humans can see this, its not difficult, so clearly God must know as well. Yet he still follows along with this idea of messengers, as if that is a good solution.

The Writings of Baha’u’llah that are essential for everyone to read have been translated into over 800 languages so far and they are working on translations into additional languages. Many of His Writings have not even been translated from Persian and Arabic into English yet, that is a work in progress and will be completed as soon as they have the proper funding to pay the panels of translators that will be needed.

Why the whole process of translation, its plain and simply stupid. God can create anything, the universe etc. Why doesn't he supply a copy of the writings in perfectly translated versions and hand them out to everyone, so everyone can get them at the same time? It makes so little sense, why everything in these religious "games", whether its bahai, Christianity, Islam whatever, that everything seem to be done in the absolutely most incompetent way godly or humanly possible. To me that is a mystery.

As far as miracles are concerned, that is just what you would like to see because you are an atheist, but a miracle is only proof to the ones who witness it, and how many people in the world could witness the miracles of one man in a 40 year period of time.

Why all the limitations, I truly think that is one of the things that puzzles atheists the most, whenever we talk with religious people, its all these unwritten restrictions. If a person come to me and say "Look this God is amazing, he is all powerful, omniscience and all loving" then gloves are off, plain and simple. If God is not capable of doing, what we would consider minor things, compared to what he is said to have done and the attributes given to him, then that can only mean one of three things in my eyes.

1. A person have no clue what they are talking about, when using words like those.
2 The person is lying about the capabilities of God.
3. God does have these abilities, but simply doesn't care at all and at least saying that he is all loving is clearly wrong.

In my opinion, religious people ought to do one of two things. 1. Stop saying that God is these things. or 2. Stop putting limitations on God, one or the other.

Why would you think that the miracles would need to come from the messenger? God is the one that has all the power, he can perform global miracles so amazing, that no one would be able to deny it. He could speak to each of us, making sure that there is no doubt that we are talking about God. But... nope, this can't happen because..... limitation, why? ... because reason. But don't worry God is all power.. ... No, he is not, now stop saying that!!

But I already explained that Baha’u’llah had the ability to appear in all His naked glory so everyone would believe in Him and in God and do everything He said to do, but Baha’u’llah did not do that because God wants belief to be a free will choice and he wants people to obey because they want to, not because they think they have to.

It seems to me, like the whole Bahai faith is hooked up on the free will argument. Nothing apparently can be done, because of this damn free will thing. That makes no difference anyway in the end.

So Baha’u’llah did not prove it to you, but rather He provided evidence so you could prove it to yourself because God wants you to do the leg work.

Honestly, I had no idea who he was or that Bahai even existed, before I spoke with you I can tell you for a fact, that my brother, mom or dad, will have absolutely no clue about it, if I asked them. And honestly, I would be surprised if they don't go into the grave without ever knowing. Are they bad people? definitely not, but why weren't they presented with this, if God intended everyone to know? You could argue that I could tell them, but I wouldn't share any meant teachings and honestly they would not care about it either. So if all this is true, why doesn't God care about them knowing? Saying that they have to do the hard work, is just not going to cut it. That idea only works for those that have already bought into the idea. No different, than a muslim, christian or hindu, couldn't say the same thing to you, why haven't you read all their material either? Yet you have decided that Bahai is correct, so if you are wrong, you are in an equally bad position as anyone else that got it wrong.

Here is a short story from when I discussed with a JW, as you might know, they believe that the end times is "near" or at least that their purpose is to prepare for it. Which is one of reasons they need to spread the word of God, to save people before the end. So we had discussed back and forth for about 2 years, at which she finally sort of gave up, it was a very friendly talk, so we sort of got to know each other a bit. So I presented her with a question, that now that she had eventually given up trying to save me and therefore I would now not be saved as a result of that. How it would work out in this new Earth, because there is not suppose to be any suffering there. So obviously you have a conflict here in how it is suppose to work. Because either she will not remember anything bad from this world, because that could cause suffering, which means either her memory is wiped, which means that nothing she would do in this life matters, or she would live in this new Earth with a memory so confused and with so many gaps, that it would be impossible to not categorize as suffering. This is just an example of how these conflicts and rules end up conflicting in other religions as well, but the idea is the same, that the way these things are suppose to work, having members do the work of God, so to speak, is not an effective or even fair way to do it.

Nobody ever walked on water or brought back the dead. These were just Bible stories used to try to convince people reading them to believe in Jesus.

Well if Jesus were the son of God, is that then unbelievable? God did do much more amazing things, so walking on water and raising the dead, doesn't seem all that impressive. It completely depends what you believe. Again as mentioned above, these religious views does not play well together.

I do not believe that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger just because another Messenger won’t be coming for at least 843 years; I believe in Him because of the evidence that you do not see as evidence.

Lets assume that Baha'u'llah is what he say. How come God didn't give him such good evidence, that he would be able to convince anyone. Doesn't that strike you as being slightly odd?

Simple, because Jesus knew there would be many false prophets, and there were many false prophets and they continue to come.

So from a Christian point of view, Baha'u'llah could be a false prophet, would you agree with that? (From a Christian point of view)

Whereas that is true for all the religions of the past, it is not true for the Baha’i Faith. We do not claim to be the final authority or that only true religion; we only claim to be the most recent and current religion.

You might say that and as noble as it might sound. You can't avoid getting into conflicts with other religions. Just as you said above, Jesus never walked on water or raised the dead. That is in direct conflict with what a lot of Christians believe, so you might not say it directly or even believe that you are not claiming to be the only true religion, but it happens automatically whether you like it or not, its not a choice you have, the moment you claim that something about the other religions are not true.

God does not want to do these things for humans, not because God does not care, but because He does care, and it is better for humans to do what is necessary for themselves.

This only make sense for a person living a decent live to say, for the person that starve and loosing family members due to war, disease etc. not so much.

 

[CG Didymus]

It seems to me, like the whole Bahai faith is hooked up on the free will argument. Nothing apparently can be done, because of this damn free will thing. That makes no difference anyway in the end.

The whole post is awesome. On this point, "free will". The God in the Jewish Bible does intervene all the time. You do evil, God is going to punish you or maybe kill you. Even in Christianity two people lied about how much they sold their property for, and they only gave part of the money to the Apostles. This money was then going to be shared by all the Christians. God struck them dead. But all Christians had the "free" choice of doing God's will or paying the price. Unbelievers had the "free" choice of not believing and doing as they pleased but were told they will burn in hell for it. They were told that the "wages" of sin is death. Even secular society doesn't let everyone do as they please. We make rules. Some behaviors are punishable by prison or even death.

But now God says that he's not going to twist your arm and make you believe, but he has his followers go tell people that God isn't going to force them but... if they don't change their ways trials and tribulations are coming. And things will get so bad people will, essentially, be forced to listen and follow God's rules. But there is no compulsion?

This is not something new, but it is regardless of who does it, whether its JW or bahai, christians or muslims, an extremely incompetent way for a God to interact with humans. Because JW believe they are correct, so they spread one idea, bahai suggest another, christians a third and obviously muslims a fourth. They can't all be right, the way this system is setup, simply doesn't work as these different ideas conflict with each other.

The Baha'is have quotes that say how wonderful the Bible is, and they also have quotes that say that not everything is "authentic". They have quotes that deny major doctrines of Christians and the other religions. So... all the other religions are wrong is how I'd read that.

So God gave the ancient religions a message that got written down wrong by people? That, even if correct, needed to be interpreted by people. Who then got it wrong. That over time, even if the message was written down correctly by people and was interpreted correctly, people added teachings into it, "traditions of men," and messed it up. But supposedly God did write down part of the Bible message. He etched it in stone. Then, the tablets got lost or stolen.

So the Bible and the NT depended on people writing down an accurate account of what happened and what God did and might have said. The early Christians got all the books that told the Christian story and voted on which ones they felt were authentic, a few barely made it in. Did God and the Holy Spirit really guide them? And then to continue to guide them on how to interpret them? And then guide them on how to follow it? It doesn't seem like it. It's so screwed up that I think there is a good chance that the original writings were influenced more by the writers than by God. The choice of which books got into the NT I don't think was God leading it but the more influential religious leaders biases. Then the interpretations? Who knows?

I'd agree with the Baha'is most or even all of those interpretations are wrong. But whose fault is that? God could have had Jesus write things down. It's like God wanted to let people mess things up. And now God finally sends a messenger that writes stuff down. And by the things he writes in his books, it's still hard to believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

That sounds a lot like me I hate having it to warm, so I have my windows open almost constantly with no heat on all year round. My friends often refer to me living in an igloo, because they think its way to cold. But personally I just can't stand it when its warm, I get very lazy and uncomfortable.

I do not like a hot house. I open the window, my husband closes them. He was turning on the heat so I had to put a note on the thermostat to remind him not to turn it on in the morning. It is set to 57F at night and goes to 60F in the morning unless someone turns it up. It has been unseasonably cold here so it has been about 63F in the house during the daytime which is tolerable except for my hands.

No, its about making choices.

That you can construct these in such way that what might seem like a choice, ain't really one. This is what the religious choice in regards to heaven and hell is.

Lets try to analyze this whole setup.
So you present an idea (in this case heaven and hell) for people, in such way that they have to make a choice based on free will. Now It is very important that free will is there, because that symbolize control, independence and so on. Whereas the lack of it would suggest slavery and suppression, which we in general don't like, because we don't like to be forced to anything. Therefore the choice a person has to make needs to be presented in such way that it seems like they decided it for themselves.

Next is the actual choice we have to make, which is where this whole setup or illusion of free will breaks apart. Because you can choose between either hell or heaven, those are the two options you have.

Knowing that we as humans, prefer to not suffer and in some cases fear death. You can use this to manipulate the choices. Which is exactly what is done in this setup.

Option 1 - Hell
Hell suggest that you will suffer for an eternity, with no one caring for you. Your afterlife will be more miserable than you can imagine.

Option 2 - Heaven
Heaven is presented as this is where you will receive and be eternally happy, God will care for you and everything will be wonderful.

Making the choice
So after that, you now know all the rules and it is up to you to "freely" make whatever choice you want, based on what you think is best. That was the idea with the burning building example in the last post. You are presented by a choice as if it is free, but the scenario for which you have to make this choice is stacked against one side, making it outright stupid to choose one compared to the other.

In this case hell, obviously no one with a sane mind would ever choose hell, which only leaves one option to choose from using ones free will. Which is obviously heaven. So free will in this setup is nothing but an illusion, there is no choice to be made, because the choice plays on our fears.

You are saying that you could not choose hell because you know that you will suffer for an eternity, and your afterlife will be more miserable than you can imagine, so you have to choose heaven because you really have no choice at all and that means you have no free will to choose? In other words, the cards are stacked against you in favor of heaven.

But you still made a choice you chose heaven, so what is the problem? You made the best choice unless you think you would have preferred hell because you would not have to do the things that are required to get to heaven. Is that it?

But this doesn't change the fact, that God is simply not there for those that needs him. The way you present this doesn't allow it. Compare it to that of Christianity, why do you think it was important for them to point out, even today this is a core element in it, that you can pray to God and he hear all of them? This idea serves the very purpose of people being able to feel near God or Jesus, that they listen to you, that they care about you, that no matter how terrible a situation you are in, they are always there ready to listen to you. This makes God accessible to all, doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. Next what is done, is you add the idea that God knows all your thoughts, he knows when you do something wrong, so you can't hide from him. Which is done to secure that people are more likely to behave in accordance with whatever rules that is decided by the religions. You follow the rules, because ohhh boy if you don't God will know and will punish you for it.

The Baha’i Faith is no different from Christianity in the sense that we can pray to God and Baha’u’llah is the intercessor, and God hears everyone and God will be there for those who need Him. Baha’is feel near God and Baha’u’llah and God is accessible whether you are rich or poor. And God knows all our thoughts, good and bad, so we are more likely to behave and follow the rules.

But using a system of messengers as the Bahais suggest, might follow the same idea as Christianity. But by simply adding the idea of a messenger and that these were chosen by God and that this is the way that he primarily interact with the world.

So if one is to accept this setup, I don't see how you get around, that God is not equally present to all people around the world at they need him. He chooses those that seems to suffer the most, which must mean that in order to do this, he has to look at all countries, since suffering is often divided by national borders, and based on these he choose where to appear. The reason I said that it doesn't make any sense, is because first of all, borders are human construct, nothing on Earth, besides us decide where these borders are, so for God to play along with our silly idea is stupid, as he should look at humans as a whole.
Secondly that God has to make a choice, an evaluation of who on Earth has it the worse, is completely none sense. Because one person's suffering doesn't necessarily have anything to do with someone else suffering.

Where the Messenger appears is not determined by where there is most suffering, it is determined by which country is most decadent at that time in history. The Messenger has to be born somewhere, so He comes from somewhere, but His message is for everyone in the world. Are you going to say that Jesus was not there for everyone in the word just because Jesus appeared in Israel? How is that any different from Baha’u’llah appearing in Persia?

In regards to your option (b) that this serves a contrast to political and religious power, makes little sense as well. As God is considered the final and only authority. Why on Earth should he care about our silly political and religious power struggles? Why not just smite them to the ground and say this is how you do it. And then implement a system which is fair, honorable, based on justice, equality, peace, love and harmony.

God cares about political and religious power struggles because they affect humans and God cares about humans. God does not smite them to the ground as the OT said that God did. Even if God did that back then, those days are over. In this new age, God sent Baha’u’llah to implement a system which is fair, honorable, based on justice, equality, peace, love and harmony.

Because think of this, based on what you wrote, this is clearly part of the reason for these messengers in the first place. But it is done, in such an incompetent way, that its really difficult to buy into the idea that God should be behind it.

What is incompetent about it?

So like the idea of free will in the choice between heaven and hell above, this whole setup follows along the same lines. We as humans have to figure this out for ourselves (The free will argument), but in this case we don't really have to make a choice, but rather we need to acknowledge the idea of the messenger bringing justice and guidance. And if we just submit to them this will happen. And again, no one prefer living in a society of suffering, inequality, suppression. So there again is no choice to be made, the only sensible way to go, is to follow the messenger, because they talk about all the stuff that we like.

Even if it is the only wise choice, as you said and for the reasons you gave, we still have to choose to follow the Messenger. When we acknowledge the idea of the messenger bringing justice and guidance we are making a choice to believe that..

And again the final result, which is ultimately suppose to come out of doing this, is the exact same thing, that if God simply replaced these corrupt systems with something better. So it shouldn't matter whether this is done through a messenger or directly by God. The outcome is suppose to be the same anyway.

But God never does it Himself; God always does it through the Messenger who acts as an intermediary, kind of like an attorney intercedes on behalf of his clients.

(Continued...)

 

[Trailblazer]

Because JW believe they are correct, so they spread one idea, bahai suggest another, christians a third and obviously muslims a fourth. They can't all be right, the way this system is set up, simply doesn't work as these different ideas conflict with each other.

The way the message is delivered is not new, but the message of Baha’u’llah is new. The system would work if every time a new Messenger of God came people accepted Him as having the new and updated message, instead of clinging tenaciously to their older religions. The messages of the various religions were all right for the ages in which they were delivered but none of these messages are right for all of time. Rather, each one of those messages was tailored for the age in which it was delivered, and it nullifies the previous messages. It does not nullify their spiritual teachings which are eternal, it only nullifies the social teachings and laws and the remedy for the world that was given to suit a previous age.

God clearly must know which is true, yet have done nothing for the last thousands of years settling this issue, what is correct? …. and still God have not stepped in and told them, "Look Christianity is right, not Islam, stop killing each other, God dammit!!" so what does that tell about God and how much he cares about the arabic world. And this is not unique for Islam, you can do that for all the religions on varies topics. Because the fact is, that these simply can't all be true.

They were all true for the ages in which they were revealed but they are not all true for any given age, because as you said, that causes conflict. Sure, God knows which one is true and God settles this issue every time He sends a new Messenger with a new message which explains that. It is not God’s fault that people cling to their older religions and Messengers which essentially prevents people from seeing the new religion and Messenger.

Why all the limitations, I truly think that is one of the things that puzzles atheists the most, whenever we talk with religious people, its all these unwritten restrictions. If a person come to me and say "Look this God is amazing, he is all powerful, omniscience and all loving" then gloves are off, plain and simple.

In my opinion, religious people ought to do one of two things. 1. Stop saying that God is these things. or 2. Stop putting limitations on God, one or the other.

"Look this God is amazing, he is all powerful, omniscience and all loving" does not mean God can do anything. Attributes given to God are that God is spirit, so God cannot do the things you believe He can. Atheists who have these ridiculous expectations of God (and it is not all atheists by any means) have no idea who or what God actually is. They say God is omnipotent so God can do anything which really translates to God is omnipotent so God should do everything I expect Him to do, which is drop dead illogical because an omnipotent God does not take orders from humans.

Why would you think that the miracles would need to come from the messenger? God is the one that has all the power, he can perform global miracles so amazing, that no one would be able to deny it. He could speak to each of us, making sure that there is no doubt that we are talking about God. But... nope, this can't happen because..... limitation, why? ... because reason. But don't worry God is all power.. ... No, he is not, now stop saying that!!

God could do all of that but He does not want to. That is the reason He doesn’t. What about that do you not understand?

Omnipotent means God is All-Powerful, but any logical person could figure out that a God that is All-Powerful does not do anything He does not WANT to do, because He does not have to. That means you cannot order God around like a short order cook and expect to get the hamburger as you would like it.

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

It seems to me, like the whole Bahai faith is hooked up on the free will argument. Nothing apparently can be done, because of this damn free will thing.

That makes no difference anyway in the end.

Free will makes all the difference because it means you are free to choose to believe or not believe.

Honestly, I had no idea who he was or that Bahai even existed, before I spoke with you

I can tell you for a fact, that my brother, mom or dad, will have absolutely no clue about it, if I asked them. And honestly, I would be surprised if they don't go into the grave without ever knowing. Are they bad people? definitely not, but why weren't they presented with this, if God intended everyone to know?

Simply put, the reason they do not know is because the Baha’is did not tell them, and that is not your family’s fault because it is the Baha’is who are responsible for telling everyone. But obviously we are as yet few on number, so we cannot tell everyone in the world. Those people who have not heard are not at all responsible for believing in Baha’u’llah because that would be an injustice and God is just.

"Then as to what thou hast asked me for pious people who died before they heard the Voice of this Manifestation. Listen: Those who have mounted to God before hearing the Voice, if they followed the rules of conduct as laid down by Jesus and always walked in the straight path, they have obtained this Dazzling Light after their rising to the Kingdom of God. I pray God to lift the veil for thee and to corroborate by the spirit of experience, so that all may be evident to thee, by the Holy Spirit of God." ('Abdu'l-Bahá, Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, p. 478)

You could argue that I could tell them, but I wouldn't share any meant teachings and honestly they would not care about it either. So if all this is true, why doesn't God care about them knowing? Saying that they have to do the hard work, is just not going to cut it. That idea only works for those that have already bought into the idea. No different, than a muslim, christian or hindu, couldn't say the same thing to you, why haven't you read all their material either? Yet you have decided that Bahai is correct, so if you are wrong, you are in an equally bad position as anyone else that got it wrong.

God does care about them knowing and that is why God told Baha’u’llah to enjoin the Baha’is to carry His message far and wide, but because we all have free will not all Baha’is follow that injunction. God is not to blame for that, as the responsibility it falls squarely on the Baha’is.

We are not a bad person or blameworthy for “getting it wrong.” All God expects is that we will do the work. We cannot be expected to investigate all the religions in the world because most people do not have that much time. We simply look at what seems most likely to be true for us.

This is just an example of how these conflicts and rules end up conflicting in other religions as well, but the idea is the same, that the way these things are suppose to work, having members do the work of God, so to speak, is not an effective or even fair way to do it.

I don’t see why not? Every believer has a clear shot of it. They present their religion to the nonbeliever as best they can and whatever happens happens.

Lets assume that Baha'u'llah is what he say. How come God didn't give him such good evidence, that he would be able to convince anyone. Doesn't that strike you as being slightly odd?

That is simple to answer:

(1) God gave Baha’u’llah good evidence but not everyone hears about Baha’u’llah, and
(2) Of those that hear about Him, not everyone recognizes the evidence as good, and
(3) God wants belief to be a free choice, so God is not going to influence that choice, and
(4) It does not matter to God if the evidence is convincing because God does not care how many people recognize Baha’u’llah, since God knows that in the future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah.

So from a Christian point of view, Baha'u'llah could be a false prophet, would you agree with that? (From a Christian point of view)

From a Christian point of view Baha’u’llah is a false prophet because if they believed he was a true Prophet they would become a Baha’i.

You might say that and as noble as it might sound. You can't avoid getting into conflicts with other religions. Just as you said above, Jesus never walked on water or raised the dead. That is in direct conflict with what a lot of Christians believe, so you might not say it directly or even believe that you are not claiming to be the only true religion, but it happens automatically whether you like it or not, its not a choice you have, the moment you claim that something about the other religions are not true.

No, we cannot avoid getting into conflicts with other religions but it is not so much that we say we do not believe everything that they believe as much as because we claim to be the fulfillment of all the religions of the past, and that means the Baha’i Faith supersedes their religions. If we are we are, but everyone has to determine that for themselves.

This only make sense for a person living a decent live to say, for the person that starve and loosing family members due to war, disease etc. not so much.

The point is that God is not going to intervene in the world to fix these things. Some atheists insist on this, that since God is omnipotent God could do this, but they never think it through and realize the implications of what they are saying and what would happen if God interfered with this world and the way things are supposed to work.

 

[Nimos]

But you still made a choice you chose heaven, so what is the problem? You made the best choice unless you think you would have preferred hell because you would not have to do the things that are required to get to heaven. Is that it?

You are correct that one made a choice between heaven and hell, in the same way as you could make a choice of taking the save route down a mountain or you could jump off the edge and smash to the grounds below, both options get you where you need to go, which is to the bottom of the mountain.

However most people would not really consider jumping off the edge a valid option, but if a person simply want to get to the bottom and doesn't care about whether they live or die, then I guess you could call it an option. The same can be said about heaven and hell, if you don't care about eternal suffering then not doing what God want is an option.

But it is not only that, because all of this is based on the idea and importance of free will, we have to freely choose God by accepting the teachings, and to do that we can't be allowed to see the powers of God, as that would ruin this very idea.
But the initial setup of choices you have to make doesn't matter in regards to free will anyway. Jumping off the mountain is not considered an option, choosing hell is not considered an option. Hell is used as a punishment for those that do not accept the teachings, and even if one do not believe in hell, the lack of heaven is used as the punishment. And you can do that with pretty much all these religious ideas. Not accepting the teachings of Baha'u'llah have consequences, therefore you better believe him, you better accept God's teachings and you better take the save path down the mountain.

So it have nothing to do with not wanting to do what it takes to go to heaven. Its simply not a logical sound set of choices we are being presented for.

The issue is that in this setup free will does not matter, because there is only one logical option, the choice of free will, is nothing more than an illusion.

Baha’is feel near God and Baha’u’llah and God is accessible whether you are rich or poor. And God knows all our thoughts, good and bad, so we are more likely to behave and follow the rules.

This to me ruins the idea of a messenger, if God already knows your thoughts and he can listen to you through your prayers, then why doesn't he interact with you, you are a Bahai, and have already accepted the teachings of Baha'u'llah, so in God eyes you ought to be worthy?
If God can listen to all people's prayers and keep track of all our thoughts, then why not speak to all of us. And if he find me unworthy being an atheist, then at least he could talk directly to the Bahais. It wouldn't interfere with your free will, as you have already accepted it as being true, so what would be the problem with that?

Where the Messenger appears is not determined by where there is most suffering, it is determined by which country is most decadent at that time in history.

And God accepting human created borders seems ridiculous to me, simply because borders changes, cultures gets destroyed, absorbed into others and in general they just change over time etc.

Are you going to say that Jesus was not there for everyone in the word just because Jesus appeared in Israel? How is that any different from Baha’u’llah appearing in Persia?

Because Jesus weren't original for everyone, hardly anything in the bible suggest that he was. This is something that is added later, with some of the gospels and especially Paul.

Jesus were said to be the Messiah of the Jewish people, he was a Jew, he cared about the law and wanted it to be even more strict, because he did not like how the Pharisees and those with the knowledge of the law handled it. They were misusing and exploiting it, which is why Jesus have no friendly words about them. You have to remember back then all the power were in the hands of the temple in regards to religious disputes, how the law and word of God were to be understood, they decided what was right and wrong. It was not like today, where we can just pick up a bible and point out why something ain't correct, because its not what the bible say. Hardly anyone back then could read or write, especially not one like Jesus coming from a poor family.

So Jesus were all for the old testament and getting the Jews back on track following the law and closer to God.

You even have the apostles disagreeing about how to handle the gentiles, because obviously they are not keen on the hold foreskin thing and the law in general, which is why Paul argues that these rules were only for the Jews and that it is not through the law that you are saved, but through the faith in Jesus. Which clearly is not what Jesus said and even some of the other apostles, disagree with him and say that it is through the law. Personally I think Paul needed to do this, because he simply couldn't convince the gentiles to do this, so the rules had to change, if he should have any chance of success spreading the teachings.

But there is lots of examples of Jesus saying that the law must not be changed, he even give examples from it and say that they should be followed. Like the law that "if a child curses their parents, that they should be killed, exactly as the law demand." Yet most Christians, does not seem to care that Jesus supports this. But it is in the bible!!.

What im not saying, is that Baha'u'llah didn't intend to be for everyone, again I do not think that Bahai and Christianity seems to go all that well together. And would probably refer to Bahais as a sort of extension of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, in a huge mess which seems to end up conflicting with all of them. But not really any different than all other religions seemingly ending up conflicting with each other as well, in regards to all of them claiming to be the one true religion.

What is incompetent about it?

Because the intent of this whole setup is for God to be able to share his teachings with us, so we can ultimately be saved.

Now there ought to be no limits to how these teachings can be taught to us, taking into account that we are talking about an all powerful God. So in order to share these teachings God select ONE person among billions to carry out these teachings, by writing a lot of books, which then needs to be translated into other languages, knowing that translations can contain errors, meanings might change and so forth.

With the amount of power such God must have, it just seems incompetent that he would choose such solution, knowing how it went with the bible, how that eventually laid the foundation for Islam. Which now and back then have caused all these religions into fighting each other about who is correct, even internally in these religions as well. So rather than learning from this, God think that doing the exact same thing with the Bahais is the correct way, which shouldn't surprise anyone, that they instantly got into conflict with the other religions. How would you consider that competent? Now if it was done by humans fair enough, then it makes a lot more sense. But keep in mind that we are talking about God here, is that really the best way he could come up with?

When we acknowledge the idea of the messenger bringing justice and guidance we are making a choice to believe that..

But even that have not been demonstrated, the guidance of Baha'u'llah is not proven to be better than that of a none messenger with a good idea of how to improve things. The bahais have rules, which we have talked a bit about, that to me is not an expression of Justice or fairness in my eyes, they are rules that do not make sense to me. Like woman not being allowed to be in the house of Justice. I know you do not care, which is fine. But from a point of view of fairness and justice, it simply doesn't suggest that.

You would have to make a sound case, why woman are less capable of taking on this role compared to a man?

But God never does it Himself; God always does it through the Messenger who acts as an intermediary, kind of like an attorney intercedes on behalf of his clients.

Well depends what you believe, clearly God had no issues smiting people left right and center for the Jews. Again this is something that you simply doesn't believe in, because you are convinced of the messenger idea. But this is something that Bahai would have to convince the other religions about, and I doubt that is going to happen.

Also if it was not true, why does God allow the Jews to spread these lies about him? It doesn't really look good on his resumé of being all good. Makes you wonder.

The system would work if every time a new Messenger of God came people accepted Him as having the new and updated message, instead of clinging tenaciously to their older religions.

Exactly, but it doesn't as long as they do not provide sufficient evidence, you can't blame the other religions or even atheists for not buying into it. As this grand plan were decided by God and clearly it is not working correctly.

Anyone can improve on former religions, it is not difficult at all. I could improve Christianity by simply removing a couple of laws and it would be a lot better than it is now. But that doesn't mean that it is more correct, in fact its probably worse, because I manipulate something which I have no authority to do, because it would ruin the historical purpose of what these texts meant, even though they might be better.

Continue..

 

[Nimos]

They were all true for the ages in which they were revealed but they are not all true for any given age, because as you said, that causes conflict.

That is simply impossible, because several different religions existed at the same time, which were vastly different. So they can't all be true, you have simply decided that the biblical one were the true one at the time. But it makes no sense, because all the countries around Israel at the time, had their own religions and were much more successful in regard to prosperity and power than the Jews were.

"Look this God is amazing, he is all powerful, omniscience and all loving" does not mean God can do anything. Attributes given to God are that God is spirit, so God cannot do the things you believe He can. Atheists who have these ridiculous expectations of God (and it is not all atheists by any means) have no idea who or what God actually is. They say God is omnipotent so God can do anything which really translates to God is omnipotent so God should do everything I expect Him to do, which is drop dead illogical because an omnipotent God does not take orders from humans.

I don't expect God to do anything, because it is clear that he doesn't if he exists. But there is nothing unfair in wondering why religious people constantly has to limit the abilities of God, whenever they are questioned about it.

However the moment they simply have to explain God, there is no limits.

Omnipotent means God is All-Powerful, but any logical person could figure out that a God that is All-Powerful does not do anything He does not WANT to do, because He does not have to. That means you cannot order God around like a short order cook and expect to get the hamburger as you would like it.

But then why the whole thing about him caring about humans, he can do everything, chooses not to, he really cares about humans, but let us suffer. It makes no sense, adding all these things to him, when no explanation is given.

And its not about ordering God around, if he created us, he must have had a purpose for it, right? The purpose that almost all religions give, is that God cares for us, correct?

What type of God or person, who really cared for someone wouldn't help them in times of need? Imagine someone you love being extremely sick, you have the power to save them, but choose not to do it, because that is life in your eyes. What would that tell about you as a person?
How could you argue to love the person, while at the same time, stand there with the solution to all their problems and do nothing. The person, might not even know that you had the power to do something and therefore wouldn't ask you for help. You simply wouldn't do anything, because....reason.

There need to be consistency in these things, which is why they make such little sense as they do, when all these terms, ideas, abilities and rules are just thrown into the food mixer and turn to maximum and the stuff that comes out is pure none sense.

Free will makes all the difference because it means you are free to choose to believe or not believe.

I don't get why you can not see why free will doesn't matter?

If I asked you to go from point A to point B via one of two path, the choice is yours.

a. You can take the road that leads you savely to point B
b. You can choose to swim through the river filled with crocodiles and if you make it you will get to point B as well.

What option do you choose, where in this choice do you believe that free will matters? Is it the mere fact that I allow you to choose?

Baha’is who are responsible for telling everyone. But obviously we are as yet few on number, so we cannot tell everyone in the world.

No this is not Bahais fault, its God's fault, he decided to do it this way, which clearly means that a whole lot of people are going to die, never having heard about the Bahais. But if it doesn't matter anyway, whether they heard about it or not, what in hell is going on then?
What is the purpose of the messenger, if the word of God is not even capable of getting spread effectively to people and in the end it doesn't matter anyway?

(1) God gave Baha’u’llah good evidence but not everyone hears about Baha’u’llah

Im sorry, but he didn't give him good evidence. If he had done that, he would have given him evidence in the type that Einstein and Newton had, which have convinced pretty much everyone on Earth that they were correct. That is good evidence.

(2) Of those that hear about Him, not everyone recognizes the evidence as good

Because they ain't, plain and simple. If they were they would convince people. It doesn't matter if its religious stuff or something completely different. People get convinced by good evidence, by demonstration, by proves etc. It doesn't matter what topic we are talking about. Like the example with the person in the video I showed you about being able to hold your breath for 22 minutes. Had you no knowledge of this and me simply telling you that a person could do this, when you can hold you breath for 2 minutes yourself to then having to believe that a person can hold it for such a long time. There is a good chance that you are not going to be convince by me simply telling you. But me throwing a video of someone actually doing it, clearly should convince you. Because the evidence is sound.

(3) God wants belief to be a free choice, so God is not going to influence that choice,

There is no choice in this setup, it is not fair options that we are being presented for. Again the example with the crocodiles above. Free will is irrelevant in this case, its nothing but an illusion.

(4) It does not matter to God if the evidence is convincing because God does not care how many people recognize Baha’u’llah, since God knows that in the future everyone will recognize Baha’u’llah.

Absolutely none sense, giving the very reason for this whole thing. God's purpose for creating us, the whole idea of him caring for us, heaven and hell. The whole setup makes no sense, if God did not care about us accepting his teachings and wanting to save us. What other option is there, in this setup?

From a Christian point of view Baha’u’llah is a false prophet because if they believed he was a true Prophet they would become a Baha’i.

Exactly So according to you, clearly the Christians are wrong. Therefore you have a conflict. They think Baha'u'llah is wrong, you don't. You convincing them that Baha'u'llah is who he claims, make Jesus a liar, as he said that no one would come after him, but that he would return when the time were right. Which clearly should have happened already according to the bible, so guess he was wrong about that as well, but that is another story

The point is that God is not going to intervene in the world to fix these things. Some atheists insist on this, that since God is omnipotent God could do this, but they never think it through and realize the implications of what they are saying and what would happen if God interfered with this world and the way things are supposed to work.

Honestly I see no implications at all, if the intend is to go to heaven anyway, which is considered ruled by God or Jesus depending on how you look at it, clearly God is more than capable of ruling, and would be expected to be able to do this much better than any human. So I don't think that is a valid excuse.

 

[Jainarayan]

This question is for believers and nonbelievers.

If God exists/existed would God welcome everyone into heaven as soon as they died, regardless of the kind of life they had lived on earth? For example, would God welcome a mass murderer into heaven and treat him the same way as a person who had lived a noble life serving others and worshiping God?

If you think God would welcome everyone into heaven, why would God do that?

If you think God would not welcome everyone into heaven why wouldn’t God do that?

It depends on your definition of or belief in God. Not everyone believes the Abrahamic God is the God. I certainly don’t. But coincidentally I found this come up in my daily Facebook feed just today:

So yes, God accepts everyone into “Heaven”.

Footnote: Kailash Or Kailaśa is the abode of Shiva (Śiva); Mahādeva is another name for Shiva meaning Great God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Where the Messenger appears is not determined by where there is most suffering, it is determined by which country is most decadent at that time in history. The Messenger has to be born somewhere, so He comes from somewhere, but His message is for everyone in the world. Are you going to say that Jesus was not there for everyone in the word just because Jesus appeared in Israel? How is that any different from Baha’u’llah appearing in Persia?

Where in the world isn't decadent? The prophets of the Jewish Bible were all in and around the Middle East. The Hindu avatars were all in India. Don't Baha'is believe that no people were left without spiritual guidance? Then all people must have had some kind of messengers from God? But only got a new one when they become more decadent then any where else on Earth? I don't think so.

You can't avoid getting into conflicts with other religions. Just as you said above, Jesus never walked on water or raised the dead. That is in direct conflict with what a lot of Christians believe, so you might not say it directly or even believe that you are not claiming to be the only true religion, but it happens automatically whether you like it or not, its not a choice you have, the moment you claim that something about the other religions are not true.

That's automatic. Once the Baha'i say that there are beliefs and/or practices in all the other religions that aren't true, they become the only true one.

No, we cannot avoid getting into conflicts with other religions but it is not so much that we say we do not believe everything that they believe as much as because we claim to be the fulfillment of all the religions of the past, and that means the Baha’i Faith supersedes their religions. If we are we are, but everyone has to determine that for themselves.

And how do the people in the other religions check to see if Baha'u'llah is the "fulfillment" of their religion? I would think prophecies would be one of the main ways to see. But the prophecies are too vague or taken so far out of context as to make it questionable whether they were ever meant to be a prophecies. Like Christians believe the Holy Spirit is the Comforter promised by Jesus. In context, since Christians wrote the story, it fits. Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah is the promised Comforter. And, as I have said before, it's not just one Comforter. It's not just one return of Christ. Baha'is believe there have been three returns since Jesus.

The point is that God is not going to intervene in the world to fix these things.

And what's the whole message of Revelation? That God is going to intervene in a big way. The world is going to feel the wrath of God. One place it says, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Rev 6:10. Then all hell breaks lose. Even the destruction of Jerusalem was God's judgement on Israel. And, don't Baha'is believe that God is going to cause a lot of tribulations on people for not accepting Baha'u'llah? But, of course, we have "free" will to continue to chose not to follow God, while everything crumbles around us. So, is it free will or God gave as a rational mind to make decisions on what we think is best and what is true? The Baha'i Faith is so close to being a good choice... except for just a few dumb things they say and believe. Like all religions came from God. Logical to you. Not so much for me.

Because the intent of this whole setup is for God to be able to share his teachings with us, so we can ultimately be saved.

A much better way that God used is for a more powerful people to conquer a weaker people and force them to believe in their religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

It depends on your definition of or belief in God. Not everyone believes the Abrahamic God is the God. I certainly don’t. But coincidentally I found this come up in my daily Facebook feed just today:

View attachment 39633

So yes, God accepts everyone into “Heaven”

People are free to believe whatever they want to believe.
I cannot believe that a just God would accept everyone into heaven, because good and evil cannot coexist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Where in the world isn't decadent? The prophets of the Jewish Bible were all in and around the Middle East. The Hindu avatars were all in India. Don't Baha'is believe that no people were left without spiritual guidance? Then all people must have had some kind of messengers from God? But only got a new one when they become more decadent then any where else on Earth? I don't think so.

Baha'is believe that some prophets are sent to a particular locality That fits with what it says in the Qur'an, that God has sent Prophets to every nation.

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

The Three Kinds of Prophets​

That's automatic. Once the Baha'i say that there are beliefs and/or practices in all the other religions that aren't true, they become the only true one.

No, that is not true and it is not even logical. Those beliefs and practices were established by men, not by any Manifestations of God, so they are liable to error.

And how do the people in the other religions check to see if Baha'u'llah is the "fulfillment" of their religion? I would think prophecies would be one of the main ways to see. But the prophecies are too vague or taken so far out of context as to make it questionable whether they were ever meant to be a prophecies. Like Christians believe the Holy Spirit is the Comforter promised by Jesus. In context, since Christians wrote the story, it fits. Baha'is say that Baha'u'llah is the promised Comforter. And, as I have said before, it's not just one Comforter. It's not just one return of Christ. Baha'is believe there have been three returns since Jesus.

The prophecies are there for people to look at in Thief in the Night by William Sears. They are not vague and when taken together, they could not be referring to more than one man.

Baha'is believe there have been three Manifestations of God since Jesus but not all of them were the return of Christ and the Messiah, only Baha'u'llah made that claim.

And what's the whole message of Revelation? That God is going to intervene in a big way. The world is going to feel the wrath of God.

In case you have not noticed, that has already happened and it might happen again.

And, don't Baha'is believe that God is going to cause a lot of tribulations on people for not accepting Baha'u'llah?

No, we do not believe that.

The Baha'i Faith is so close to being a good choice... except for just a few dumb things they say and believe. Like all religions came from God. Logical to you. Not so much for me.

That is the only thing that makes logical sense to me because there is only One God, so that means that all the 'legitimate' religions have to come from that one God. That also means that no religion is wrong because an infallible God cannot be wrong, so even if the followers make mistakes that does not matter. That is no reflection on the religion that was revealed by the Manifestation of God.

 

[Super Universe]

This question is for believers and nonbelievers.

If God exists/existed would God welcome everyone into heaven as soon as they died, regardless of the kind of life they had lived on earth? For example, would God welcome a mass murderer into heaven and treat him the same way as a person who had lived a noble life serving others and worshiping God?

If you think God would welcome everyone into heaven, why would God do that?

If you think God would not welcome everyone into heaven why wouldn’t God do that?

Heaven is not the next step. There are many levels to go through. When you get to heaven you do not get to talk to God. No one does. You can view Him. He looks like the sun. He has very important work to do that no other being can do.

No one ever gets to interrogate God. You learn the answers to your questions long before you get to heaven.

Mass murderer's are either psychopaths, narcissists, or very close. The universe has no use for them. They won't make it out of level 2, the next level.

 

[Trailblazer]

Heaven is not the next step. There are many levels to go through. When you get to heaven you do not get to talk to God. No one does. You can view Him. He looks like the sun. He has very important work to do that no other being can do.

No one ever gets to interrogate God. You learn the answers to your questions long before you get to heaven.

Mass murderer's are either psychopaths, narcissists, or very close. The universe has no use for them. They won't make it out of level 2, the next level.

So you believe in levels too. Have you ever read this book? The Afterlife Revealed

It talks about the seven spheres and it is very similar to what you are saying.
This is not part of my religious beliefs but the depiction of the spiritual world is very similar to what we believe.

This book also incorporates themes from my religious beliefs and talks about levels we go to: Private Dowding

 

[Super Universe]

So you believe in levels too. Have you ever read this book? The Afterlife Revealed

It talks about the seven spheres and it is very similar to what you are saying.
This is not part of my religious beliefs but the depiction of the spiritual world is very similar to what we believe.

This book also incorporates themes from my religious beliefs and talks about levels we go to: Private Dowding

I have not read that book but I will.

I'm not sure what the books seven spheres refers to but the number seven reflects the seven super universes.

The reason there are seven is because each one is for a being of the Trinity and then there is one for all of them. So, the seven super universes are: God, Son, Spirit, God and Son, God and Spirit, Son and Spirit, and then God and Son and Spirit. Our super universe has all three.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have not read that book but I will.

I'm not sure what the books seven spheres refers to but the number seven reflects the seven super universes.

The reason there are seven is because each one is for a being of the Trinity and then there is one for all of them. So, the seven super universes are: God, Son, Spirit, God and Son, God and Spirit, Son and Spirit, and then God and Son and Spirit. Our super universe has all three.

Another book I like is Heaven and Hell written by a Christian and published in 1758. It gets into a lot of details. I am not sure I believe all if the details but I think he has the general idea correct. That book is online free to read and it can also be purchased.

 

[Super Universe]

Another book I like is Heaven and Hell written by a Christian and published in 1758. It gets into a lot of details. I am not sure I believe all if the details but I think he has the general idea correct. That book is online free to read and it can also be purchased.

I will download and read all of those books.

 

[Trailblazer]

I will download and read all of those books.

Please let me know what you think when you are done reading. Private Dowding is a really short book.

 

[Muffled]

From Baha'u'llah.

I believe he is not capable of giving it. The Holy Spirit proceeds from Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

Please let me know what you think when you are done reading. Private Dowding is a really short book.

I read a little of his bio on Wikipedia. I believe like Joe Smith he may have thought that he was hearing from God but the bad theology indicates otherwise.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe he is not capable of giving it. The Holy Spirit proceeds from Jesus.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that proceeds from all the Manifestations of God.

Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?
Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection. Some Answered Questions, p. 108

25: THE HOLY SPIRIT

 

[Trailblazer]

I read a little of his bio on Wikipedia.

Whose bio?