Nimos
Well-Known Member
Might be, I didn't understand any of it and fail to see how that relate to what I wrote
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Does God welcome everyone into heaven?
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Erebus
Well-Known Member
Full disclosure, I don't believe in capital G God and my stance on the afterlife is that we just don't know. I'm inclined towards belief in something rather than nothing but this is based only on gut feeling rather than anything rational and I can't claim firm belief in any specifics.
With that in mind, I'm going to treat this as a hypothetical. This is going to be what I personally think a just God would do. Based on how the world is, I'm also going to assume that this God isn't able to prevent suffering but instead attempts to make something positive out of it.
I imagine that a just God would want people to be happy in the afterlife but would also want them to learn their lessons. Eternal torment wouldn't achieve this, though a temporary purgatory state might.
That purgatory would probably teach best by making its inhabitants experience for themselves the suffering that they caused in life. So a plantation owner from the 1800's might experience what it was like to be a slave. The more brutally the plantation owner treated their slaves in life, the more brutal their purgatory would be. A billionaire who made his money by exploiting his workforce may have to experience what it's like to be at the bottom of that company. A serial killer may have to experience the pain and terror of his victims as well as the grief of their families.
Now there are some purgatory concepts already out there but in my opinion they tend to be utterly excessive and ill-suited to teaching life lessons. Some of the temporary hell concepts in Eastern religions involve extreme torture (burning, mutilation, boiling, etc) that lasts for billions of years. I honestly don't see how that accomplishes anything.
Eventually, a soul would have learned its lessons and be fit for entry into heaven or perhaps another shot at life on earth. For some souls, those lessons may take longer and be harsher than for others. Ultimately though, no soul would be doomed to eternal torment.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
I agree, that is why I would assume that a state of limbo exists, if we go anywhere in the first place. Which I would not assume, what would be the purpose for keeping our souls, either in a Heaven or in a state of limbo for that matter?
If God wanted us to have a soul (Whatever that might be), I think we would be aware of it, in the same way as we are aware of our brain, our thoughts etc. Why would God hide it from us or not make it obviously clear that we have one. One explanation could be for him to judge us at the end of our life, but what sense does that make, if you think about it. If the soul is what is to be judged for whatever in this life, but we are not ourselves aware or able to perceive or even understand what a soul might be, then the judgement of it and our whole existence here on Earth is completely meaningless.
Therefore you need some sort of afterlife to punish or reward a person for it to make any sense, but also you need humans to be able to "fail/sin" so the blame goes on them and not God.
But again, I do not think that God is either good nor evil, because nothing seem to suggest that, and therefore there will be no judgement in the end. And a being capable of creating everything is not incompetent, so assuming that he would create us with faulty behaviours which he wouldn't approve of, would make him exactly that.
The reason being that free will doesn't really explain anything. Whether we have free will or not, makes not difference, as we wouldn't be able to know the difference anyway.
Like us writing these posts, how would you demonstrate that it was not already decided a long time ago or whether we actually decided it through free will moments before we wrote them?
I personally do think we have free will, but it is not something that is granted to us as a "reward" or as a way for us to show God that we live up to his standard. Again the assumption is that humans and each of us as individuals are special. But nothing seems to suggest that, we are made of the exact same stuff that all other animals here on Earth is made of. We function in the same way, we show the same type of behaviour as they do. There is a reasonable explanation for our intelligent (brain). So unless you add a soul we really are not all that different from other animals. Which obviously lead to a lot of questions, first of all, why would there be a need for suffering? Why does it have to be painful for woman to give birth? Why does animals have to eat each other?
There is no logical reason why any of this is needed. In regards to behaviour, lets assume that you could create beings like God could, without any limits.
So imagine that you created Cats, which I know you love. Why on Earth, if you loved them so much, would you make them so they ran around killing, raping and murdering each other? And then be angry or disappointed in them when they did it? Obviously, you having complete control over how you want these cats to behave, you would be considered incompetent, if you created them like that. And I think you would agree that you wouldn't. Because how would you explain you loving or being so fond of them, if you constantly have to worry about them killing each other, unless you wouldn't care, because you made them that way?
It might be, im purely talking about this from what we can see in the world and what we at least know up until now.Again, you are viewing Heaven as a 'place' God sends people to get their reward for good behavior.
I believe Heaven exists simply because God created Heaven, just as God created Earth, since we need both as part of our total existence.
God did make us as He wanted us to be, but then we made choices after which will determine if we go to Heaven or.... the other place.
Again why or what would be the purpose of sending anyone to heaven? Think about it using the cat example above... would you throw the cats that murdered some of the others in hell or punish them for doing it, when you made them that way? How would you be able to look yourself in the eyes, skinning a cat alive for eternity, keep reattaching its skin and ripping it off (Assuming that was hell for a cat) because it did something that you made it capable of to begin with. Not only would that make you incompetent, but also extremely evil.
If you really loved them, you would make it so they had no reason/desire for doing so, and its not unrealistic or even an unreasonable idea, as lot of animals living today on Earth do not murder and kill each other like we do.
Furthermore, if you really loved cats, why not make them live places, where they really like living? Would you put them on an island, which were flooded every now or then, killing thousands of them? or at random times, make them die of starvation, diseases etc? Assuming you would, ask yourself why would you do it what would be the justification for it? Why not put them in a place you would consider heaven for cats to begin with and let them live good lives?
Depending what your view of heaven is, I would say that no one is living there, as long as you have suffering, there can't be one. At least not in my understanding of it.
But lets take a simple question, again assume that you are the Goddess of Cats, and im a Cat. I then ask you, the following. Why did you create Heaven and Hell? What would you answer to that?
Taking into account what I wrote above, How do you see this being expressed in the world, keep in mind that God loves all humans? (At least I assume he does)
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
This is because you do not know Eastern religions. The punishment is calibrated to the sin. Moreover, if there is some serious torture in some cases, its effects do not show in the next birth. Karma in Hinduism - Wikipedia gives you some details.
Kindly know that this is not the only kind of belief in Hinduism. I am an atheist Hindu believing in non-duality. So, there is no one to judge my actions (karmas) other than society and myself. Society will take cognizance of my actions if it knows about them. For actions that the society does not come to know about, I am my own judge. One cannot fool the judge, if a person himself is the judge for his/her actions. I know if I fault somewhere. I try to eradicate that fault because it may have a wrong effect on the society. After death, there is nothing other than recycling and what constitutes me will go to become part of millions of other living and non-living things.
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Erebus
Well-Known Member
Serious torture would be one such example of what I'm talking about. A quick search for Naraka gives the following image:
Seems a little excessive, no?
In addition to the wikipedia article on karma, there is also the article on Naraka. It provides some examples of the tortures people might endure and the reasons they endure them:
Naraka (Hinduism) - Wikipedia
A couple of examples:
Asipatravana/Asipatrakanana (forest of sword leaves): The Bhagavata Purana and the Devi Bhagavata Purana reserve this hell for a person who digresses from the religious teachings of the Vedas and indulges in heresy.[3][4] The Vishnu Purana states that wanton tree-felling leads to this hell.[5] Yamadutas beat them with whips as they try to run away in the forest where palm trees have swords as leaves. Afflicted with injury of whips and swords, they faint and cry out for help in vain.
Krimibhojana/Krimibhaksha (worm-food): As per the Bhagavata Purana and the Devi Bhagavata Purana, it is where a person who does not share his food with guests, elders, children or the gods, and selfishly eats it alone, and he who eats without performing the five yajnas (panchayajna) is chastised.[3][4] The Vishnu Purana states that one who loathes his father, Brahmins or the gods and who destroys jewels is punished here.[5] This hell is a 100,000 yojana lake filled with worms. The sinful person is reduced to a worm, who feeds on other worms, who in turn devour his body for 100,000 years.
In fairness, spending billions of years in one of the hells seems to be more a trait of some Buddhist concepts of Naraka, though I would still argue that 100,000 years is far too long.
That's fine. I can respect your stance but please understand that I'm under no illusion that all Hindus or Buddhists believe the same thing. Christianity is also hardly a unified whole when it comes to belief in Hell.
If you don't believe in the torments I illustrated above then my criticism doesn't apply to you any more than my criticism of eternal hellfire applies to all Christians.
*Edit*
For the sake of fairness, I'll include an example of an unjustifiable punishment from Greek mythology:
King Ixion was guilty of murder, failure to uphold xenia (the rules of hospitality) and hubris. All serious offences to the Greeks.
His punishment was to be taken down to Tartarus and bound to a wheel of fire that spun through the air for eternity.
As awful as Ixion may have been, for that punishment to last eternity is unjustifiable in my opinion. For that punishment to last millennia is far too excessive. This is one more example of the kind of afterlife punishments I take issue with.
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Samantha Rinne
Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
Since I've got church soon, I'll just answer the last two questions as one question.
Everyone is welcome into Heaven. But not everyone wants to go there.
izzy88
Active Member
1 John 4:8
"He who does not love does not know God; for God is love."
Paul also teaches the same message you mentioned about the "prison of the self" in some of his letters.
Virtually everything you said aligns pretty much perfectly with Catholic teaching. Very cool.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Very nice way that you have put here. A like for that. The two examples that you have mentioned are very noble and fair. No harm to trees and sharing of food. A Hindu child who harms shrubs or trees will be admonished by his elders.
These are creations of brahmins priests in the middle ages and included them in 'Garuda Purana', the recitation of which by the priests became, sort of norm, during the rituals after death. It was basically a money making thing. Exaggeration by Puranas does not surprise anyone.
The Garuda Purana is .. a part of Vaishnavism literature corpus (therefore, may not considered valid by other Hindus), primarily centering around Hindu god Vishnu, praises all gods. Composed in Sanskrit, the earliest version of the text may have been composed in the first millennium BCE, but it was likely expanded and changed over a long period of time. The Garuda Purana text is known in many versions, contains 16000 verses. Wikipedia has this to say about the relevant part of the Purana:
Pretakhanda (Ghost section - Garuda Purana - Wikipedia):
The second section of the text, also known as Uttara Khanda and Pretakalpa, includes chapters on funeral rites and life after death. .. The Pretakhanda is the second and minor part of Garuda Purana. It is, states Rocher, "entirely unsystematic work" presented with motley confusion and many repetitions in the Purana, dealing with "death, the dead and beyond". Monier Monier-Williams wrote in 1891, that portions of verses recited at cremation funerals are perhaps based on this relatively modern section of the Garuda Purana, but added that Hindu funeral practices do not always agree with guidance in the Garuda Purana. Three quite different versions of Pretakhanda of Garuda Purana are known, and the variation between the chapters, states Jonathan Parry, is enormous.
"The Mahapuranas have also been classified based on a specific deity, although the texts are mixed and revere all gods and goddesses (Puranas - Wikipedia):
Brāhma: Brahma Purana, Padma Purana
Surya: Brahma Vaivarta Purana
Agni: Agni Purana
Śaiva: Shiva Purana, Linga Purana, Skanda Purana, Varaha Purana, Vāmana Purana, Kūrma Purana, Matsya Purana, Mārkandeya Purana, Bhavishya Purana, Brahmānda Purana
Vaiṣṇava: Vishnu Purana, Bhagavata Purana, Nāradeya Purana, Garuda Purana, Vayu Purana, Varaha Purana"
Ludo Rocher (1986), The Puranas, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, ISBN 978-3447025225, pages 12-13, 134-156, 203-210
Jedster
Well-Known Member
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
A few more things: "Except the views of Hindu philosopher Madhva, it is not seen as place of eternal damnation within Hinduism."
Naraka - Wikipedia
Madhva was a strong theists, so he reserved eternal hell for those who did not worship his deity (Krishna).
Here is the reason for proliferation of hells in Hinduism (Naraka (Hinduism) - Wikipedia).
"Economic: The last Hindu function for Hell-based reincarnations is the text Preta khanda in the Garuda Purana used by Hindu priests during Śrāddha rituals. During these rituals, the soul of a dying or deceased individual is given safe passage into the next life. This ritual is directly related to the economic prosperity of Hindu priests and their ability to “save” the dying soul from a hellish reincarnation through gifts given on behalf of the deceased to the priest performing the ritual. With each gift given, crimes committed during the deceased's life are forgiven and the next life is progressively improved."
The best way to avoid hell is a 'Gau-dana", giving a cow in charity to the priest. A cow may cost something like USD 500, but the priest will generally accept a lesser amount and certify that a cow has been given to him. How much a priest will accept will depend on the economic status of his client.
AND lastly, you can't change your family priests at that place of pilgrimage, because his family may have been serving your family for 10 generations. He will have records of your family's visits to that place of pilgrimage, the signatures of your forefathers or (if they were not educated, then) their thumb impressions.
Genealogical records of these priests are admissible evidence in Indian courts.
800 year old record
300 year old record
300 year old record
The priest (mustachiod) and his clients. Perhaps two brothers.
Pandas (Priests) of Haridwar digitise records of death
Naraka - Wikipedia
Madhva was a strong theists, so he reserved eternal hell for those who did not worship his deity (Krishna).
Here is the reason for proliferation of hells in Hinduism (Naraka (Hinduism) - Wikipedia).
"Economic: The last Hindu function for Hell-based reincarnations is the text Preta khanda in the Garuda Purana used by Hindu priests during Śrāddha rituals. During these rituals, the soul of a dying or deceased individual is given safe passage into the next life. This ritual is directly related to the economic prosperity of Hindu priests and their ability to “save” the dying soul from a hellish reincarnation through gifts given on behalf of the deceased to the priest performing the ritual. With each gift given, crimes committed during the deceased's life are forgiven and the next life is progressively improved."
The best way to avoid hell is a 'Gau-dana", giving a cow in charity to the priest. A cow may cost something like USD 500, but the priest will generally accept a lesser amount and certify that a cow has been given to him. How much a priest will accept will depend on the economic status of his client.
AND lastly, you can't change your family priests at that place of pilgrimage, because his family may have been serving your family for 10 generations. He will have records of your family's visits to that place of pilgrimage, the signatures of your forefathers or (if they were not educated, then) their thumb impressions.
Genealogical records of these priests are admissible evidence in Indian courts.
Pandas (Priests) of Haridwar digitise records of death
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MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Currently I believe that evil people go to hell but they are supplied their happiness by non-violent cop-doctors. In order to be happy with out becoming sadsiticated God must help everyone.
dfnj
Well-Known Member
Why does it matter so much to you that people have to "earn the right" to be in Heaven? If everyone gets into Heaven to experience eternal bliss then why do you care one way or the other. If you are experiencing eternal bliss at the same time as someone you think is not worthy then it should makes no difference to you. You are too busy experiencing bliss to think about anything else! Maybe you being selfish in thinking how hard you have worked your whole life at being a good person and someone else is getting a freebie. Maybe if you were a little more open minded, generous, and loving then maybe you would choose a different perspective on how other people should be judged.
The mother of serial killer still loves her child no matter what. This is because no matter how evil her child may be, the child is part of his/her mother's soul and a mother will never stop loving her child. I think the same is true with God. God loves each of us so deeply everyone is considered to be divine and sacred no matter what. This includes Hitler and Stalin which may seem very strange but these two boys are not your child! If you had Hitler or Stalin's parents and life choices then maybe you would have turned out much worse! Only God knows the circumstances and choices presented to Hitler and Stalin. Maybe they had no choice but to be who they were meant to be. I think people are way to quick to judge other people's short comings against a ruler of absolute perfection. You don't know what people are dealing with unless you walk in their shoes.
I don't believe any of us has free-will. There is no way any of us can get through life without be forced to choose the lesser of two evils at some point. Every presidential election is proof of what I am saying. And once we forced down a dark path very rarely does anyone step in and give us better choices to make. Unless each of us has total control over our list of choices we get to choose from in life then life is not a true morality test. Unless each of us was born having omnipotent powers so we are able to choose our life choices, then we will always be forced to choose evil at some point. For some people it's a very bad downward cascading slope of choices. So I don't think people who make bad choices are entirely responsible.
I think regardless of our life choices everyone is sacred. And everyone is divine. Each of us was created having God given imperfections. Not everyone is capable of living up to your standards of who gets into Heaven. But why should someone be held to your standard when they were given a different set of imperfections and circumstances you would never dream of facing. God knows all our choices before we even make them because they are all based on our imperfections. So what exactly is God going to judge after we die? God says, "Yep, you have imperfections." There is no point in judging us. God knows we do not have omnipotent powers. God knows everyone is born with God given imperfections.
I don't blame God for all the evil in the World. I choose to love God in spite of all the evil and all my own imperfections. I am not asking God to create me with omnipotent powers so I am capable of fulfilling all my infinite needs and desires. And I do not judge God for other people's imperfections and resulting evil. Unless God created each person you are judging as perfect without any imperfections, essentially having omnipotent powers, then what exactly are you judging in other person who are just doing the best they can facing their own God given imperfections and circumstances?
I think taking the opposite point of view is closer to being God-like. I choose to still see people as being sacred and divine regardless of their acts of evil as best I can. I am not capable of fully loving evil people as good as God because I am doing the best I can based on my own abilities limited by my own imperfections.
Now I can imagine people will react to reading this by saying the only "right" way is to dole out sadistic punishment for people who are evil. And I imagine people reading this will react by claiming what I am really saying is everyone gets a free pass to do whatever they want. Please listen carefully: ABSOLUTE NOT! If you want justice you have to find it in a secular court of law. If evil upsets then fight evil. You fight evil by coming up with ways for allowing evil people to make better choices.
The problems we are all facing with the untold amounts of suffering in our lives is people are being forced to choose the lesser of two evils all the time! People don't want to choose evil. The problem with choosing evil is everyone knows the consequences for choosing evil generally lead to more suffering. Of course there are mental retards and sociopaths in the World who choose evil regardless of consequence. But most people I think prefer to live their lives not at the expense of others. At least this has been my experience. But I am generally much more forgiving than the "make them suffer for all eternity" crowd of hateful sadists quoting their bibles and messengers who were even more hateful and sadistic.
Just remember the next time you judge someone to the candle of God you are not much better if not worse!
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dfnj
Well-Known Member
Assuming Hell exists and people are cast down into it, I think the first thing that happens to someone in Hell is they are given omnipotent powers. Now at first this may sound like a good thing. But after having sex with two chicks two million times you will become bored. Your mind has a very limited capacity for imagination. Very quickly you will exhaust all your own personal creativity. You will then be seeking out God with humility begging him to let you into the gates of Heaven so you can experience eternal bliss and put an end to your suffering from boredom. And God will let you in because God is not a sadist even though the sadists prefer God to be one.
MonkeyFire
Well-Known Member
Hell exist below the earth. But maybe limited gratitude is what they want. The first thing they see is their temptation (the hellp).
Because I've been doing it forever.
Only if your impassive.
Only because I have faith.
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CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Hell doesn't need to be real to serve its purpose of getting people to not "sin" against the rules of which ever religion or which ever God. It is the threat of living beyond this life and having to suffer the consequences for having lived an "evil" life. But, where is the line where a person is too evil to go to the good place, the heavenly realm, or to be sent to the bad place? I've heard the stories of having to walk the razors edge or having your good deeds put on a scale and weighed against your bad deeds. Whatever it is, the message to people is to do, mostly, good deeds in this life.
But, what I like about what you said about being "bored". I think that also works as to how selfish people as compared to selfless people feel inside. A life of living for oneself, being greedy, lustful and all those things, as far as I can tell, have never truly satisfied anyone. They still feel empty inside... a kind of hell. Whereas, a person helping others and doing good has an inner feeling of something greater than themselves. But, I think that feeling or inner glow also depends on the persons beliefs of a God. And since those can vary, is that feeling of a connection with a God real? I know it feels good and real. And the emptiness for being a greedy, non-caring person feels real too. But, is it a religion telling us we should feel that way?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I just love that verse....
So do you believe only a 'few' will get to heaven?
If so, then the hundred-dollar question is who are the few?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Thanks for the full disclosure. I am certain there is an afterlife, and I believe that based upon what my religion teaches as well as other books I have read on the afterlife. However, like you, I cannot claim any specifics about the afterlife.
I do appreciate that you have answered the question I asked because most people didn't. However, that is par for the course on these forums.
I believe that God is able to prevent suffering since God is All-Powerful, but God does not prevent it for two reasons: (1) Free will decisions people make causes much of the suffering and God does not interfere with free will, and (2) People can benefit from suffering.
So in a sense I agree with you; God is making something positive 'for humans' out of the suffering because people can benefit from suffering.
I believe that God is Loving and Just and that God wants people to be happy. However, it is not Loving to allow some people to do horrific things to other people and it is not Just to not punish them for their acts. How that punishment is doled out is another matter, that would be God's call, not ours.
According to some afterlife accounts I have read that come from those who claim to have experienced the afterlife or those who have communicated with departed spirits, there is a kind of purgatory where people go before they go to Heaven or Hell, kind of like a waiting room. In that place, souls from higher levels come to help those who are confused and want help. Not everyone wants help, so some souls will eventually go to Hell, which is a choice. I do not believe that Heaven and Hell are 'places' we go to but rather they are states of the soul, and they exist in this earthly life as well as in the afterlife.
It is also possible that souls will experience the pain and suffering that they doled out to others and that might be the only punishment they receive, I don't know. Conversely, those who were kind to others will experience joy and happiness as the benefits from that kindness.
I do not believe in anything like that and I agree such punishments are inappropriate and unnecessary.
According to my religion Hell is distance from God but what that actually equates to is anyone's best guess.
I also do not believe that any soul is 'doomed' to eternal torment, but I am not sure if there are any 'second chances' either. I believe that we reap what we sowed in this life in the sense that after we die, we will be whoever we became in this life; no more or no less. Thus if we do not acquire spiritual qualities (which just means good character) in this life, we won't be able to acquire them after we die. That does not mean we cannot make progress in the afterlife, but I believe we will only progress by the mercy of God and the prayers of others, not by our free will choices and actions that ensue.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Well said.
Why would a Loving God force people to go where they do not want to go?
I believe we all make our own choices.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
Well said.
Why would a Loving God force people to go where they do not want to go?
I believe we all make our own choices.
Well, from the Christian perspective, I don't know anyone who wants to get tossed into the Lake of Fire. The unbelieving don't want God, but neither do they want to be in the Lake of Fire.
The 'loving God' of the Bible will force them there. Not that it will take much 'force'.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Not just the God of Bible but any Abrahamic God. You don't have the choice of not believing.