Does God need excuses?

[Aupmanyav]

Well there you go... "fictional made up crap."

She means what others say is "fictional made-up crap" and what she says is "God's own truth". She says that not just for Christians but for all other religions, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.

They are the bats of night.

So, we are "bats of the night" while you use what materialists have created every moment of your life. Where would humanity have been without materialism? Do you want to revert to stone age?

Well now you've seen it. I only care for the reasons I gave a couple of posts ago. I care that millions of people have been duped.

Bahaollah did not provide any proof for what he said except the vision of the 'heavenly maiden'. One could say that he was also duping the Iranians.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you are thinking Christianwise, as in original sin. Humans have a noble spiritual side too. People today do indeed act as if they are animals, because over time, they have lost the original spirit of their religion and believe in dogma and doctrine, not righteous acts for the most part. Things like anti-abortion has made some follow a amoral leader.

Alas! that humanity is completely submerged in imitations and unrealities notwithstanding the truth of divine religion has ever remained the same. Superstitions have obscured the fundamental reality, the world is darkened and the light of religion is not apparent. This darkness is conducive to differences and dissensions; rites and dogmas are many and various; therefore discord has arisen among the religious systems whereas religion is for the unification of mankind. True religion is the source of love and agreement amongst men, the cause of the development of praiseworthy qualities; but the people are holding to the counterfeit and imitation, negligent of the reality which unifies; so they are bereft and deprived of the radiance of religion. They follow superstitions inherited from their fathers and ancestors. To such an extent has this prevailed that they have taken away the heavenly light of divine truth and sit in the darkness of imitations and imaginations. That which was meant to be conducive to life has become the cause of death; that which should have been an evidence of knowledge is now a proof of ignorance; that which was a factor in the sublimity of human nature has proved to be its degradation. Therefore the realm of the religionist has gradually narrowed and darkened and the sphere of the materialist has widened and advanced; for the religionist has held to imitation and counterfeit, neglecting and discarding holiness and the sacred reality of religion. When the sun sets it is the time for bats to fly. They come forth because they are creatures of the night. When the lights of religion become darkened the materialists appear. They are the bats of night. The decline of religion is their time of activity; they seek the shadows when the world is darkened and clouds have spread over it.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 71

That is a really good quote, I don't recall having read it before. It certainly describes the conditions of today's world.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose.”

I do not need Bahaollah to get a clear understanding of Hinduism, something that he himself had no understanding of.

 

[Truthseeker]

That is a really good quote, I don't recall having read it before. It certainly describes the conditions of today's world.

Tony pointed me to a better way to find quotes like this online. I think you know it already: Ninestar Solutions. This site has a section to help find quotes like that one. I found just now it worked better for me than Ocean 2.0.

I hope the quote helps.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not need Bahaollah to get a clear understanding of Hinduism, something that he himself had no understanding of.

I don't think that Shoghi Effendi was referring to Hinduism, I think He was referring to the Abrahamic faiths.
Baha'u'llah had an understanding of Hinduism, He just did not write about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tony pointed me to a better way to find quotes like this online. I think you know it already: Ninestar Solutions. This site has a section to help find quotes like that one. I found just now it worked better for me than Ocean 2.0.

I hope the quote helps.

I just saved it in my directory in my Religion folder.

 

[Truthseeker]

So, we are "bats of the night" while you use what materialists have created every moment of your life. Where would humanity have been without materialism? Do you want to revert to stone age?

Bahá’u’lláh has announced that no matter how far the world of humanity may advance in material civilization, it is nevertheless in need of spiritual virtues and the bounties of God. The spirit of man is not illumined and quickened through material sources. It is not resuscitated by investigating phenomena of the world of matter.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 288

 

[Aupmanyav]

"He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy."
Baha’u’llah foresaw and warned about WWI and WWII in His Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I.

He did nothing like that for Covid-19.
Adn what died Kaiser Wilhelm do with the "Tablet" (sic.)? Throw it in the waste paper basket. Many cranks write to persons of authorities.

"bounties of God."

I am not aware of any "bounties of God". I am aware of only disasters and diseases. Kindly enlighten.

I don't think that Shoghi Effendi was referring to Hinduism, I think He was referring to the Abrahamic faiths.
Baha'u'llah had an understanding of Hinduism, He just did not write about it.

What makes you say so? He wrote thousands of "tablets" (sic.), why did he not write about Hinduism or Buddhism? What Shoghi wrote is hardly the issue.

They could have prevented WWI and WWII if they had listened to Baha'u'llah's injunctions.

Peace and brotherhood is not a copy-right of Bahaollah. Have Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha, Mahavira, not talked about it? You make it as if Bahaollah invented peace and brotherhood.
If the all-powerful, merciful God sends messengers and it has no effect on what happens in the world. WWI and II, and other wars happened after the passage of these so-claimed messengers. That shows the non-existence of God/Allah himself, what to talk of messengers?

 

[Truthseeker]

Well there you go... "fictional made up crap." But that's not an official Baha'i answer is it. That's the big, huge problem with the Baha'i Faith. They make too many things in the Bible "symbolic". Which to me is really saying what you just said... it's all made up fictional crap. I think I'm even nicer. I say people made up legends and myths about their prophets and Gods. But Baha'is need some of the things to be true. So they have to pretend they really respect and believe in all the major religions and their Scriptures. I see no evidence that they do... Except some fictional Christianity and fictional Buddhism and fictional Hinduism that they have invented.

The risen Jesus doesn't mean much to a lot of people. But to most Christians, him rising from the dead is the most important part of the story. He conquer sin. He conquered Satan. And he conquered death. To you, that's all BS, so of course it's not important.

The central figures of our faith, when you come down to it, didn't really say that much about the Bible. Just some key analysis of certain passages, and that mostly by 'Abdu'l-Baha because until then there were very few people of a Christian background or Christians to talk to. The world of Baha'u'llah was dominated by Muslims all around Him.

'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi said all we need to know and nothing more. What we may theorize individually is not important. Most of the Writings were not about other religions anyway, but a Revelation from God about what we need to do individually and collectively to live righteously and grow spiritually. And I shouldn't forget unify the world.

It is up to you to decide for yourself independently what this revelation from God means to you. Don't get confused if we each individually .have different thoughts on Christian concepts, in our faith there's no such thing as heresy. We also may contradict our earlier thoughts at times, or at least appear to. Sort out your own thoughts.

How about also we discuss everybody (I include all us Baha'is here, too) spiritual concepts and not argue about what our views are on previous religions, like Christianity or any religion.

Sorry I am ranting too much.

 

[F1fan]

I have no idea as I am not the Creator.

Well you seem to know everything else. It just doesn't;t make any sense to presume human sram special yet their evolution came after billions of years of other organisms. And humans aren't all that awesome. If there's some perfect ideal eventually why put humans through all this? It's almost like a game to your God. A high school science fair project.

No, I said that you will pick the Pepsi because you chose to pick the Pepsi and God knew you would pick Pepsi. Of you had decided to change your mind and pick Coke at the last second Gid would have known you were going to do that.

God created creation and knew exactly how it would progress. Every step. That includes me choosing Pepsi. I was designed this way, I had no choice. God knew the whole thing before any of it began. There is no alternative future. There's no option for me to choose Coke.

No, God only created the first humans and they were fruitful and multiplied and then there were more and more humans.

there are no first of any species in evolution, and that includes humans. So your claim here is not consistent with your claim that God uses evolution.

No, God did not create Hitler or any other vicious criminals. Their parents created them and then they chose to be the way they were after they were born.

Sorry but your God knew Hitler would be born and murder Jews and let it all happen. Your God's fault. No excuses.

God did not create Hitler, his parents had sex and created him.

Now you're just making another type of excuse. You say it's evolution that caused genetic defects. You say it's not God but parents that create Hitler. But your God KNEW all this as it created the world. So you can't avoid god knowing it was creating the world that would result in Hitler being born and rising to power and murdering Jews. You keep trying to pass the buck, but you keep acknowledging that your God knew all this would happen.

No, God does not create or act out the script, humans do that. God knowing what humans would do does not cause them to do want they do.

Sorry but you say God is timeless, knows how all if the future will unfold, and created all things. The God has the script and plan from the start and there is no freedom for humans to deviate from this script. Hitler couldn't change his mind.

You just want to blame God for everything but it is illogical and I am sick of listening to it. Everything is God’s fault, humans bear no responsibility whatsoever. It is toxic listening to this. Do you see any other believers listening to this bull crap about God?

Nope, you're the one claiming your God created everything, has full knowledge of the future, directed evolution, etc. You are describing an entity that IS responsible for all that exists. And you don't like that it is held accountable for the bad things we observe in its creation. That's your problem.

Dream on. God did not write anyone’s script, people determine their own scripts. You can’t take any responsibility can you?

Sorry but God created all things knowing what will happen, that means there's a script that is set for all time. No alternative choices can happen since God knows.

Everyone knows that humans have choices and make choices, and we are all responsible for our own choices, and the entire justice system is based upon that.

No, your God created all things to happen as it will happen, humans only THINK they are making their own choices.

God did not create any scenario for anyone. You keep making the same excuses for humans and they are not rational. All God did was set the process if evolution into motion. Everything that happened to humans after that was the doing of humans and their responsibility.

God is the creator and knows all that will happen as it creates. There is no way for humans to decide some other option.

I have never heard anything this ridiculous. God made people indecisive.

Right, so the humans were created to be that way and they have no freedom to be decisive unless God says so.

Only if God determined all our fate would that be true, but God’s knowledge does not determine our fate. God knows what humans will do but that has no bearing in their choices.

So if you are claiming that God created the world without knowing all outcomes until AFTER if was all done, then God is gambling on outcomes. And what happens if God knows its creation evolved to include Hitler and other criminals and had regret? Or is God pleased that Hitler included its creation? Either way your God knew Hitler was going to be part of its creation as it created the world, yes?

We are not acting out a script God wrote. Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean God causes what we do to happen. We cause what we do by choosing to do it. I am sorry you still have not grasped this concept, either because you don’t want to or because you can’t understand it.

You have the illusion of free will, but according to your claims our fate is already set. If your best friend is killed driving to get ice cream and cigarettes at 7:23 PM on impulse your God knew it would happen. There's no alternative. Your God knew your friend would die in a car crash at that time on that day for that reason. There's no way to avoid it because your God knew billions of years ago it would happen.

I am done posting to you about this after this post. I won’t even read any more posts on this subject. If you ever want to know what God is really responsible for let me know. We can blame God for that but not for everything.

Well I understand you've trapped yourself and your beliefs are not consistent with themselves or facts. That's why we debate.

But your God knows if you will be reading this even if at this moment you insist you won't. If you read this your God knew you would and despite your free will you had no choice because god knew already what you would do even if you didn't.

 

[CG Didymus]

There was no body in the tomb!
If you want to say Jesus' spirit went somewhere while he was dead, that's one thing, but to claim he didn't physically come back you have to deny what the Bible clearly says

"So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. 8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead."

It wasn't just his spirit wandering around.


Jesus was observed with their eyes and invited others to touch Him, even eating a piece of broiled fish. (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:24-29).

Death had to be conquered. That requires a physical coming back to life.

"The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;"
( not a spirit, but a changed body)

The spirit doesn't die, so what is Paul talking about here?:
"You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies."

It makes no sense to refer to the resurrection of the spirit since the spirit never dies.

Jesus had his wounds for goodness sake! A spirit can't have holes in his hands.

The tomb was empty, thank God.

You'd expect those of us that question the validity of the gospel stories to say that the resurrection story isn't true, but why would a religion that claims all the major religions came from the one true God? By doing that, the Baha'i Faith has shown that it is all talk. It doesn't believe in Christianity and maybe all the other religions. It believes it is the truth from the one God for today. It says it has fulfilled all the Bible prophecies, and all the prophecies in all the other religions, but those prophecies are written the the Bible and in the Scriptures of those other religions that they really don't believe in. So with the Bible, for example, they believe and use the prophecies found in the book of Daniel. But do they believe, literally, anything else in the book of Daniel? Things like his friends being thrown into a furnace and not being burnt to death are the kinds of things that they say can't be literal, because people don't survive being put into a fire. Therefore, that story must be allegorical.

And that's their problem with the resurrection story. People don't come back to life. Therefore, they are fine with Jesus being killed, that they say is real, but not that he rose physically from the dead. The easy solution, regardless of what the NT stories say, is that the story must be allegorical. Like with the son of their prophet saying that the true body of Christ is the believers... and after three days they came to life and started teaching the good things that Jesus had taught them. Thus, bringing life to his cause.

But it's not only Christianity, they have their own "real" version of Hinduism and Buddhism. Buddhism really did teach about the one true God, and so did Hinduism. And both did not teach about reincarnation. So by the time they are done, all the older religions are said to have really taught the truth about God, but people changed those original teachings.

So for me, this is another "screw up" of God. He, supposedly, sent messengers, they told the people the truth, but, with most of them, God didn't have the messenger write his teachings down. His followers wrote them down later. What was God's "excuse" for doing this? He knew that people would get some things wrong. Plus, he knew that people would misinterpret those writings. All this they say... happened with Christianity. And I've asked them time and time again, if that is so... then when did Christianity ever have or teach the truth. Especially with the resurrection... as far as I know the early Church leaders believed in the resurrection. But, what's weird, Baha'is believe in the virgin birth. Something that is also scientifically impossible and something that could easily be said to be allegorical. But they don't.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, we don't make them fit Baha'u'llah, they either fit or they don't.

And have you read the Maitreya prophecies? And you think they fit? With no fudging or anything? Even with prophecies in Revelation Baha'is do some manipulation to make them work. Six things are made to be 1260 years. All six are different events that started and ended at different times. Yet, for Baha'is, they are all made to start in the year 621AD and end in 1844. Some Baha'is try their best to explain why that is. Others just ignore it and say that prophecies aren't the main proof. But still, if Baha'is say that these prophesies are true and have been fulfilled, they should be able to back that up.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry I am ranting too much.

No, not at all. It good to hear what you have to say.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, God only created the first humans and they were fruitful and multiplied and then there were more and more humans.

So at each change to another species, it wasn't some random mutation, but God created that new species? They why didn't he just create the new species and all the other species from the beginning?

there are no first of any species in evolution, and that includes humans. So your claim here is not consistent with your claim that God uses evolution.

So God encoded things into all living things that would cause them to change into another species? Hmmm? I'd hate to be the mother that thought she was going to give birth to a dog or cat, and instead it was a horse or an elephant.

God created creation and knew exactly how it would progress. Every step. That includes me choosing Pepsi. I was designed this way, I had no choice. God knew the whole thing before any of it began. There is no alternative future. There's no option for me to choose Coke.

If I wrote a screenplay and it was made into a movie, if I had a character get in a car and get in an accident, then I'm the one responsible for that scene. If the director comes and tells me to change that scene and rewrite it with a different outcome, I do that. Of course, they can rewrite a movie without me if they bought the rights. But nobody can rewrite God's script. I agree. God made you in such a way to make the choices you make.

Or, God is not in total control and has no clue what's going to happen. Or we have no clue what is the ultimate reality. And we're just making it up as we go... building on the ideas of the past about who and what is God and what we doing here and what is our purpose. And it's not like the Baha'i Faith is all that bad... But, for me, they do have some issues.

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry but you say God is timeless, knows how all if the future will unfold, and created all things. The God has the script and plan from the start and there is no freedom for humans to deviate from this script.

I posted my last post before I read your whole post. Yeah, he wrote the script. Like if I pray to him and ask for something to happen... is he going to erase what he original had planned? Or, was that part of the original script. To me, it just seems like God changed the outcome?

 

[CG Didymus]

Because Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures. I think that is a good enough reason, don't you?

Addressing the Muslims and calling them foolish, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

Testimony of what? Creation, the flood, the parting of the sea, Moses' cane turning into a snake, Jesus walking on water etc. Greatest testimony? No, Baha'is make it the greatest fictional story that some foolish people take as being literally true.

 

[CG Didymus]

God does not care if there are troublemakers in the world as it does not affect God in any way.

If God doesn't care, he's useless. Any other Gods up there that have a little more compassion and hands on approach?

Humans were created with the capacity to make themselves better, God does not have to create them better.
The whole purpose of this life is to better ourselves so if God created us better there would be no reason to live life on earth.

Yeah sure, theoretically. How many kids are born into a place and situation where there is little or no hope? I still remember the picture of a Guatemalan father and daughter drowned in a river trying to sneak into Texas. He brought her all that way so she could have a chance at a better life. Thanks God.

 

[Trailblazer]

But your God knows if you will be reading this even if at this moment you insist you won't.

God knew I would not read the post but rather I would skip to the very last line to see If you took me up on my offer, and that is exactly what I did, since what I choose to do is identical with what God knows I will do.

I said: "If you ever want to know what God is really responsible for let me know."

I see you didn't want to know so I am moving on to answer CG's posts. Let me know if you ever change your mind.

 

[Truthseeker]

If God doesn't care, he's useless. Any other Gods up there that have a little more compassion and hands on approach?

I don't think she meant it that way. He does care about how it affects the world, according to our Writings, but it does not affect God as she said. People would like a more hands on approach, but that would take away our free will, and when we exercise our free will, there will be consequences, and God doesn't usually shield us from those consequences because otherwise we wouldn't learn from our mistakes both individually and collectively. Right now, collectively we will learn from the consequences of being of ignoring the growing signs of climate change that wreaks havoc on the world and also not acting together on this. In the future, I predict, we will as a consequence learn from this and act collectively on climate change.

 

[Trailblazer]

And have you read the Maitreya prophecies? And you think they fit? With no fudging or anything? Even with prophecies in Revelation Baha'is do some manipulation to make them work. Six things are made to be 1260 years. All six are different events that started and ended at different times. Yet, for Baha'is, they are all made to start in the year 621AD and end in 1844. Some Baha'is try their best to explain why that is. Others just ignore it and say that prophecies aren't the main proof. But still, if Baha'is say that these prophesies are true and have been fulfilled, they should be able to back that up.

No, I have not read those prophecies and I don't care about them. As I have been saying for years to Christians, anyone can interpret the Bible and make the Bible mean whatever they want to believe. The same would hold true for any prophecies of any other religion. So if I try to explain how the prophecies were fulfilled you will just tell me I am wrong and they weren't fulfilled, and thus the beat goes on.

Prophecies are not the best way to know if Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be because as Truthseeker9 said, they can be interpreted in many different ways, so if people don't want to believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ/coming of the Messiah, they can always find a.way to say that the prophecy means something else. These are the real excuses, and they are nothing but excuses to keep waiting for Jesus forever, or in your case excuses to keep sitting on the fence between Christianity and the Baha'i Faith forever. I cannot say what the consequences will be to your soul if you die sitting in that fence, only God knows that.

Meanwhile, Baha'u'llah gave us explicit instructions as to how to recognize the truth of His claims.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

One, two, three. Baha'u'llah never said to look at any Bible prophecies or prophecies from other religions, and Baha'u'llah never said to look at the religions of the past and try to see how they "fit in" with the Baha'i Faith.

But maybe your goal is not to know whether the Baha'i Faith is the truth or not. If that is not your goal, carry on as you have been, talking about the religions of the past.