Does God need excuses?

[F1fan]

Man was created good. Everything that happened after that falls on man.

There had to be at least one bad person. Otherwise all human endeavors would be good because all there are is good people. Where did all these bad people come from?

And humans didn't create genetic defects. You can't blame humans for that.

 

[Trailblazer]

So even in a "perfect" Baha'i world, murder is still expected to happen. All because we were given a lower nature. By whom? Who would design people that way and expect anything different from humans?

God.

 

[CG Didymus]

What mistakes in logic have you pointed out? Why is free will an excuse? Who needs an excuse? Why do they need an excuse?

If you cannot answer these questions it will be just like every other atheist who deflects and obfuscates so as not to get egg on his face.

How do you think that will hold up in a court of law?
Judge! I couldn't help myself! I had to murder my wife because I needed the insurance money and God did not stop me from murdering my wife so it is all God's fault. I am innocent and God is guilty!
C'mon gimmie a break.

Any murder that happens is, by definition, one that humans were able to prevent because they have free will to choose and that is why humans are accountable for murders in courts of law.

No, he's guilty and God could be an accessory... or maybe not. Not in a Baha'i world.

Judge, "So God, you knew he was going to do this?" "Yes, your Honor." "And you knew he had purchased a gun for the expressed reason that he was going to shoot his wife?" "Yes, your Honor." "Do you have anything to say for yourself?" "Yes, it wasn't my fault. I designed him with the ability to choose. He chose wrong. What was I supposed to do? Not give him free will to be an idiot?" Judge, "I guess your right. After all, you're God. You can't make wrong decisions. You're free to go."

 

[rational experiences]

I have no idea what you said, but this is my favorite part.
Either you are smoking something really strong or English isn't your language?

I don't smoke at all.

 

[F1fan]

I know that too. How can an infallible God ever need excuses?

Given that you're making excuses you're suggesting God is fallible.

 

[Trailblazer]

"God gave man free will"? And how is that working out for him?

It does not need to work out for God because God is unaffected by what humans choose to do.

 

[CG Didymus]

That could only be the case if God took over the free will of every human and imposed His will upon every human on earth

And what do people in society do? They make laws to prevent people from doing certain things. Why did they have to do that? Because God said he would judge the wicked and pour out his wrath upon them, but he doesn't. Only in make believe stories did God do that. Are any of us free to do as we wish? No. We had to fix the flaw in God's design.

 

[Trailblazer]

Given that you're making excuses you're suggesting God is fallible.

Given I am not making excuses that suggests that God is infallible.

 

[CG Didymus]

It does not need to work out for God because God is unaffected by what humans choose to do.

Unaffected? What about when someone prays to him? Maybe then? But then, what if a Trinitarian prays to him. Surely the real God doesn't listen to them. But anyway, I thought God was compassionate? I guess not. He's invisible and is unaffected by what we do. And we're supposed to love and worship him? For what?

 

[rational experiences]

But again, Baha'is have put the Trinitarian God on trial too... And pronounced him not real. Oh, and the Jesus part of that Trinity? Baha'is have pronounced him physically dead and not God.

All humans physically die.

If all adults died without sex in the same one moment as all humans die then no lying satanic science theists would exist as just a human.

All humans today never their own two parents came from sperm ovary baby conception.

Which human science cannot use in any thesis.

They know they can't so they try to preclude that a God created the first two humans in a theory yet he quotes first two humans already present in the words of his theory.

In human life human law speaking on behalf of humans harmed by humans who changing natural as a law said lying is a criminal in science.

Why human law was implemented on behalf of god by humans living naturally. Actually. After witness of blood unnaturally leeching out of a healthy human body.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't want to ague about this. You believe in the bodily resurrection and I don't.
I don't believe the resurrection stories depict any real events so it does not matter to me if they say that Jesus had holes in His hands.

Again, why do Baha'is say they believe in the NT?

 

[Trailblazer]

And what do people in society do? They make laws to prevent people from doing certain things. Why did they have to do that?

To dole out justice and maintain order in the world.

 

[F1fan]

Free will is what led to the murder and every court of law knows that a human is responsible.

Free Will, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System - Law Firm of John P. Guidry II, P.A.

Why should God do what a human can do himself, prevent the murder?

Because God knows about the murder ahead of time and makes no effort to stop it. So God could be arrested and convicted of conspiracy to murder.

Just because you believe that God is responsible for everything and humans bear no responsibility whatsoever does not mean that is actually the case.

Since you claim God knows everything that will happen that makes God complicit with all crimes IF God does nothing to intervene. This is based on YOUR claims this far. You can't avoid your God's complicity in all crimes through history. Your God is worse than Hitler. Enjoy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Again, why does Baha'is say they believe in the NT?

Because Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures. I think that is a good enough reason, don't you?

Addressing the Muslims and calling them foolish, Baha'u'llah wrote:

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

 

[F1fan]

No, God did not do that. God created them to be messy or unmessy, as they so choose.

BUT your God knows they will be messy. God knows their choices before they exist, yet it creates Creation this way anyway.

No, God did not create them that way. God did not create troublemakers, troublemakers made themselves into troublemakers by choosing to make trouble.

Yes it did because according to you God knew they would cause trouble as it created the world. If it didn't want troublemakers it would have created better humans.

You keep forgetting you believe God knows the future.

Many people are good at cleaning up the kitchen and many aren't.

The many that aren't exist because they were created.

Why should God make people into who they are when people can make themselves into what they want to be? In other words, why should God impose His will upon humans?

But your God knows exactly what the outcome will be of what it creates, so if it doesn't want messy people it would create clean people. You don't seem to have any understanding of accountability.

 

[F1fan]

What mistakes in logic have you pointed out? Why is free will an excuse? Who needs an excuse? Why do they need an excuse?

Because if God knows what his creation is going to do before they exist then they have no freedom of thought. God knows Hitler will rise to power and murder 6 million Jews, and goes ahead with creating the world. God knows before Hitler is ever born that 6 million Jews will be murdered by his government.

God knew according to you. God wasn't caught off guard by a sudden change of mind by Hitler to kill Jews. Hitler exited in your God's plan, design, and creation and it knew before it happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

But your God knows exactly what the outcome will be of what it creates, so if it doesn't want messy people it would create clean people. You don't seem to have any understanding of accountability.

You are the one who has no understanding if accountability.
Humans are fully accountable for everything they do because God gave them free will.

There is absolutely no correlation between God's foreknowledge and evil acts. The cause is humans choosing to do evil because they choose to not follow the Law of God.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[Trailblazer]

Because if God knows what his creation is going to do before they exist then they have no freedom of thought. God knows Hitler will rise to power and murder 6 million Jews, and goes ahead with creating the world. God knows before Hitler is ever born that 6 million Jews will be murdered by his government.

God knew according to you. God wasn't caught off guard by a sudden change of mind by Hitler to kill Jews. Hitler exited in your God's plan, design, and creation and it knew before it happened.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[Trailblazer]

God knew they would cause trouble as it created the world. If it didn't want troublemakers it would have created better humans.

God does not care if there are troublemakers in the world as it does not affect God in any way.

Humans were created with the capacity to make themselves better, God does not have to create them better.
The whole purpose of this life is to better ourselves so if God created us better there would be no reason to live life on earth.

 

[F1fan]

And are any humans genetically "perfect"?

Perfect isn't a realistic word. Healthy is. But this still doesn't dilute the harsh reality of many who have genetic defects and suffer to varying degrees with this reality. I happen to be one of the fortunate people with exceptionally good health. My good luck makes me wonder that much more why a three year child can be diagnosed with Leukemia and die less than two years later. That happened to the daughter of a client. It's a brutal realization when you know the people, and the child. We live in a universe that is completely indifferent to right and wrong.

If they ever were, what happened and when? But of course for God believer, he has to be perfect and everything he does has to be perfect. For Christians, they blame humans and the devil. Baha'is have no devil, so all can say is that humans screwed it up.

Right. It's an ironic trap they volunteer into, and then can't justify what they believe. It truly is a religious trap, and there is no logical way out of it. It is inevitably their choice of inner turmoil.