Does God need excuses?

[F1fan]

I never said that Hitler was part of the God's purpose.

Then why did God create him?

WWI and WWII could have been avoided if the kings and rulers had listened to Baha'u'llah in His proclamations.

No they couldn't. God knew these wars would happen as it created the world. There was no alternative history according to your claims. These wars happened because God created people the way it did. And it knew the wars would happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why did God create him?

God did not create Hitler, his parents created him and then he became the monster that he was after he was born of his own free will.

No they couldn't. God knew these wars would happen as it created the world. There was no alternative history according to your claims. These wars happened because God created people the way it did. And it knew the wars would happen.

They could have prevented WWI and WWII if they had listened to Baha'u'llah's injunctions.
These wars happened because people chose to be the way they were. God had nothing to do with it, nothing.
God knew that wars would happen but God did not cause wars to happen. Humans caused wars to happen.

 

[CG Didymus]

Romans 1:17
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Faith in what? Paul takes a long time to get there. He goes through the whole process of explaining that people in the Old Testament were justified by believing in the promise....that God would do what he promised to do, which was send a messiah.

And finally in Romans 4:22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

It's not optional to believe in the resurrection.
Without him being raised we would not be justified.

If Jesus was not raised physically then why the empty tomb? But this and all other verses the Baha'is disagree with they just say that those verses allegorical. Also in Acts it says that he showed himself alive. It doesn't matter to Baha'is. They want the physical body of Jesus dead and gone.

 

[Trailblazer]

So God creates all the dinosaurs first over millions of years, and they go extinct and then hominids rise, and eventually after more millions of years humans end up evolving. And what purpose is all this for your God's absurd plan? If humans are so damn special why all the drama with hundreds of millions of yers with other organisms before finally getting around to making humans?

I have no idea as I am not the Creator.

Great, so you admit you have no free will to decide to have Coke at the last second.

No, I said that you will pick the Pepsi because you chose to pick the Pepsi and God knew you would pick Pepsi. Of you had decided to change your mind and pick Coke at the last second Gid would have known you were going to do that.

Hitler was a human, and God creates all humans, yes?

If yes, then as God creates Hitler and knows;s what Hitler will do in life then God deliberately created Hitler and all other vicious criminals through history. What purpose did Hitler serve when your God created him?

No, God only created the first humans and they were fruitful and multiplied and then there were more and more humans.

No, God did not create Hitler or any other vicious criminals. Their parents created them and then they chose to be the way they were after they were born.

So God knew what it was doing when it created hitler, and that makes God complicit.

God did not create Hitler, his parents had sex and created him.

Because God knew their choices from the start. The people are just living out the script your God has created.

No, God does not create or act out the script, humans do that. God knowing what humans would do does not cause them to do want they do.

You just want to blame God for everything but it is illogical and I am sick of listening to it. Everything is God’s fault, humans bear no responsibility whatsoever. It is toxic listening to this. Do you see any other believers listening to this bull crap about God?

You have no free will. You are just living the script that God has already created. You have no choices.

Dream on. God did not write anyone’s script, people determine their own scripts. You can’t take any responsibility can you?

Everyone knows that humans have choices and make choices, and we are all responsible for our own choices, and the entire justice system is based upon that.

God created them with a purpose. God is the creator. the people have no choice but to act out the scenario your God created. You keep making the same excuses and they are not rational or consistent. You can't have it both ways. our God cannot push the first domino and not be accountable when the plane blows up. It created it that way. It's accountable.

God did not create any scenario for anyone. You keep making the same excuses for humans and they are not rational. All God did was set the process if evolution into motion. Everything that happened to humans after that was the doing of humans and their responsibility.

And God designed their indecision. It's all in the script that God created and knows will happen. You have no choice to fool God.

I have never heard anything this ridiculous. God made people indecisive.

Humans don't have a choice. God knows what they will do. There's no freedom. Humans THINK they are making their minds up, but according to you God knows what will happen and the humans have no choice from that script.

Only if God determined all our fate would that be true, but God’s knowledge does not determine our fate. God knows what humans will do but that has no bearing in their choices.

We are not acting out a script God wrote. Just because God knows what we will do that does not mean God causes what we do to happen. We cause what we do by choosing to do it. I am sorry you still have not grasped this concept, either because you don’t want to or because you can’t understand it.

I am done posting to you about this after this post. I won’t even read any more posts on this subject. If you ever want to know what God is really responsible for let me know. We can blame God for that but not for everything.

 

[CG Didymus]

Man was created good.

All humans have two natures, and we all have free will, so we can choose to act according to one of our two natures, our spiritual or higher nature and our material or lower nature. By our choices and ensuing behavior, we differentiate ourselves, and we wind up on a continuum between good and evil.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

Created good? And then you say God created man with two natures. And that lower nature was good too? People cannot from being created good to all of a sudden choosing to do evil. It had to be in the design. And that is exactly what Baha'is say... People were created with two natures if they choose the lower nature, they'll do some bad, bad things. And God knew they would. Yet, he created them with two natures and let them choose between the two? And you say it's not God's fault for designing people with that lower, prone to evil nature and giving them the free will to choose that lower nature whenever they wanted to, and God knew that they would? But it's not his fault?

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't matter to Baha'is. They want the physical body of Jesus dead and gone.

That's hilarious. Why would we care about the physical body of Jesus?
I don't care if Jesus rose from the dead or not. It has no bearing on who Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Created good? And then you say God created man with two natures. And that lower nature was good too? People cannot from being created good to all of a sudden choosing to do evil. It had to be in the design. And that is exactly what Baha'is say... People were created with two natures if they choose the lower nature, they'll do some bad, bad things. And God knew they would. Yet, he created them with two natures and let them choose between the two? And you say it's not God's fault for designing people with that lower, prone to evil nature and giving them the free will to choose that lower nature whenever they wanted to, and God knew that they would? But it's not his fault?

Why would be what people choose to do be God's fault? God gave man free will to choose so if man chooses to act according to his lower nature it is man's fault. God bears zero responsibility.

What God knew is unrelated to what human s choose to do. God just happens to be all-knowing because that us an attribute of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't want to ague about this. You believe in the bodily resurrection and I don't.
I don't believe the resurrection stories depict any real events so it does not matter to me if they say that Jesus had holes in His hands.

Then what is the Baha'i answer? Why was the tomb empty? If only the spirit of Jesus rose, the body should have still been there. Where did it go?

 

[CG Didymus]

That's hilarious. Why would we care about the physical body of Jesus?
I don't care if Jesus rose from the dead or not. It has no bearing on who Baha'u'llah.

You sure seem to care... and seem to prefer his physical body is dead.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then what is the Baha'i answer? Why was the tomb empty? If only the spirit of Jesus rose, the body should have still been there. Where did it go?

There is no Baha'i answer. My answer is that it was just a story, so there was never any empty tomb. In short, it is all fictional, made up crap. If you want to agonize over this till the day you die you will just be wasting the only life you have to get it right. I'd hate to see that happen over something this inconsequential. Who cares if Jesus rose from the dead? Why would it matter? I started a thread about that a while back.

Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

 

[Trailblazer]

You sure seem to care... and seem to prefer his physical body is dead.

Where the hell did you ever get the idea that I care? His physical body is dead even if He rose from the dead because physical bodies are mortal.

Do you believe that will make Christianity the one true religion is Jesus rose from the dead? Is that why you care so much?

 

[CG Didymus]

Why would be what people choose to do be God's fault? God gave man free will to choose so if man chooses to act according to his lower nature it is man's fault. God bears zero responsibility.

What God knew is unrelated to what human s choose to do. God just happens to be all-knowing because that us an attribute of God.

No, not his fault he's all-knowing and knew that if he designed people with a higher and lower nature that most people would choose their lower nature. Except knowing that, he went ahead and designed humans that way. What was he expecting? "Hmmm? Those little buggers... I knew they would do mostly evil and sure enough... that's what they're doing. Oh, well, not my fault. What was I supposed to do? Strike them dead if they disobeyed me and did evil?"

 

[Trailblazer]

No, not his fault he's all-knowing and knew that if he designed people with a higher and lower nature that most people would choose their lower nature. Except knowing that, he went ahead and designed humans that way. What was he expecting? "Hmmm? Those little buggers... I knew they would do mostly evil and sure enough... that's what they're doing. Oh, well, not my fault. What was I supposed to do? Strike them dead if they disobeyed me and did evil?"

First of all, most people do not choose their lower nature, and even if some do choose to be more material than spiritual, most people are not evil or criminal. The fact that most people choose their higher nature alone demonstrates that people are capable of choosing their higher nature. This is basic logic.

Secondly, this world was never created to be a paradise, that is a Christian fantasy.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no Baha'i answer. My answer is that it was just a story, so there was never any empty tomb. In short, it is all fictional, made up crap. If you want to agonize over this till the day you die you will just be wasting the only life you have to get it right. I'd hate to see that happen over something this inconsequential. Who cares if Jesus rose from the dead? Why would it matter? I started a thread about that a while back.

Why would it matter if Jesus had risen from the dead?

Well there you go... "fictional made up crap." But that's not an official Baha'i answer is it. That's the big, huge problem with the Baha'i Faith. They make too many things in the Bible "symbolic". Which to me is really saying what you just said... it's all made up fictional crap. I think I'm even nicer. I say people made up legends and myths about their prophets and Gods. But Baha'is need some of the things to be true. So they have to pretend they really respect and believe in all the major religions and their Scriptures. I see no evidence that they do... Except some fictional Christianity and fictional Buddhism and fictional Hinduism that they have invented.

The risen Jesus doesn't mean much to a lot of people. But to most Christians, him rising from the dead is the most important part of the story. He conquer sin. He conquered Satan. And he conquered death. To you, that's all BS, so of course it's not important.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's hilarious. Why would we care about the physical body of Jesus?
I don't care if Jesus rose from the dead or not. It has no bearing on who Baha'u'llah.

You seem to care that Christians are wrong. That Jesus is dead and not coming back. Your guy, Baha'u'llah is the true Messiah for this day. I have never seen anything you've written that would give me the impression that if Jesus did rise physically from the dead that you wouldn't care one way or another. Anyway, I'm on page 30 and stopping for the night. What's weird is all these things I'm posting now don't show up until several pages later.

 

[Aupmanyav]

By fluid I meant that what God knows is not written in concrete but rather it flows (changes) according to what humans choose to do.

Now you change the goal post. You are saying what you did not say in the referred post.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well there you go... "fictional made up crap." But that's not an official Baha'i answer is it. That's the big, huge problem with the Baha'i Faith. They make too many things in the Bible "symbolic".

That is Abdul-Baha's way of saying that it didn't literally happen and trying to find some meaning in the stories. It is just one interpretation. Baha'is are not obligated to believe it.

Why is it a problem that many tings in the Bible are symbolic?

Which to me is really saying what you just said... it's all made up fictional crap. I think I'm even nicer. I say people made up legends and myths about their prophets and Gods.

No, I am not nice. I say the whole bodily resurrection thing is bull crap. I am angry that so many people believe because I consider all those people deluded and they were deluded by whoever wrote the stories and the Church who promoted them as being true.

But Baha'is need some of the things to be true. So they have to pretend they really respect and believe in all the major religions and their Scriptures. I see no evidence that they do... Except some fictional Christianity and fictional Buddhism and fictional Hinduism that they have invented.

You cannot go by what you see posted on a forum. The official Baha'i position on other religions is in the Baha'i Writings and is is one such example:

“Let no one, however, mistake my purpose. The Revelation, of which Bahá’u’lláh is the source and center, abrogates none of the religions that have preceded it, nor does it attempt, in the slightest degree, to distort their features or to belittle their value. It disclaims any intention of dwarfing any of the Prophets of the past, or of whittling down the eternal verity of their teachings. It can, in no wise, conflict with the spirit that animates their claims, nor does it seek to undermine the basis of any man’s allegiance to their cause. Its declared, its primary purpose is to enable every adherent of these Faiths to obtain a fuller understanding of the religion with which he stands identified, and to acquire a clearer apprehension of its purpose.”
The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, pp, 57-58

Read more: Fundamental Principle of Religious Truth

The risen Jesus doesn't mean much to a lot of people. But to most Christians, him rising from the dead is the most important part of the story. He conquer sin. He conquered Satan. And he conquered death. To you, that's all BS, so of course it's not important.

The problem is that Jesus did not conquer sin by rising from the dead, He conquered din by dying on the cross. The resurrection was just an add-on and it just messed everything up. If Jesus rose from the dead what did he sacrifice, ever thought of that? No, no Christians never thought of that, it took F1fan to come up with that.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

What about the word "finished" do Christians NOT understand? That verse not only means the His mission of conquering sin was finished it means He is NOT coming back to this world. But Christians cannot face that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now you change the goal post. You are saying what you did not say in the referred post.

No, it is the same. You just misunderstood what I meant by fluid.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have never seen anything you've written that would give me the impression that if Jesus did rise physically from the dead that you wouldn't care one way or another.

Well now you've seen it. I only care for the reasons I gave a couple of posts ago. I care that millions of people have been duped.

 

[Truthseeker]

"Hmmm? Those little buggers... I knew they would do mostly evil and sure enough... that's what they're doing. Oh, well, not my fault. What was I supposed to do? Strike them dead if they disobeyed me and did evil?"

I think you are thinking Christianwise, as in original sin. Humans have a noble spiritual side too. People today do indeed act as if they are animals, because over time, they have lost the original spirit of their religion and believe in dogma and doctrine, not righteous acts for the most part. Things like anti-abortion has made some follow a amoral leader.

Alas! that humanity is completely submerged in imitations and unrealities notwithstanding the truth of divine religion has ever remained the same. Superstitions have obscured the fundamental reality, the world is darkened and the light of religion is not apparent. This darkness is conducive to differences and dissensions; rites and dogmas are many and various; therefore discord has arisen among the religious systems whereas religion is for the unification of mankind. True religion is the source of love and agreement amongst men, the cause of the development of praiseworthy qualities; but the people are holding to the counterfeit and imitation, negligent of the reality which unifies; so they are bereft and deprived of the radiance of religion. They follow superstitions inherited from their fathers and ancestors. To such an extent has this prevailed that they have taken away the heavenly light of divine truth and sit in the darkness of imitations and imaginations. That which was meant to be conducive to life has become the cause of death; that which should have been an evidence of knowledge is now a proof of ignorance; that which was a factor in the sublimity of human nature has proved to be its degradation. Therefore the realm of the religionist has gradually narrowed and darkened and the sphere of the materialist has widened and advanced; for the religionist has held to imitation and counterfeit, neglecting and discarding holiness and the sacred reality of religion. When the sun sets it is the time for bats to fly. They come forth because they are creatures of the night. When the lights of religion become darkened the materialists appear. They are the bats of night. The decline of religion is their time of activity; they seek the shadows when the world is darkened and clouds have spread over it.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Foundations of World Unity, p. 71