Does God Exist? - The Fog is Lifting

[Papersock]

You atheists... Why do you state that evolution does *not* occur by chance and yet show no alternative!! I see this so much it's gonna make me sick.

I'm sure this has been said many times already elsewhere, but I'll say it here. Mutations are random, natural selection is not. Natural selection "guides" evolution.

THE ONLY WAY FOR EVOLUTION TO DISPROVE GOD IS FOR IT TO BE BY CHANCE!

Evolution does not disprove god.

Otherwise your supporting the idea that the universe is guided by some type of force.

Perhaps natural forces?

Agnosticism holds but atheism doesn't.

One cannot conclusivley rule out god solely on a belief in evolution, in my opinion. However, combine the evidence of evolution with information in various other subjects and one could become relatively certain about whether god exists or not.

 

[Willamena]

No matter what assumption we choose a few simple facts remain. Chaos creates homogenization **especially over long periods of time**. The more laws that are added, the more things get heterogeneous.

**Laws are never created out of chaos** (To accept laws is to accept intelligent design)

I liked the reasoning, in its context, up until this part. If randomization (which I assume you meant for "chaos") creates homogenization of heterogeneous bits, surely there's a "law" about that? Doesn't that describe, oh say, entropy?

 

[Cordoba]

Now let's assume that the universe just was. Let's assume that the universe always had matter and always had the laws that govern it. Let's assume that the universe is immortal. The laws could have "Just existed" and all matter could have always been.

That used to be the assumption made in the 19th. century

Now we know that is not the case.

The universe came into existence 14 billion years ago, which means it is not Eternal

Anything which is not eternal must have a start, and therefore before that is was non-existent

It can only come into existence by an Eternal cause. And that Eternal Cause is The Eternal Creator

 

[love]

Evolution, no matter how you see it should do more to prove God than not.
To evolve and not just exist shows we had a beginning. To have a beginning means we were created.
To be created we had to have a Creator.
One does not have to be a student of history to see the evolution of man. Just look at your parents and grand parents.

 

[Cordoba]

Good post - Well-said Love

For more logical thinking on the Creator a nice video to think about

It's based on this article: "Allah is Known Through Reason"

http://www.evidencesofcreation.com/reason01.htm

Summary

You opened your eyes one day and found yourself in the midst of a lot of blessings… Think about the things that are offered to you by Allah. At every little detail present in the world, Allah makes us aware of His existence. This film summons you to ponder over the universe and living beings and see how they have been created flawlessly. By showing a few of the countless signs of Allah in nature, we aim to make you think about His power and knowledge over all things

To download the video:

http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1069

 

[love]

Cordoba it is so wonderful to acknowledge God.
A refreshing bite of an orange can be so pleasing as you thank God for what He provides for our sustenance. You know this was no accident.

 

[Papersock]

God also made a lot of things that could easily kill us...

 

[love]

Yea, and your glass is half empty instead of half full.

 

[Yerda]

A couple of questions if you have time, Cordoba.

It can only come into existence by an Eternal cause.

How did you discover this (i.e. in what way is this verifiable)?

And that Eternal Cause is The Eternal Creator

Can you explain the meaning of 'eternal', 'cause', and 'creator'?

How do you bridge the gap between this ambiguous Eternal Cause/Creator and the intelligent, intentional, personal deity described in holy texts like the Koran?

 

[gnostic]

I hold this opinion as I'm agnostic. There's things we can attain, and things we can't. If you're going to chase after the unattainable with the intent of knowing it, then it darned well better be about the chase and not the goal.

Well, the journey is not just arriving the destination; the journey itself is part of the journey. I often find that the journey is far more enjoyable than the destination.

The mystery is what makes life interesting. Knowing everything will only makes the life boring as hell.

 

[Jeremiah]

That used to be the assumption made in the 19th. century

Now we know that is not the case.

The universe came into existence 14 billion years ago, which means it is not Eternal

Anything which is not eternal must have a start, and therefore before that is was non-existent

It can only come into existence by an Eternal cause. And that Eternal Cause is The Eternal Creator

I hope your not talking about the Big Bang.

 

[Jeremiah]

To be created we had to have a Creator.

What if we where never created?

Creation is a human concept; existence does not have to abide by human concepts.


It is possible that there was no beginning.

 

[Papersock]

Yea, and your glass is half empty instead of half full.

It is equally empty and full

 

[Anti-World]

"I liked the reasoning, in its context, up until this part. If randomization (which I assume you meant for "chaos") creates homogenization of heterogeneous bits, surely there's a 'law' about that? Doesn't that describe, oh say, entropy?"

Sure, why not? Chaos is definitely a law in itself. Which is also fascinating, but I wont get into that.
I'm not sure what you don't like about it, I can think of a couple of things.

I did contradict myself, though. If all the laws existed and the universe always existed and always will then it's possible, though unlikely, that there is no conscious force underlying the basic functions of the universe. It's possible that the universe expands, creating new things, and then contracts, destroying everything, and then repeats this process over and over again. *always has and always will* perpetually.
The largest flaw, and the reason I avoid this theory, is that the universe would have to be perfect, as in completely stable and, since nothing inside the universe is completely stable I find it unlikely that the universe itself is completely stable.
Again, it *is* possible, as far as I know, just unlikely.

In response to Papersock
1. Yes I have, yet it doesn't explain many, many things about the universe. And I understand that it's not suppose to.
2. Agreed
3. Perhaps, but unlikely.
4. No, actually, I find it's still very open to debate on both sides.

"Evolution, no matter how you see it should do more to prove God than not."
Generally speaking, yes. Though only at the absolute basis of Evolution. If you say what I think your going to say then not really.

"To evolve and not just exist shows we had a beginning. To have a beginning means we were created."
You said it... The second part is true, as far as I know, but just because you have a beginning just means you were created by your parents, and so on and so forth. However, it doesn't necessarily mean a "god" started it. Like I stated before, there's only two theories that seem to work. One, that the universe was created by some sort of sentience or, two, the universe always existed.
The question that would almost definitely prove the existence or non-existence of "god" would be if the universe is mortal or immortal. However, it seems impossible to truly know the answer.

Jeremiah has a good point.
It is possible, but it seems unlikely.

 

[Anti-World]

It is equally empty and full

It's at the halfway point.

 

[lew0049]

What if we where never created?

Creation is a human concept; existence does not have to abide by human concepts.


It is possible that there was no beginning.

It is possible (but then again, it seems as though this would be a scientific question and science has only come up with possible theories). And since we are humans, it seems logical to evaluate things based on human concepts, otherwise you are posing a question to which there is no answer. And if you have/are looking for truth in the world, a question like this is similiar to questions "what is the inherient purpose of an ant?" Well, unless we are ants, how can we answer this question as humans? A purpose we give them and there functionality on earth would not be an inherient purpose.

 

[lew0049]

And when people on this thread say "evolution" - it would probably be good to distinguish between micro & macro b/c there is a big difference.

 

[yossarian22]

And when people on this thread say "evolution" - it would probably be good to distinguish between micro & macro b/c there is a big difference.

Other than an arbitrary line we drew in the sand, not really.

 

[gnostic]

I think "Does God exist?" is not the question. The question is "What am I doing about it?"

It is really depends on what this god wants.

If this god want something that go against my principles, like kill someone in his name or his glory, then I don't want to have anything to do with him.

If I kill someone in matter of defence because my life or someone else's is at stake, then this is different matter to killing for belief alone. If God want someone dead, then he should kill this person himself instead of asking someone to do it for him. I would walk away from him if he expect me to be his weapon.

It really depends on what messages that God gives us.

 

[Willamena]

It is really depends on what this god wants.

If this god want something that go against my principles, like kill someone in his name or his glory, then I don't want to have anything to do with him.

If I kill someone in matter of defence because my life or someone else's is at stake, then this is different matter to killing for belief alone. If God want someone dead, then he should kill this person himself instead of asking someone to do it for him. I would walk away from him if he expect me to be his weapon.

It really depends on what messages that God gives us.

How do we know "what this God wants"? How do we get his/her/its messages?