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Does God Exist? - The Fog is Lifting

Cordoba

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Willamena said:
I hold this opinion as I'm agnostic. There's things we can attain, and things we can't. If you're going to chase after the unattainable with the intent of knowing it, then it darned well better be about the chase and not the goal.
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You're quite right: God is unattainable to the human mind, simply because He is Eternal.

There is to Him no equivalent

However, look at it from the other side:

Can the unattainable communicate with human beings who live on earth for an average lifespan of 80 years?

Logically-speaking, is that possible?
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Cordoba said:
Can the unattainable communicate with human beings who live on earth for an average lifespan of 80 years?

Logically-speaking, is that possible?
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Can we ever honestly say it's not possible?

Since it's logic leads us to agnosticism, I'd say it is logically speaking that we cannot rule out any "thing."
 
Darkness

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Cordoba said:
Can the unattainable communicate with human beings who live on earth for an average lifespan of 80 years?

Logically-speaking, is that possible?
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If God is all-powerful then I would assume He could find a way.
 
Cordoba

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Darkness said:
If God is all-powerful then I would assume He could find a way.
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Exactly

And that's why He sent Divine Revelations to His chosen prophets to inform the human race that He is our Creator and the Creator of this universe, and that one day to Him we shall return
 
Cordoba

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Willamena said:
Can we ever honestly say it's not possible?

Since it's logic leads us to agnosticism, I'd say it is logically speaking that we cannot rule out any "thing."
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Fair enough

In that case, the answer is simple: to find out whether there is a message which God has sent us to inform us of His presence and to let us know why we are here?
 
Anti-World

Anti-World

Member
You atheists... Why do you state that evolution does *not* occur by chance and yet show no alternative!! I see this so much it's gonna make me sick.

The definition of god can be folded to match the laws the evolutionists arbitrarily make to patch up the evolution theory.

THE ONLY WAY FOR EVOLUTION TO DISPROVE GOD IS FOR IT TO BE BY CHANCE!

Otherwise your supporting the idea that the universe is guided by some type of force.

Agnosticism holds but atheism doesn't.
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Anti-World said:
You atheists... Why do you state that evolution does *not* occur by chance and yet show no alternative!! I see this so much it's gonna make me sick.

The definition of god can be folded to match the laws the evolutionists arbitrarily make to patch up the evolution theory.

THE ONLY WAY FOR EVOLUTION TO DISPROVE GOD IS FOR IT TO BE BY CHANCE!

Otherwise your supporting the idea that the universe is guided by some type of force.
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The Theory of Evolution is a set of rules; if "evolution" didn't follow those rules, there couldn't be a theory about them.

That evolution follows rules is not a statement one way or the other about God.
 
Darkness

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Cordoba said:
Exactly

And that's why He sent Divine Revelations to His chosen prophets to inform the human race that He is our Creator and the Creator of this universe, and that one day to Him we shall return
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You mean some religious text written over a thousand years ago, which has little relevance in the Humanistic Age? God could do better. He could simply appear before all men and women.
 
maro

maro

muslimah
However, if anyone actually wants to check into it, you will see that the eye has a couple of problems with its design (no matter how complex it may be). I guess God merely screwed up and couldn't create the eye correctly.
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Darkness said:
You mean some religious text written over a thousand years ago, which has little relevance in the Humanistic Age? God could do better. He could simply appear before all men and women.
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why don't you tell him, when you meet him, that he could have done better becoz it was not good enough for you to believe ?!! :rolleyes:

And by the way ,you are not the one to judge the (scriptures) , let it for the believers ;)
 
Anti-World

Anti-World

Member
It seems what I have been taught Agnostic meant is grossly incorrect. When I said Agnosticism holds but Atheism doesn't I meant, as Agnostic, a person that believes in a god that doesn't care much about human life or morality.
Meh. My bad.


:rolleyes: Now then, the irritating debate:

I'm going to put this as simply as I can.

Let us assume the creation of everything began with no physical characteristic. No laws either, for laws had to have been created with the matter. The only plausible explanation of the creation of the universe must have been some type of movement in the nothing. A conscious change. A motivation to exist. How this can be explained I hardly know. It, however, can not be chance and it can not be run by the laws that hadn't existed yet. It falls frustratingly down to a creator or perhaps motivator to the universe. There must have been a change, a very deliberate change, for the universe to exist from nothing.

Now let's assume that the universe just was. Let's assume that the universe always had matter and always had the laws that govern it. Let's assume that the universe is immortal. The laws could have "Just existed" and all matter could have always been.



No matter what assumption we choose a few simple facts remain. Chaos creates homogenization **especially over long periods of time**. The more laws that are added, the more things get heterogeneous.

**Laws are never created out of chaos** (To accept laws is to accept intelligent design)

Our universe is *very* heterogeneous. Hence the only solution can be a "Guiding Organizing Designing process".


"Guiding Organizing Designing process" is a phrase from the book The G.O.D. experiments by Gary E. Schwartz. PH.D.
I am *not* a theist and I'm *not* an atheist. I look for the best theories for amusement, not as a lifestyle.
 
YmirGF

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Jay said:
Agreed. It is a case of the fog being replaced with smog.
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Close but I would tend to think of it as being unfettered smug arrogance ... like honestly Jay, it's all perfectly logical *giggles* although admittedly the "logic" does tend to escape me. Do I have to believe this stuff first before it begins to make sense? Ok, I get it. If I believe in the original precepts then things begin to make some sense, but if I remain an unbeliever then it will never make sense. Is that supposed to be logical? I thought the idea of logic is that is proves premises and isn't something bestowed simply by association with other things. It is as if they are saying A, B and C are all logical and here are the proofs and because these esteemed folks thought A, B and C are logical they may be inclined to agree that D is logical too because it is a letter like A, B and C. Descartes? Kant? Islam? Spirituality does make for strange bedfellows, eh.

By the way, I am not especially sure we want to see the world hidden under the haze of this kind of thinking. Perhaps we can only hope it remains a real "pea-souper".
 
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