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Does evolution have a purpose?

Does evolution have a purpose

  • yes

    Votes: 17 32.1%
  • no

    Votes: 30 56.6%
  • not sure

    Votes: 6 11.3%

  • Total voters
    53

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Your previous post was wrong, and this one remains foggy.It remains . . .

Not true. Mutations are not unpredictable, and always occur in a predictable pattern within a limited range of outcomes. Yes, the timing of any one mutation is random and not predictable, but over time mutations occur in a predictable pattern,
I took genetics when working on my anthropology degrees, plus I've had subscriptions with Scientific American for decades now. However, an expert, I am not. Patterns emerge, yes; but always predictable, no.

But why is it you always seem to want to argue with the assumption that you're always right? Maybe consider getting off your high horse.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
there are gaps in the genetic codes between animals which cannot be overcome in terms of interbreeding. It can be explained away theoretically, but there is not one ounce of proof that the links (such as that "UCA") really existed.
there you go with that "proof" nonsense, again.
We don't have proof of anything, outside of mathematics. The best we have is good, tested evidence.

There are gaps between footprints in the snow, too, but noöne claims there's no clear trail.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I took genetics when working on my anthropology degrees, plus I've had subscriptions with Scientific American for decades now. However, an expert, I am not. Patterns emerge, yes; but always predictable, no.

But why is it you always seem to want to argue with the assumption that you're always right? Maybe consider getting off your high horse.

It is not an assumption it is an academic background and study to know that the only thing truly random in terms of mutations is the timing of the individual 'random' event.

The question of randomness often comes up in dialogues involving evolution vs. creationism, and the nature and history of our physical existence. This directly relates to the flawed probabilities used Intelligent Design Creationist advocates.

My proposition is: The nature of our physical existence is fundamentally deterministic by Natural Laws, natural processes and nothing is truly 'random.' This does not mean we have a 'clock works' mechanistic Newtonian physical existence. What is observed in nature is the 'random' occurance of individual events, such as the 'random' occurrence of the 'timing' of individual events in mutations in genes, and the timing of events at the Quanta level of 'Quantum' events. Despite the 'randomness' of individual events, the pattern of the chain of events over time is predictable and 'not random.' This predictable pattern in nature is the basis of Methodological Naturalism where predictable hypothesis can be falsified as the basis of scientific knowledge.

What is observed in the nature of our physical existence is the observed predictable fractal nature (Chaos Theory) of chains of natural events when there are many variables of the system of events, such as in weather patterns and predictions.

Fractal patterns dominate nature for example: Not two Maple leaves are exactly alike, but all Maple leaves look like Maple leaves.

Complexity of variables influences the randomness of events. For example: The very simple geometry of small snowflakes may result in two snow flakes that are a like, but beyond the most simple snowflakes the variables of snowflake formation result in no two snowflakes look alike, but they all look like snowflakes

Example:

Source: Understanding Natural Selection: Essential Concepts and Common Misconceptions | Evolution: Education and Outreach | Full Text"

Understanding Natural Selection: Essential Concepts and Common Misconceptions | Evolution: Education and Outreach | Full Text[/URL]]

Natural selection is a non-random difference in reproductive output among replicating entities, often due indirectly to differences in survival in a particular environment, leading to an increase in the proportion of beneficial, heritable characteristics within a population from one generation to the next. That this process can be encapsulated within a single (admittedly lengthy) sentence should not diminish the appreciation of its profundity and power. It is one of the core mechanisms of evolutionary change and is the main process responsible for the complexity and adaptive intricacy of the living world. According to philosopher Daniel Dennett (1995), this qualifies evolution by natural selection as “the single best idea anyone has ever had.”

© Copyright Original Source



In Quantum Mechanics:

Source: Random definition"
Random definition[/URL]]

Randomness in QM means that the outcome of individual experiments cannot be predicted. Only the average outcome of many, many experiments can be predicted. There are some exceptions. For example, if 1000 identical particles are prepared in identical energy eigenstates, you can measure the energy of each particle, and you will get the same answer for all of them. But this is not true for all experiments. If instead of measuring energy, you can measure the position of each particle, you will find a different position for each particle.

© Copyright Original Source



The attempts to define mutations as random or non-random is equally problematic.

Randomness in genetic mutations:

Source: Edge.org"
Edge.org[/URL]]

What is commonly called "random mutation" does not in fact occur in a mathematically random pattern. The process of genetic mutation is extremely complex, with multiple pathways, involving more than one system. Current research suggests most spontaneous mutations occur as errors in the repair process for damaged DNA. Neither the damage nor the errors in repair have been shown to be random in where they occur, how they occur, or when they occur. Rather, the idea that mutations are random is simply a widely held assumption by non-specialists and even many teachers of biology. There is no direct evidence for it.

On the contrary, there's much evidence that genetic mutation vary in patterns. For instance it is pretty much accepted that mutation rates increase or decrease as stress on the cells increases or decreases. These variable rates of mutation include mutations induced by stress from an organism's predators and competition, and as well as increased mutations brought on by environmental and epigenetic factors. Mutations have also been shown to have a higher chance of occurring near a place in DNA where mutations have already occurred, creating mutation hotspot clusters—a non-random pattern.

© Copyright Original Source



There is a specific limited classes of mutations that are sometimes called 'non-random(?), but the 'timing' of the occurrence of these mutations is also 'random,' but the occurrence of these mutations is related to specific gene patterns such as the doubling of certain parts genes repeated predictably over time.

There are many layman common terminology misuse of random throughout including math misuse.

For example Random number generators are not truly random. Random number generators are logical predictive programs that choose numbers within specific parameters. Even though the choice of individual numbers cannot be specifically predicted the pattern of the numbers chosen is predictable to follow a fractal pattern over time.

Note: This thread does not deal with the human will issue of the degree and nature of human 'Free Will.' It does not conclude whether there is human 'Free Will' or not.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Please tell me more about these gaps, and why they 'cannot be overcome'. I know very little about genetics, but I am willing to try to learn.



It would be better to say 'evidence' rather than 'proof'. I don't know anything about the 'universal common ancestor', but we were discussing the descent of humans, chimpanzees and gorillas from Late Miocene common ancestors, such as Orrorin, Sahelanthropus, Ouranopithecus and Chororopithecus. There is certainly evidence, both from genetics and from fossils, and from the obvious fact that all living things have parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and more distant ancestors, that these common ancestors existed. So far, your only counter-argument has been to deny that this evidence means what it appears to mean, without offering any other interpretation of it.
I am learning about these things. So from what I have heard, and those more knowledgeable than I am can say more about the "Unknown Common Ancestor" of apes in reference to humans in the ape "family". But seems no one knows.
That being covered, there is a genetic gap in which species said to come from one another cannot mate.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
there you go with that "proof" nonsense, again.
We don't have proof of anything, outside of mathematics. The best we have is good, tested evidence.

There are gaps between footprints in the snow, too, but noöne claims there's no clear trail.
Not quite the same as reproduction gaps.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I am learning about these things.

At present no evidence nor scientific references that would indicate that this is true.

So from what I have heard, and those more knowledgeable than I am can say more about the "Unknown Common Ancestor" of apes in reference to humans in the ape "family". But seems no one knows.
That being covered, there is a genetic gap in which species said to come from one another cannot mate.

Heard? No scientific references of what you have read and referenced here.

Total lack of any reasonable knowledge of science and the recent advances in the science of evolution. The evolving knowledge of the science of evolution has been achieved concerning human evolution. You have chosen to conveniently avoid and not respond to previous scientific references.

See the latest: New human ancestor classified - Homo bodoensis
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Logically, if mutations were predictable in terms of outcomes, then we could not have even entered the Cambrian Explosion from just single-cell organisms that were the only life forms for a couple of billion years.

There are numerous causes of mutation, thus unpredicatability of outcomes is logical: different causes = different results.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Logically, if mutations were predictable in terms of outcomes, then we could not have even entered the Cambrian Explosion from just single-cell organisms that were the only life forms for a couple of billion years.

There are numerous causes of mutation, thus unpredicatability of outcomes is logical: different causes = different results.

The genetics of mutations does not depend on logic.It is based on the results of Methodological Naturalism.

The subject of randomness and predictability of mutations was addressed with references in post #363.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The subject of randomness and predictability of mutations was addressed with references in post #363.

None of the links in that post actually work. One of the quotes was about natural selection, rather than mutation, one was about quantum mechanics, and one was talking about (statistical) patterns in mutations and things that can affect the mutation rate. None of which actually changes the fact that mutations are effectively random within the statistical patterns.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Testing does not prove effectiveness

Except that it does.
That effectiveness is then expressed in percentages. Like with the various covid vaccines. They all have different rates of effectiveness.

, meaning that it is prescribed knowing it may not help

Just like pretty much every decision one makes in life.
Every time you put your phone to your ear, it might explode and kill you. This happens. Phones on occasion do explode. The chances of it happening, are quite low. There are billions of phones but very little instances where this happened. But it could happen.

So every time you make a call, you do so knowing it might kill you.


Again, it's applied guesswork

It's not. It rather is informed and reasoned decision making.

Weighing pro's and con's. Going down the path that gives you the most chance of success.

or research or science yet the results are certainly not certain

But they tend to be quite accurate.
When large scale double blind studies show that a certain vaccine is 95% effective, then administering it to millions or billions of people will reflect that 95% effectiveness.

, and -- it's not like evolution where anything can be tested or proven. An apt illustration is that a farmer knows if he crosses one type of pig with another, he's still going to get a pig. That's proof.

If he would get anything else then a pig, evolution would be falsified.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Actually, most of them I would say (the evolutionists) went along with Darwin because of his posit that chimpanzees and gorillas kind of looked like humans, more or less. And the same with other types of beings, they resembled each other, therefore...they "evolved" from somewhere as from a common ancestor, he and they all figured.


Wow... so like, do you really think and believe that that was the extent of their argument and support for the hypothesis? You haven't read The Origin of Species, have you? :rolleyes:

Not that it matters much of course what they did and didn't know +200 years ago. Science has come a long way since then. Many things that they could only theorize, are demonstrable facts today.

You might want to read up.

I find it very strange that with all the many fossils found, the human, chimpanzee, bonobo and gorilla, etc. 'Common Ancestor' they all supposedly came from has not been found.

Why do you find that strange?
I don't find that strange. It's amazing that we have as many fossils as we do. Considering how hard it is to make a fossil, especially in the habitat those ancestors used to live in, it's incredibly that we have as many as we do.

Having said that, many many many clear key transitional fossils have been found but people like you tend to dismisses them at face value anyway.

And having said that... it's not like we need fossils. DNA is more then enough. DNA makes common ancestry of species a genetic fact.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The theory is a theory. Again -- other than the FACT that one fossil resembles another (yes, that's a FACT that a fossil resembles another fossil ), it is not proof of evolution. There simply IS no proof that is verifiable and true. I'm not saying similar types (take bats, for instance) did not section off to form the different groups of bats, but fossils are not proof of evolution, and scientists that believe in the theory are happy to use fossils as a way of showing 'proof'. (Of some sort. But it's not proof. What IS proof is that when one type of pig is crossbred with another type, it produces a pig. Back again to those intermediary forms where the genetics got lost, banished.)
Do you believe in curvature of space time? The reason I ask is because as Newton pointed out, We know gravity by happenstance. In other words, taking it into this topic (evolution), we know there are elephants and genomes and dna. How they got there is not known. How gravity got here is not known. It's all guesswork.


Stop with the intellectual dishonesty already.

NO theory has "proof" in science. Fossils don't "prove" evolution. They support evolution.
Evidence supports theories.

Proof is for mathematics.

This goes for evolution theory and every other theory. Germs, atoms, plate tectonics, relativity,...

Learn2science
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
None of the links in that post actually work. One of the quotes was about natural selection, rather than mutation, one was about quantum mechanics, and one was talking about (statistical) patterns in mutations and things that can affect the mutation rate. None of which actually changes the fact that mutations are effectively random within the statistical patterns.

As per references the only 'fact that mutations are effectively random' is ONLY the timing of the mutation event, which is not predictable. The articles do not ONLY deal with Natural Selection, but the patterns of mutations, which is the The pattern of mutations is important, because the pattern demonstrates that mutations do not fit the definition of being 'truely random.' The other problem is the definition of random: Randomness - Wikipedia

In common parlance, randomness is the apparent or actual lack of pattern or predictability in events.[1][2] A random sequence of events, symbols or steps often has no order and does not follow an intelligible pattern or combination. Individual random events are, by definition, unpredictable, but if the probability distribution is known, the frequency of different outcomes over repeated events (or "trials") is predictable.[note 1] For example, when throwing two dice, the outcome of any particular roll is unpredictable, but a sum of 7 will tend to occur twice as often as 4. In this view, randomness is not haphazardness; it is a measure of uncertainty of an outcome. Randomness applies to concepts of chance, probability, and information entropy.

The reference to Quantum Mechanics is indeed relevant, because in all of nature it is only the timing of the individual event that is unpredictable and to a certain extent be called random. Actually the events themselves can be definedas to cause and effect,and the patterns and nature of the chain of events can be demonstrated as caused by Natural Laws and natural processes
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
As per references the only 'fact that mutations are effectively random' is ONLY the timing of the mutation event, which is not predictable.

Nonsense. You cannot predict either the timing or the sequence. We neither know when the next mutation will happen nor what it will be.
The articles do not ONLY deal with Natural Selection, but the patterns of mutations, which is the The pattern of mutations is important, because the pattern demonstrates that mutations do not fit the definition of being 'truely random.'

I'm not sure anybody is arguing that we have something that is entirely random in the strictest sense (flipping a coin or throwing dice aren't strictly random) but there is effective randomness because we literally cannot predict what or when mutations happen. There are probabilities associated with certain types of mutation but the unpredictability remains
The reference to Quantum Mechanics is indeed relevant, because in all of nature it is only the timing of the individual event that is unpredictable and to a certain extent be called random.

This is also false. If, for example, you perform a measurement, then you can exactly choose a time, but would be unable to predict the outcome, just the probabilities if you knew enough about what you were measuring.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Nonsense. You cannot predict either the timing or the sequence. We neither know when the next mutation will happen nor what it will be.


I'm not sure anybody is arguing that we have something that is entirely random in the strictest sense (flipping a coin or throwing dice aren't strictly random) but there is effective randomness because we literally cannot predict what or when mutations happen. There are probabilities associated with certain types of mutation but the unpredictability remains


This is also false. If, for example, you perform a measurement, then you can exactly choose a time, but would be unable to predict the outcome, just the probabilities if you knew enough about what you were measuring.

Read again post #373 and respond coherently with out rambling rant.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you seriously believe 'evolutionists' are so simplistic and uneducated that they base their belief in evolution on a superficial resemblance between a couple of apes? What about all the evidence from the rest of nature -- microbes, plants and other animals? What about genetics? We all learned the evidence in high school, why would we be fooled by a man-chimp resemblance?
What evidence would convince you that evolution is real? How much evidence do you need?
There is no amount of evidence, reason or logic that would convince her.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
You're saying I'm making it up. Problem with your accusation is that there's no proof of that. It's simply -- n o t t h e r e.
All your posts. They indicate that you do not have a sound grasp of theory, evidence, science, biology, geology, evolution, proof, etc. You routinely make fallacious arguments to reject scientific findings based on what you want to believe and not for any factual reason.

The evidence to support the claim is certainly there.
 
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