Does evolution have a purpose?

[TagliatelliMonster]

What you don't seem to understand, is that some of us believe what we believe for reasons other than "because that is what I was taught to believe"

I don't think I said anything about how or why you came to believe the things that you do, nor do I think it's particularly relevant to the point at hand....

So I'm not quite sure why you'ld say this.

I find that the world is full of people that believe "what they are taught to believe", whether theist or atheist.
Some people are either incapable of making their own conclusions .. or simply don't wish to. They are content with following others without using their own powers of reasoning.

You mean like people who say things like "...whatever the evidence"?

Ah, but you suggested that I am forced to believe a particular religious doctrine .. which I'm not.

Self-enforced, yes.
Your religious belief is dogmatic, is it not?

If a scientific theory contradicts something you believe religiously, you'll reject the science and go for the religious beliefs, right? Is there really any type or amount of evidence that could make you go for the science instead?

"There is no compulsion in religion"

"...but if you don't believe, you'll be tortured for eternity".

means that we are not forced to accept something without reason.
..such as "G-d is one", or "G-d is a trinity", for example.

Ok.
So why then do you not accept the evidence of genetics?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Of course it isn't.
Is the physical universe an abstract concept? No.

Indeed no, because it actually exists in reality.

Abstract concepts only "exist" between people's ears, you get that right?

Does the universe contain things that possess intelligence and awareness? Yes, and it is an abstract concept.

What is abstract about humans, chimps, gorilla's,...?
They all seem pretty physical to me.

The concept is still valid whether you are alive or dead.

Err... no. If you are dead, there is no intelligence or awareness.

i.e. it is an eternal concept

No.

 

[muhammad_isa]

"...but if you don't believe, you'll be tortured for eternity".

..but I believe that for rational reasons.
I see that creatures have minds.
I see that minds are an abstract concept, whatever way they might be generated.
I see that intelligence and awareness are cosmic concepts that don't depend on somone's ability to be dead or alive.
I see that that implies eternity.

Now, "if" we find ourselves aware once more after our death [ it's happened once, and I have no absolute reason why it can't happen again ], then it is quite rational to believe that our behaviour would affect our future lives.
I believe that eternal torment refers to the state of our minds.
I am not a literalist, as in we cannot use our intelligence to establish spiritual truth.

i.e. we can use our intelligence to establish what is allegorical and what is not

 

[muhammad_isa]

Err... no. If you are dead, there is no intelligence or awareness.

Are you assuming that when you die, there is no intelligence or awareness in the cosmos due to the fact that you personally cannot detect it?

 

[ratiocinator]

..but I believe that for rational reasons.

Why can't you tell us, what they are then? Are they secret?

I see that creatures have minds.
I see that minds are an abstract concept, whatever way they might be generated.

Minds aren't an abstract concept, they undoubtedly exist in reality.

I see that intelligence and awareness are cosmic concepts that don't depend on somone's ability to be dead or alive.

How do you 'see' that?

I see that that implies eternity.

Even if it were true (and you have given no reason to believe it), how does that follow?

Now, "if" we find ourselves aware once more after our death [ it's happened once, and I have no absolute reason why it can't happen again ]...

Where is the evidence for this bizarre claim that it happened once?

 

[ratiocinator]

Are you assuming that when you die, there is no intelligence or awareness in the cosmos due to the fact that you personally cannot detect it?

Having absolutely no reason to believe something is a good reason not to accept it (even if it's a possibility, all kinds of silly ideas are possible).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes. Einstein once said that "now" is merely an illusion,
albeit a persistent one.

Good for him. What does that have to do with anything?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you assuming that when you die, there is no intelligence or awareness in the cosmos due to the fact that you personally cannot detect it?

No. Things that exist other then myself, exist regardless if I am alive or not.

The intelligence / awareness of the individual that dies is what disappears.
That's kind of what being dead is...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

..but I believe that for rational reasons.

That's not really possible, since the place of torture is indistinguishable from fantasy. It's about as real as middle earth.

I see that creatures have minds.
I see that minds are an abstract concept, whatever way they might be generated.
I see that intelligence and awareness are cosmic concepts that don't depend on somone's ability to be dead or alive.
I see that that implies eternity.

And I see that that makes no sense at all and is fallacious to boot.

Now, "if" we find ourselves aware once more after our death [ it's happened once, and I have no absolute reason why it can't happen again ], then it is quite rational to believe that our behaviour would affect our future lives.

1. opinion
2. the point doesn't concern behavior. It concerns belief. People would be tortured for not believing, regardless of how they behave or have behaved.

I believe that eternal torment refers to the state of our minds.
I am not a literalist, as in we cannot use our intelligence to establish spiritual truth.
i.e. we can use our intelligence to establish what is allegorical and what is not

Before or after science shows a certain claim to be incorrect?

 

[muhammad_isa]

People would be tortured for not believing, regardless of how they behave or have behaved..

Who says?

Our behaviour is very much the point.
Are your beliefs about life the same as mine? No.
Do we live our lives by the same philosophy? No.

A person who is "not guilty" has nothing to fear.
It is not disbelief in itself that is the problem, it is the consequences that flow from it.

Now, you may deny that there are any consequences.
Again, if a believer's intentions and a disbeliever's intentions are identical, then there really are NOT any consequences.

..and G-d knows best what our true intentions actually are.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who says?

Your theology.

Our behaviour is very much the point.

Behaviour can be whatever the heck you want - if you don't believe in Islam after you've been informed by its existence, then it's down to the torture chambers with you.

True or false?

Or otherwise put: if you are aware of islam and the things it claims and you don't believe it - so you are not a muslim, is there then any chance for you to end up in paradise?

Are your beliefs about life the same as mine? No.
Do we live our lives by the same philosophy? No.

Do we nevertheless end up making very similar decisions? Yes.
Do we nevertheless more or less seek the same things in life (security, prosperity, welfare, hapiness, love)? Yes.

Is there anything moral that you do out of religious conviction that I couldn't do, or find motivation for from other sources to do? No.

A person who is "not guilty" has nothing to fear.
It is not disbelief in itself that is the problem, it is the consequences that flow from it.

What consequences?

Now, you may deny that there are any consequences.

And you may prove reluctant to be specific about what those consequences supposedly are. I have a feeling it'll be the same kind of stuff as typical snake-oil con-men... first they convince you that you are "sick" and then they conveniently provide the "only" cure.

So please, be specific about these supposed "consequences" and demonstrate how they are an actual thing, and not just another baseless claim in the doctrine.

Again, if a believer's intentions and a disbeliever's intentions are identical, then there really are NOT any consequences.

I ask again:
A muslim and a non-muslim make the same decisions in life in how they treat others etc.
The muslim gets to paradise.
Does the non-muslim, who's heard about the quran and islam and consequently rejected it, have any chance of getting to paradise also?

..and G-d knows best what our true intentions actually are.

So let's explore it anyway...
What are your intentions? When you do good or make moral choices, what motivates you to do so? Why do good? Is it because you want an afterlife reward? Because you fear god's wrath? Why?

 

[muhammad_isa]

What are your intentions? When you do good or make moral choices, what motivates you to do so? Why do good? Is it because you want an afterlife reward? Because you fear god's wrath? Why?

Lots of questions.
G-d knows what my intentions are, and He knows what yours are.

I don't claim to be sinless, but I try.
I don't see how a person who denies the concept of sin, is on the same journey as a person who doesn't deny.

Anyhow, I'm not sure what this has to do with whether evolution is without purpose.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Lots of questions.

And no answers whatsoever. In fact, you even completely ignored all the questions asked, by deleting them from the quote.
And the questions you DID quote, you went out of you way again to dodge them.
So yeah....

G-d knows what my intentions are, and He knows what yours are.
I don't claim to be sinless, but I try.
I don't see how a person who denies the concept of sin, is on the same journey as a person who doesn't deny.

None of this is relevant to the questions asked.
You're dodging. Again.

Anyhow, I'm not sure what this has to do with whether evolution is without purpose.