Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What do you mean by CAN?

He's asking you if the husband is permitted to force his wife to have nonconsensual sex between the time she decides she wants a divorce and files one. Should he feel that that is his right whatever the law of the land? If so, should he feel free to act on it?

This can happen in any legal system.

You seem to prefer one where there are no legal ramifications for forced or coerced sex.

so a woman that accuses their husband of rape needs to prove that she did not give him consent. How does she do that, exactly?

She gets an attorney, who presents whatever testimony and physical evidence there is to a jury for a verdict. Where's the problem?

It would be a disgrace for a Muslim and his family.

To be accused of forcing his wife to have sex? Why? Do other Muslims reject your values? Or is it only the fact of it going public from the mouth of the wife that's the disgrace?

There is nothing wrong with the legal system I describe. It is preferable, imo, to a system where adultery and fornication are legal.

I prefer the opposite - rape illegal, adultery and fornication legal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So a cheater. How is this not immoral when you keep saying how special marriage is?

What are you on about?
Marriage is not "special" .. it is obligatory .. sexual intercourse outside of marriage is illegal.

 

[muhammad_isa]

She gets an attorney, who presents whatever testimony and physical evidence there is to a jury for a verdict. Where's the problem?

It seems that the only ones to benefit from all of this is the lawyers.
I assume that the husband will do the same .. or is he not entitled to a lawyer, because he's a man.. [ rhetorical ]

 

[Polymath257]

Yes .. but she has to get divorced from her first one.
A man can have more than one wife at the same time.

Can a woman have more than one husband?

Men and women have different physiology, obviously.
A healthy man can perform without interruption, while a woman cannot.

?????

 

[Polymath257]

What are you on about?
Marriage is not "special" .. it is obligatory .. sexual intercourse outside of marriage is illegal.

The more you say, the worse the system looks.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The more you say, the worse the system looks.

Your opinion.
You are used to your secular system, and feel superior to others.

The only reason I can think of as marriage being "special",
is if you have the choice to cohabit outside of marriage.

 

[muhammad_isa]

?????

I don't understand the question.

 

[Polymath257]

Your opinion.
You are used to your secular system, and feel superior to others.

Oh, the western system has plenty of things wrong with it. We could certainly learn from looking into other systems.

But, in this regard, yes, I do think the western system is far superior. it doesn't treat women as second class citizens. It doesn't excuse abuse.

The only reason I can think of as marriage being "special",
is if you have the choice to cohabit outside of marriage.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

What are you on about?
Marriage is not "special" .. it is obligatory .. sexual intercourse outside of marriage is illegal.

Um, not in the civilized world.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't understand the question.

I think you have the genders mixed up as to who has more ability to continue. It is a rare man that can cause a woman to plead for less.

Of course, if she isn't willing to begin with, the man may think otherwise. Some may think it better to pretend exhaustion than continue.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

@F1fan said "So a cheater. How is this not immoral when you keep saying how special marriage is?"
..which was in reply to my suggestion that a Muslim man might take a second wife, if his wife was "incapacitated"
in a sexual way.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think you have the genders mixed up as to who has more ability to continue. It is a rare man that can cause a woman to plead for less.

Of course, if she isn't willing to begin with, the man may think otherwise. Some may think it better to pretend exhaustion than continue.

I see. You misunderstand me.
I am referring to the fact that woman have times where they can't perform .. menses .. childbirth etc.

 

[Polymath257]

@F1fan said "So a cheater. How is this not immoral when you keep saying how special marriage is?"
..which was in reply to my suggestion that a Muslim man might take a second wife, if his wife was "incapacitated"
in a sexual way.

And can a woman take another husband?

 

[Polymath257]

I see. You misunderstand me.
I am referring to the fact that woman have times where they can't perform .. menses .. childbirth etc.

Hmmm....a woman certainly can have sex during menses. Childbirth and immediately after it is not a good idea.

So you are saying the man can't just wait?

 

[muhammad_isa]

And can a woman take another husband?

Why would they want to?
Who would be responsible for their welfare and children?

A Muslim man is responsible for his wife.
Any money that his wife earns is her own.
There is no shared wealth .. a woman's wealth can be spent as she desires, and she is not responsible for
rent/mortgage, food and what have you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you are saying the man can't just wait?

One might be waiting for a long time..

 

[Revoltingest]

Looking over this thread, it appears that generally
Islam leads to things that many atheists find immoral,
eg, raping one's wife, punishment for sex outside
marriage, beating one's wife.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Looking over this thread, it appears that generally
Islam leads to things that many atheists find immoral,
eg, raping one's wife, punishment for sex outside
marriage, beating one's wife.

I can only agree with one of the three i.e. punishment for sex outside marriage.

However, this doesn't happen very often.
The same as hands don't get cut off very often.

That doesn't mean that there are no thieves or fornicators.
Perhaps people are careful not to be caught .. but if they are..

The "beating one's wife" is illegal, unless like spanking a child for being naughty.
I suppose you'll be telling me that it is psychological violence.

I do not agree with it being illegal to spank a child, either.
I understand why it is illegal .. because a line has to be drawn.
There are too many mad people around losing control, and that is not acceptable.

However, we are not winning the battle against evil .. many children are growing up with no respect
for their elders.

 

[F1fan]

I can only agree with one of the three i.e. punishment for sex outside marriage.

However, this doesn't happen very often.
The same as hands don't get cut off very often.

That doesn't mean that there are no thieves or fornicators.
Perhaps people are careful not to be caught .. but if they are..

The "beating one's wife" is illegal, unless like spanking a child for being naughty.
I suppose you'll be telling me that it is psychological violence.

I do not agree with it being illegal to spank a child, either.
I understand why it is illegal .. because a line has to be drawn.
There are too many mad people around losing control, and that is not acceptable.

However, we are not winning the battle against evil .. many children are growing up with no respect
for their elders.

It's a bad example you set when husbands don't respect their wives. You can't refer to any battle against evil when your views tolerate husbands mistreating their wives sexually against their will. Your example teaches that respect is conditional.

 

[F1fan]

What are you on about?
Marriage is not "special" .. it is obligatory .. sexual intercourse outside of marriage is illegal.

What makes sex illegal unless parties are married? Your solution to wives who refuse or can't have sex is for husbands to get married to other women. It's an odd requirement and certainly does not sound special. It's just red tape the way you present it. Marriage is in essence a license to have sex. Why not just have a sex license and make that a moral code? The code condones rape so it's not as if decency is important. Are these rules you advocate for in the Quran?