Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Atheists get vilified as a category, which is of course prejudice. It's clear that atheists can be moral and actually have a more nuanced and practical moral framework than some theists. The issue of human rights does seem to be part of this disagreement as many religions date back to traditions that did not value basic human rights and equality.

I think a question is how well a religion works in modern societies, and if they are useful or a liability to social cohesion.

And that some atheists can have a worse moral frame work than some theists.
The problem is not really religion, because in practice that is a subset of ideology or worldview. The problem is ideology and morality as such.

 

[F1fan]

Mmm .. perhaps this is the crux of the matter.
Is the act of sexual intercourse purely for pleasure, or is there some other purpose?

Sex is a natural impulse for mammals, including humans. We humans do like the exverience of sex and is a way to build intimacy. There is no moral issue with sex outside of marriage except for what social traditions prohibit, and this is typically due to religion. As we know the influence of religious prohibition has been ignored through history.

The advent of the pill, has encouraged us to think that we can have our pleasure without consequence,
which is not true. There is always a consequence.
Our emotional health is important, as is social security and that of the family.

That's freedom, and citizens have to manage their own maturity. Societies have their own problems with the immaturity of citizens, especially the young, but religion surely doesn't have practical solutions. Religionsntend to offer authoritarian and idealistic solutions that will not work unless there are extreme punishments. Even then we see example in Muslim theoscrcies of women being puninshed for wanting liberty.

18-Year-Old Muslim Girl Executed by Family in “Honor Killing”

Young Arab women must toe a very narrow line or risk bringing “shame” on their family—which could result in their being murdered by their own relatives. “Honor killing” is a plague that cont

besacenter.org

ODU organization to host candlelight vigil in honor of woman killed over hijab

Now, women across Iran are protesting by burning their hijabs or cutting their hair in a statement of "No to the Islamic Republic," according to reports.

www.13newsnow.com

How a Muslim Woman Was "Honor-Killed" by Her Father Because He Believed She Was Too Americanized

Noor Almaleki typed a text message to a friend. "Dude," she wrote at 1:06 p.m. last October 20, "my dad is here at the welfare office." Noor, 20, hadn't seen her father, Faleh, since moving out of the family home in Glendale months earlier. His presence both startled and alarmed...

www.phoenixnewtimes.com

"Iran: Former child bride faces execution by hanging" - Women Living Under Muslim Laws calls for action

"Iran: Former child bride faces execution by hanging" - Women Living Under Muslim Laws calls for action

www.girlsnotbrides.es

These stories don't give us a good impression of Islam and the treatment of girls and women.

You know very well what it is..
It's the joining together of a man and woman in Holy matrimony.
G-d has ordained love between man & wife.
They bring up their offspring.

That is a traditional belief of marriage. You call it "holy matrimony" but also that Muslim men can marry multiple women just to get their fix for sex. Not very holy, is it?

You know very well it doesn't.
A man who attacks women and forces them to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage is not condoned.
You merely attempt to make fools out of believers.
..while in reality, you make a fool of yourself.

Oh, don't be like that. You make a fool out of your own belief all by yourself. Numerous members are giving you rope, and you are hanging yourself with it. No matter how you try to save face, you have already shown your type of Islam is toxic and immoral due to a lack of basic human rights.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Religion is not a part of marriage.

Speak for yourself..
What was the point of introducing the institution of marriage in Western society?
Was it not based on Christian moral values?
Why would there need to be a register etc?
What purpose does it serve?
Financial perks? Is that it?

..but that is not a legitimate concern of the church and it has no say in that outside of the lives of its adherents.

..in a modern secular society, you are correct.
That is because society no longer holds these moral values.
It has lost its way, and time will show whether I'm right or not.
We already see the signs of a disintegrating society .. mass shootings .. climate change .. greed.

Anybody who attacks anybody else is to be arrested and prosecuted. Their gender, purpose, and marital status are irrelevant.

Of course .. but you want to play games, and make it about sexual intercourse .. which it isn't.
It's about violent behaviour.

He says that your understanding of marriage condones rape.

You can say what you like. It's lies.

I'm sure he's using his and civilized society's definition of rape, not yours.

No. You want to make sexual intercourse legal outside of marriage, and that is the agenda of
twisting it all for your own agenda.
G-d is aware of the intention of all.

No, but you do. Your problem is that what you described as acceptable to you is considered rape by the majority..

The majority of people who live in the West, who consider sexual intercourse outside of marriage acceptable, maybe.

It is quite obvious to me, and I'm sure most policemen, that a man who attacks women and rapes them in public places
is a menace to society, and should be caught and severely reprimanded.
You are comparing the mistreatment of a woman by their husband as being "no different or worse".
..which is ridiculous ..

..but then, you couldn't give a hoot whether somebody is married or not .. you want to make the job of the police
more or less impossible, by making them investigate domestic tiffs, where a man and a woman fight in court agaist each other, making lawyers rich, and their children poor.

 

[F1fan]

And that some atheists can have a worse moral frame work than some theists.

Atheists rely on their own moral sense, and they recognize themselves as the authority for their moral views and actions. There is no god to pass on the blame to in the "I was just following orders" excuse we often hear. Ths current topic of focus illustrates this, that a husband has the right to force sex on his wife. That attitude comes from religion, and the religion comes from God, and no mortal can question God. Women are put to death for violating some of these rules.

If an atheist steals or kills they are doing it for their own reasons, not following a God's dictates.

The problem is not really religion, because in practice that is a subset of ideology or worldview. The problem is ideology and morality as such.

There are many problems, but to hone it down to a basic issue I would say a lack of emotional intelligence is why any given human acts in harmful ways against others, assuming no mental illness as a cause.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Atheists rely on their own moral sense, and they recognize themselves as the authority for their moral views and actions. There is no god to pass on the blame to in the "I was just following orders" excuse we often hear. Ths current topic of focus illustrates this, that a husband has the right to force sex on his wife. That attitude comes from religion, and the religion comes from God, and no mortal can question God. Women are put to death for violating some of these rules.

If an atheist steals or kills they are doing it for their own reasons, not following a God's dictates.

There are many problems, but to hone it down to a basic issue I would say a lack of emotional intelligence is why any given human acts in harmful ways against others, assuming no mental illness as a cause.

You do know that the claim of objective authority in practice is not limited to religion, right?
God can be a variant of objective authority and not all atheists are subjective when it comes to morality.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Mmm .. perhaps this is the crux of the matter.
Is the act of sexual intercourse purely for pleasure, or is there some other purpose?

The advent of the pill, has encouraged us to think that we can have our pleasure without consequence,
which is not true. There is always a consequence.
Our emotional health is important, as is social security and that of the family.

We can infer from the "design" of human sexuality that pleasure is certainly part of it:

Many mammals - including some of our closest relatives - have overt ovulation: there are obvious signs when a female is fertile. Not so with humans; we have covert ovulation.

Also, many mammals go into heat/estrus: they're only even interested in sex at fertile times. Not so with humans; we're in "heat" all the time, even when sex is unlikely to produce offspring.

If one were to assume that a designer designed human beings to be the way we are, we would have to infer that this designer wants us to have lots of unprocreative sex.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Not so with humans; we're in "heat" all the time, even when sex is unlikely to produce offspring..

That is not my experience .. yours may be different.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is not my experience .. yours may be different.

Do you only get aroused when your wife ovulating, or do you get aroused at other times?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Do you only get aroused when your wife ovulating, or do you get aroused at other times?

I'm an old man .. I can't quite remember.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm an old man .. I can't quite remember.

I find this surprising. Online, you come off as someone who either has little experience of women or only knows about them theoretically.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I find this surprising. Online, you come off as someone who either has little experience of women or only knows about them theoretically.

My six daughters were not born in a test-tube.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Your opinion.
You are used to your secular system, and feel superior to others.

The only reason I can think of as marriage being "special",
is if you have the choice to cohabit outside of marriage.

You remind me of several evangelical conservative Christians I know and have known in the past. You remind me of these Christians because the more you reveal your religious views by openly discussing them, the more damage you do to the public's perception of your religion and to your own reputation.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the more you reveal your religious views by openly discussing them, the more damage you do to the public's perception of your religion and to your own reputation.

I'm not giving out sweeties or trying to recruit..
Everybody can think for themselves.

We all see what we see .. nothing can be done about that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My six daughters were not born in a test-tube.

More surprises. The attitudes you've expressed in this thread do not seem well-aligned with the idea that there are girls or women in your life whose well-being you care about.

Edit: until this page of the thread, I had you pegged for a 20-year-old unmarried guy who was sure he knew all there is to know about women. When I asked you about your wife, I fully expected you to say that you aren't actually married.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

More surprises. The attitudes you've expressed in this thread do not seem well-aligned with the idea that there are girls or women in your life whose well-being you care about.

I agree.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The attitudes you've expressed in this thread do not seem well-aligned with the idea that there are girls or women in your life whose well-being you care about.

Yeah .. "us" Muslims don't care about our families .. we are all monsters.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Yeah .. "us" Muslims don't care about our families .. we are all monsters.

As has been pointed out to you many times, marital rape isn't something that Muslims categorically accept as unharmful or doctrinal, and there are many Muslims in many countries across the world that don't share your particular bizarre and gross view on what constitutes spousal abuse.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..marital rape isn't something that Muslims categorically accept as unharmful or doctrinal..

..because there does not have to be a separate law.
Violence to the person is violence to the person .. sexual consent does not come into it.

Sexual consent is only an issue in secular societies, where marriage is not relevant,
and is not considered as implicit consent .. it is in effect an "optional extra".

The police then have to deal with cases of a domestic nature, where women want to prosecute their husbands for a sexual crime, whilst in their bedrooms.
She said .. he said etc. perhaps there should be audio recording in the bedroom, to prove one way or the other.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

..because there does not have to be a separate law.
Violence to the person is violence to the person .. sexual consent does not come into it.

Sexual consent is only an issue in secular societies, where marriage is not relevant,
and is not considered as implicit consent .. it is in effect an "optional extra".

The police then have to deal with cases of a domestic nature, where women want to prosecute their husbands for a sexual crime, whilst in their bedrooms.
She said .. he said etc. perhaps there should be audio recording in the bedroom, to prove one way or the other.

Sexual consent is relevent in all countries, because marriage is not and should not be considered 'implicit consent' anywhere. That view is genuinely harmful and should be rejected as such. And are being rejected even in Muslim majority countries.

All rape, including rape done by a spouse is and should be investigated and prosecuted if evidence such as witness testimony, defensive wounds, etc can be established.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah .. "us" Muslims don't care about our families .. we are all monsters.

As I think I mentioned before, the attitudes you've expressed are things I've never gotten from the Muslims I know in real life.

Regardless of whether you feel like your views are religiously motivated, this really does seem to be a "you" thing, not an "all Muslims" thing.