Does anyone still believe that the war in Iraq was justified?

[angellous_evangellous]

Just curious.

In light of all the evidence to the contrary, how can anyone believe that the war in Iraq was justified?

If so, we should go to war with ourselves.

note: Report Finds Troubling Rise In Teen Uranium Enrichment | Onion News Network

 

[Caladan]

I'm not sure, Nate. what justification are you looking for?
Modern US. has long overcame the rebel years of expelling the British from North America. it has outbred the generation of WWII. modern American wars are based on economic privileges. what the British cannot do anymore. the Americans today do.
from economic standpoint. it makes a logical and natural case. the Americans have the manpower and economic leverage to secure petrol in a reasonable economical frame for the American industry, from nations such as Saudi Arabia. and to raise the flag in nations such as Iraq, which carry an important region, Kurdistan, which is the location in which most of the Iraqi oil is located. further more the Kurds have been eager to work with the Israelis and the Americans on establishing an independent identity. the geopolitical and economical implications of this are vast. Jews around the world have been lobbying for a long time for the protection of the Kurds under the harsh regime of Saddam Hussein. the Kurds and Israelis have maintained a long relation, which has spanned shared military experience to political implications to the region.

 

[Madhuri]

Out of curiosity, did Americans realise that most of the world thought it was unjustified even prior to it happening?
It was a very big issue here in Aus. About 70% of the population were against getting involved and people were marching in protest against it because we believed it was completely unjustified.

 

[Debunker]

Just curious.

In light of all the evidence to the contrary, how can anyone believe that the war in Iraq was justified?

If so, we should go to war with ourselves.

note: Report Finds Troubling Rise In Teen Uranium Enrichment | Onion News Network

The people in Iraq think so. Most Americans think so. The leaders in the Middle East thought so (they said something about cutting the head off of the serpent), and I think so. Some say that Bush's idealism sparked all the tyrants being overthrown in the Middle East as we speak. If that is truth, then you would have to say Iraq had a very positive effect on the Middle East, if of course you believe it is better to be free. It just seems that it is impossible to educate the people with mass communication of freedom and prevent the march of freedom.

If this is true, Iraq may prove to be the most positive historical event of all times. That would make GWB one of the world's greatest leaders of all time. He is already one of America's greatest presidents, although Ronald Reagan is considered America's greatest president at the present time. But, in the future, after the liberal press vanishes from the face of modern politics, GWB's achievements in Iraq may match Reagan's achievements against the USSR. Aren't you just proud to have two great world heroes in America like Reagan and Bush in one decade?

One thing for sure, the war in Iraq and the the victory in the cold war that Reagan and GWB pulled off will set the standard for American presidents that want to keep America out in front of world leadership in defense of democracy. With that example it will be easy to see any American leader that would hold back their support of a people seeking freedom. like in Iran.

We have learned from history, it is not a safe and secure position to wait on our European allies to lead. Traditionally they have always been too late. We just hope Obama will learn something from the good example that GWB left him in Iraq. Do you think Obama has learned anything from Reagan and Bush that will help him defend Americans from Muslim terrorism or piracy on the high seas? As to date, he still cowers in the corner with the absent patriots.

 

[gnomon]

Just curious.

In light of all the evidence to the contrary, how can anyone believe that the war in Iraq was justified?

If so, we should go to war with ourselves.

note: Report Finds Troubling Rise In Teen Uranium Enrichment | Onion News Network

I don't recall ever believing that the war with Iraq was justified. I didn't know much about the issues at the time.

I went along with the action against the Taliban like many others but looking back I don't see justification for that conflict as well.

But I had just finished a short jail sentence and was back in treatment two days before the terrorist attacks and didn't officially leave such treatment until both wars had been engaged.

 

[T-Dawg]

The people in Iraq think so. Most Americans think so. The leaders in the Middle East thought so (they said something about cutting the head off of the serpent), and I think so. Some say that Bush's idealism sparked all the tyrants being overthrown in the Middle East as we speak. If that is truth, then you would have to say Iraq had a very positive effect on the Middle East, if of course you believe it is better to be free. It just seems that it is impossible to educate the people with mass communication of freedom and prevent the march of freedom.

If this is true, Iraq may prove to be the most positive historical event of all times. That would make GWB one of the world's greatest leaders of all time. He is already one of America's greatest presidents, although Ronald Reagan is considered America's greatest president at the present time. But, in the future, after the liberal press vanishes from the face of modern politics, GWB's achievements in Iraq may match Reagan's achievements against the USSR. Aren't you just proud to have two great world heroes in America like Reagan and Bush in one decade?

One thing for sure, the war in Iraq and the the victory in the cold war that Reagan and GWB pulled off will set the standard for American presidents that want to keep America out in front of world leadership in defense of democracy. With that example it will be easy to see any American leader that would hold back their support of a people seeking freedom. like in Iran.

We have learned from history, it is not a safe and secure position to wait on our European allies to lead. Traditionally they have always been too late. We just hope Obama will learn something from the good example that GWB left him in Iraq. Do you think Obama has learned anything from Reagan and Bush that will help him defend Americans from Muslim terrorism or piracy on the high seas? As to date, he still cowers in the corner with the absent patriots.

You realize, of course, that "if this is true" is a very doubtable statement, given the context. As has already been said, the vast majority of the world disapproves of the US involvement in Iraq.
As for the Iraqis themselves, with a quick google, I was surprised to find that there are more pro-US than anti-US Iraqis, but it's hardly the overwhelming wave of gratitude and joy that you describe.
ABCNEWS.com : Poll: Iraqis Report Better Postwar Life

Also, it is very doubtable that Reagan won the Cold War. I think the Soviets crushed themselves well enough without outside help. Reagan supported terrorists and dictators in his quest to rid the world of the USSR, which was not good.
(Somehow, I believe this discussion has already been had, has it not?)

Also, since when was it the Europeans that were late? It was the Americans that were latecomers in both of the world wars.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm not sure, Nate. what justification are you looking for?

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. The only way to evaluate the justification for the war is to review the justifications that were given for it back in 2002.

Since the ends never justify the means, we can't use an auxiliary positive outcome to justify a war that never should have taken place.

Maybe now with all the protests bringing people freedom, the Iraqi people could have called for freedom themselves without all the gratuitous bloodshed and destruction.

 

[LuisDantas]

A fair percentage of Brazilians still seems to half-believe that the Towers were put down by some secret operation of the US government.

 

[Caladan]

A fair percentage of Brazilians still seems to half-believe that the Towers were put down by some secret operation of the US government.

Well considering they love to run around half naked a few days before Easter and decorate themselves with large feathers. I don't find it surprising.
people love to believe the absurd. and act on it as well.

 

[Madhuri]

A fair percentage of Brazilians still seems to half-believe that the Towers were put down by some secret operation of the US government.

Crazier things have happened. Not saying it's true, but it isn't impossible either. The American government wanted this war pretty badly. There were a lot of lies and corruption involved in making it happen. I don't think it's to far fetched to put something that disgusting past the government.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well considering they love to run around half naked a few days before Easter and decorate themselves with large feathers. I don't find it surprising.
people love to believe the absurd. and act on it as well.

If I am to be brutally honest about it, Caladan, the truth is that Brazilians are as politically imature as they come.

 

[LuisDantas]

Crazier things have happened.

They did for sure. But even the GWB government would be unlikely to go quite so far.

Although, come to think of it, Iran-Contras happened under Reagan's watch and ye somehow Ronnie is considered a moral reference for the GOP these days...

 

[Revoltingest]

They did for sure. But even the GWB government would be unlikely to go quite so far.
Although, come to think of it, Iran-Contras happened under Reagan's watch and ye somehow Ronnie is considered a moral reference for the GOP these days...

It would be a mistake to condemn a president for doing business with thugs without thorough analysis. As past wars have shown,
the greatest good sometimes results from cooperating with unsavory types. Compared to other presidents, Reagan looks pretty
good....& I voted against him.

 

[Debunker]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. The only way to evaluate the justification for the war is to review the justifications that were given for it back in 2002.

Since the ends never justify the means, we can't use an auxiliary positive outcome to justify a war that never should have taken place.

Maybe now with all the protests bringing people freedom, the Iraqi people could have called for freedom themselves without all the gratuitous bloodshed and destruction.

Is that what Obama is counting on in Iran?Do you really think his cowering the corner and waiting on the Europeans for leadership will promote freedom in the Middle East. In recent history Europe does nothing unless the USA leads. The Europeans' economy is in more trouble than the USA's by far. They will do nothing on their own and the Muslims will rise up and fill the vacuum left by the USA's failure to respond. Who will be blamed for this failure? GWB, of course.

Sorry if I am off topic but I am only trying to save your thread as I think it a good one and worthy of discussion. But the war in Iraq is over and it is time to see some value in its outcome. It is too late to ask if it was justified. We, the whole USA, the people of this great land must make the best of the war effort. For our own interest, America and the Western World must step forward to manage the march of freedom or the Muslim Brotherhood and Iran certainly will. As long as Iran sees Obama as a weakish leader. are there any doubts that they will become bolder and more aggressive? Have we learned nothing from Iraq and the rest of our wars?

It is not so simple as a debate here on this forum.The futire of the world's freedom is in jepordy if the West makes the big mistake by simply hoping that the evil empires will simply wise up and stop being tyrants. We can not aford to be patient if we wish to avoid a real third world war. There does come a no turning back point in history. Many civilizations have learned too late and found this fact to be so true. Will the USA ever learn? Has Obama led us into the point of no return with his apologetic attitude for American idealism? We shall see and not in the far off future as Iran moves its armies into position to attack Isreal and the Great Satan (USA). The Iranians are not debating the war in Iraq. Iran and the Brotherhood know what they want and they are on the move.

 

[Debunker]

A fair percentage of Brazilians still seems to half-believe that the Towers were put down by some secret operation of the US government.

Where did that come from. The Brazilians could be fools and that belief would prove it.

 

[ninerbuff]

The war in Iraq was a "get Saddam because he threatened my dad" retaliation and at US expense. WMD's and Saddam being a threat to the world was a great cover though.

 

[Autodidact]

The people in Iraq think so. Most Americans think so. The leaders in the Middle East thought so (they said something about cutting the head off of the serpent), and I think so. ....

Tell me the truth, Debunker. You're a parody, right?

O.K. time for a fact or two:
Poll: Most Americans Say Iraq War Was a Mistake

60% think Iraq war was wrong, poll shows

A Zogby International/Arab American Institute poll of five Arab nations, which was released in March showed that the Arab opinion on the U.S. role in Iraq received a higher negative than how Arab’s view Iran’s influence in Iraq. The negative responses reached 68 percent in Saudi Arabia to 96 percent in Jordan. Other Arab nations polled included Egypt, United Arab Emirates and Lebanon.
Iraqis believe, by an overwhelming margin of 78 to 21 percent, that the US military presence is "provoking more conflict that it is preventing."

June 2004: 67 percent of Iraqis strongly or somewhat oppose the presence of Coalition troops; 30 percent support. (Iraq Centre for Research & Strategic Studies)

According to a January 2007 BBC World Service poll of more than 26,000 people in 25 countries, 73% of the global population disapproved of U.S. handling of the Iraq War [wiki]

According to polls conducted by the Arab American Institute, four years after the invasion of Iraq, 83% of Egyptians had a negative view of the U.S. role in Iraq; 68% of Saudi Arabians had a negative view; 96% of the Jordanian population had a negative view; 70% of the population of the United Arab Emirates and 76% of the Lebanese population also described their view as negative. [wiki]
From 2005 to 2007, polls consistently showed that a majority of Iraqis opposed the U.S. invasion.[365][366][367] [wiki]


March-April 2004: 46 percent say the US invasion has done more harm than good; 33 percent say more good. (Gallup) [same source]

But you go ahead with your views, Debunker, and don't let a little thing like facts disturb you. After all, President Bush didn't.

 

[Quagmire]

... Most Americans think so...

According to who? Not according to the last 5 years of CNN polls:

CNN Poll: 47% of Americans think Iraq war is not morally justified - Democratic Underground

Iraq

or

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5189004/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula..._States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq#December_2008

(now, of course, you'll say that the people who voted "no" aren't real Americans)

 

[Debunker]

Crazier things have happened. Not saying it's true, but it isn't impossible either. The American government wanted this war pretty badly. There were a lot of lies and corruption involved in making it happen. I don't think it's to far fetched to put something that disgusting past the government.

Well, you are not a citizen of this country either and besides this, the Muslim Terrorist have taken credit for 9/11. What you say appears to be blind anti-Americanism. It is unfair to disrespect America as such as much as it has done to protect your freedoms. If you think terrorism can not reach down under, you best think again.

 

[Levite]

Does anyone still believe that the war in Iraq was justified?

Still?

That implies I ever thought it was justified.

I still remember when all of a sudden there was a supposed Iraq connection to 9/11 being brought up, and thinking, "What a load of crap. What the hell would a resolutely secular autocrat like Saddam Hussein be doing in cahoots with a bunch of radical Islamic terrorists? This is the stupidest excuse for a war I've ever heard, and I can't believe all these people are swallowing manufactured evidence from an administration that stole and cheated their way into office."

Haven't seen or heard anything yet to change my mind.