Do you understand the New Testament

[AK4]

sojourner
The Bible isn't a Model T. A closer analogy would be the inclusion of several makes and models of the most exemplary cars in a collection that displays the history of the automobile and its impact on human society.

What?!!! You was good until you said “that displays the history of the automobile and its impact on human society.” Now if you replace that with “is under the one control of one CEO or Supreme Head person (no other investors etc.) and they follow his instructions for that whole company under one goal/plan and they follow his instructions to “tee”.

Human intellect allows us to engage in two important aspects of "understanding the Bible." One is exegesis, as I've pointed out. This closely resembles what you say in your second sentence. The other aspect is gaining a theological understanding. The second, in order to be true, depends upon the first. Exegesis does not give us theological understanding. But it does provide a base upon which theology is built.

You seem to be skipping the first, foundational step. Therefore, your theology is skewed, because you're trying to understand something you haven't measured or appreciated for its social or literary merits.

First off even human intellect is given by God so God had given this intellect to do massive readings and study and even do as the prodigal son did and follow religions and beliefs that I thought were right (hint hint---sell all your possessions and follow me). It took all that intellect to be able to see how the lies of the church either got started, got into the church, has its roots etc etc. It took all that plus His spirit to come to the knowledge of the truth. Its kinda axiomatic… to know what the truth is you have to know the lies are. To know what hot is you have to know what cold is

And your methodology takes you further and further away from your fellows and creates deeper and deeper division. The Bible was never meant to do that.

You are speaking unscriptural again (well at least for this age)

Mt 10:34 - Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Also all the parables show this. At the consummation of the ages though there will be no division

 

[Oberon]

Come on, you claim to know and speak these languages fluently

No, I claim to be able to read them. I know very few experts of Latin who can speak it, and none of greek or ancient hebrew. We study these languages to read them, not to speak. Let's be clear about that.

but cant even see that Lucifer isn’t even a Hebrew word. There is no Hebrew word for Lucifer so there is no reason for the insertion of this canaatite deity at all.

'
And this is just wrong. Jupiter is a latin word. Zeus is Greek. Yet the two gods were seen as being similar enough to use the name of one for the other. The same is true here. Helel is a god similar enough to Lucifer to make the same switch.

Whatever it doesnt matter even if that was the reason because that whole passage is talking about the king of Babylon

Yes, and the king is compared to Helel, the canaatite god, who in latin would be lucifer, the roman god.

Next notice throughout the whole bible satan is called satan, the devil, and serpent but curiously THE CHURCH decided to ADD OR MAKE the LATIN (not Hebrew) word, which the Hebrew is a noun, (and its not even a proper noun) LUCIFER INTO SCRIPTURE. Why don’t people think about these things. Curiously, somehow and in some way the church decided that at verse 12 it starts talking about satan. What a crock.

Throughout the OT, Satan has entirely different role than in christian thought, as satan is a servent of Yahweh. Also, the devil is a greek word, so your complaint about the latin while being ok with the greek seems strange.

 

[AK4]

sojourner
The Church -- like all human communities, contains both good and bad, just as Matthew quotes Jesus as saying. Unlike you, I choose to follow Jesus' advice to let the tares grow among the wheat, and trust God to take care of it in due season.

Wow and you don’t see in that parable the many (called) and the few (called and chosen)? You just said it was the church soooooo….

You obviously know far, far more about it than I, because I have wasted my money and time on people who've spent a lifetime studying the parables and the gospels. It's further obvious in your disdain for the Body of Christ on Earth. So be it. Go ahead and be the only one who's "right" and separate your sheepy little self from we goats. In the meantime, the rest of us will concern ourselves more with loving God and loving our neighbor and not concern ourselves so much with who's "right."

The only way I separate myself from “that church” is by their doctrines and vain worship. I am not out here trying to show I am more right than anyone. Actually it is helping me do what is at the bottom of all my posts--- the last sentence is where I am now at thank you. And If anything I am trying to get some of you to actually see and judge for yourselves if what you have been taught or even come to conclusion yourself if it is right according to the Word of God. To….

2Co 5:16 - … yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more

I dunno... Sounds like what I said to me. "They don't get it. So I feed them riddles, because they have neither seen nor heard, nor understood." Riddles get our imaginations going. Riddles help us solve problems and see different perspectives.

Okay, but not all in the church will solve the riddles. And to God there is only one perspective that matters…His.

A teacher doesn't teach so that the students will not understand. That's foolishness writ large. God has a plan that involves the reconciliation of humanity.

All will understand and come to the knowledge of the truth eventually. We agree on that, but I guess you are assuming that this is the only day/age/eon of salvation and this is not true according to scripture. So in this age most will not “get the riddles” even those in the church

Of course God is mystery, because we cannot fully understand God.

Maybe not fully but like I said to those He has revealed Himself to you can see and understand “the mystery” that is God. Or should I say we can see why He is such a mystery to those who He hasn’t revealed Himself. The former church (ancient Israel) and the so-called church now through the workings of satan has made it almost impossible to know the mystery that is God. That’s why it takes His spirit.

Also that probably why after Christ hands over the kingdom there be no end to growth of His kingdom, learning and growing more and more into being like God

You're seeing one dimension of a three-dimensional figure.

Wow. Show where it says Elohim is three.

 

[AK4]

Let's take a look, shall we?
"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, (Mt. 5:16)
Creator of heaven and Earth. (Gen 1)
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son (Jn 3:16)
our Lord. (Jn 13:13)
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. (Mt 1:18)
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucifed, died and was buried. (Lk 22:63-65;23:33,53)
On the third day, he rose again. (Mt 17:23)
He ascended into heaven (Lk 24:51)
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. (Mk 16:19)
He will come again to judge the living and the dead. (Jn 14:3;I Pet 4:5)
I believe in the Holy Spirit, (Acts 2:4)
the holy catholic church, (Mt 16:18)
the communion of saints, (Acts 2:42)
the forgiveness of sins, (Col 1:14)
the resurrection of the body, (Job 19:26)
and the life everlasting. (Jn 3:16)

Sorry. All scriptural. Every last bit of it.

Interesting that you left out one of the critical lines that was in the original “descended into hell” (I will comment on that later) so tell me which of these three is right since I am seeing 3 different versions? LOL The one you post is one of the 3.

Text of the Creed in Latin

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem, Creatorem caeli et terrae,
et in Iesum Christum, Filium Eius unicum, Dominum nostrum,
qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria Virgine,
passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus,
descendit ad ínferos, tertia die resurrexit a mortuis,
ascendit ad caelos, sedet ad dexteram Patris omnipotentis,
inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum,
sanctam Ecclesiam catholicam, sanctorum communionem,
remissionem peccatorum,
carnis resurrectionem,
vitam aeternam.
Amen.[13]

Book of Common Prayer [16][17][18]
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
Common Worship[19]
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

You purport to bow to the Bible. Doesn't that make the Bible a whore, just as bowing to doctrine makes doctrine a whore?

What? Yeah if that’s what you wanna believe. *sarcasm* . Besides theres a big difference between bible and scriptures.

What makes you think you're translation efforts are any better? In fact, they are not.

I guess. All one has to know is if it contradicts anything in the Word spiritually then it must be a bad translation because unlike you my God is not a God of contradiction

The Torah is part of the "one book -- the Bible."

Yeah I got the name wrong, it was alluding me and I didn’t think torah was right anyway. I meant the Talmud

Don't you think perceptions change? We have a completely different perception for what it means for "God to provide for us" than ancient subsistance farmers.

Ours may change but that don’t make it right to try to change God.

 

[sojourner]

What?!!! You was good until you said “that displays the history of the automobile and its impact on human society.” Now if you replace that with “is under the one control of one CEO or Supreme Head person (no other investors etc.) and they follow his instructions for that whole company under one goal/plan and they follow his instructions to “tee”.

No, I said exactly what I meant to say. The rest is implied, in a well-run organization.

First off even human intellect is given by God so God had given this intellect to do massive readings and study and even do as the prodigal son did and follow religions and beliefs that I thought were right (hint hint---sell all your possessions and follow me).

It's not enough for it to be "God-given." You have to actually utilize it.

It took all that plus His spirit to come to the knowledge of the truth.

...As you see it. I see that truth differently.

You are speaking unscriptural again (well at least for this age)

Mt 10:34 - Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That passage doesn't give any of us license to create division, buy into it, or maintain it.

Also all the parables show this.

No, they don't.

Wow and you don’t see in that parable the many (called) and the few (called and chosen)? You just said it was the church soooooo….

That's not the lesson of the parable, no.

The only way I separate myself from “that church” is by their doctrines and vain worship.

You forgot to add the word "perceived" before "doctrines" and "vain worship," or the phrase "as I perceive them" after both.
It is your perception of the "deceit" that causes the division.
The church, along with its doctrines and worship, was here long, long before you were. Therefore, if it weren't for you, the Church would still continue along it's Spirit-guided path undismissed by you.

I am not out here trying to show I am more right than anyone.

But you are trying to prove that the Church's doctrine and worship are wrong. The result is the same -- division.

Actually it is helping me do what is at the bottom of all my posts

Only if it's done correctly.

And If anything I am trying to get some of you to actually see and judge for yourselves if what you have been taught or even come to conclusion yourself if it is right according to the Word of God.

We've all done that a long, long time ago, and found nothing wanting...

Okay, but not all in the church will solve the riddles. And to God there is only one perspective that matters…His.

Which is what the parable of the Sower says. But the seed is still the Word, and the hearers are still part of the Church. And the Sower still plants...

All will understand and come to the knowledge of the truth eventually. We agree on that, but I guess you are assuming that this is the only day/age/eon of salvation and this is not true according to scripture. So in this age most will not “get the riddles” even those in the church

well, I'm not a dispensationalist, but this may be the second thing we agree on.

The former church (ancient Israel) and the so-called church now through the workings of satan has made it almost impossible to know the mystery that is God. That’s why it takes His spirit.

I disagree! The Church has certainly helped me to gain a greater understanding of God, myself and others. The Church doesn't take God's Spirit -- it gives the Spirit!

Also that probably why after Christ hands over the kingdom there be no end to growth of His kingdom, learning and growing more and more into being like God

I, and many others have experienced spiritual growth...

Wow. Show where it says Elohim is three.

For starters, elohim isn't a name. It is a Hebrew term with a plural ending. the el part means "God" (loosely translated). The im makes it plural.

 

[sojourner]

Book of Common Prayer [16][17][18]
I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.
Common Worship[19]
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Sorry. I left that line out. But there is scriptural basis for it.

It makes no difference whether the wording is "hell" or "dead." They both refer to those bereft of life.

My point still stands. The Creed is scriptural in its entirety. There is nothing heretical or false about it. It is ancient. The Churchs that espouse the creed espouse the basic beliefs of the Christian Church.

What? Yeah if that’s what you wanna believe. *sarcasm* . Besides theres a big difference between bible and scriptures.

If bowing to doctrine is whorish, then bowing to scripture is also whorish.

All one has to know is if it contradicts anything in the Word spiritually then it must be a bad translation because unlike you my God is not a God of contradiction

Not necessarily. On either count.

Ours may change but that don’t make it right to try to change God.

Nobody's "changing God." But our perceptions of God do change.

 

[free spirit]

.

Because Jesus is presented by that religion

No... Because any religion teaches you faith.

Ok. We've always done that.

How sad for you. And yet, you think you might be called to teach others about God? 'f I were you, I'd get busy looking!

I am happy for you, You are a chosen instrument of God

Jesus didn't forsake his disciples when they didn't "get" him. Nor did he when they acted contrary.

Yes Peter was reinstated after his denial.
Or you do not.

You're not a teacher. A teacher is prepared to learn as much from his pupils as he teaches them.

Yes the Lord can teach you from the mouth of unbelievers also.

Then you need to find a different church -- making sure you're understanding correctly.

Some of them teach idolatry and some go round in circles. however they all have some truth for most of the pastors are sincere

Then prepare yourself to teach. (You may be surprised to find that the more you know, the more you know you know very little).

Yes I can tell you all of the gospel in one sentence (you must be holy for I am holy) do that and you shall have eternal life.

BTW, one doesn't "teach" spirituality. One guides, facilitates, and discerns. Not so simple.

Yes he must have a balance of courage and compassion, the courage is useful to correct those who sin.

He has authority -- not the authority, IMO.

He has the authority from men

The Church wrote, compiled, edited and canonized the scriptures. The Church has the "sense of the community" that it takes to interpret its own writings.

You looking at an organization structure, but the people out there is the real church.

No, they don't think that. But the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church by Christ.

Those "in authority" were not in authority. The gospels, in part, claim that the Church has the authority, especially through the Apostles.

Are you open to receive an Apostle not sent from men. or are you souspicious of true revelations.

We embrace similarities and allow great liberty with regard to perspective, belief, hermeneutic. We gather around Christ's Table as one Body. We respect the honest opinions of others. We allow people to be just who they are, and try to meet them where they are. We work for the unity of all God's people.

Diversity is good as long as we all are answering one call of our call, which is the call to repent.

The story of the prodigal has nothing to do with homosexuality.

how do you get homosexual in what i said I do not know. go back to my thread

The Law is encapsulated in "Love God -- love neighbor."

What about those who are not sinners, but who are misunderstood, or disliked? Are they welcome, as well?

All are welcome to him if they are answering the call of repentance

Jesus rails on hypocrisy, power-mongering, gate-keeping, judgmentalism, bigotry, and separation.

The body has to be one, love is the bond that unite the members, there is no room for the above sins.

He has not one thing to say about homosexuality.

Individual sins need not to be mentioned, because everyone knows what is sin, if you have a conscience it will make you aware of its presence.

You just can't let it go, can you? One has to wonder if you would be as hard on people who wear 50/50 cotton/poly shirts...

No you are the one that can not let go, in my last post I avoided to include that word, respecting your suggestion to keep it out of this thread.

 

[sojourner]

He has the authority from men

He has authority from the Church, which is the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

 

[free spirit]

Nobody's "changing God." But our perceptions of God do change

Sojourner if God does not change, but our perception of God changes, that is an admission that our previous perception was wrong.
If that is correct, how do you know that your present perception is correct; or are you continually evolving with this.

 

[sojourner]

Yes he must have a balance of courage and compassion, the courage is useful to correct those who sin.

What does this have to do with "one doesn't 'teach' spirituality?"

You looking at an organization structure, but the people out there is the real church.

Who have organized themselves into a large community that did those things.

Are you open to receive an Apostle not sent from men. or are you souspicious of true revelations.

An apostle is always sent by God through the Church. I listen to them and give them due consideration.

how do you get homosexual in what i said I do not know. go back to my thread

You've been referring to it, either explicitly or implicitly, for a while now.

All are welcome to him if they are answering the call of repentance

So the misunderstood and disliked have to repent of...what, exactly, if they're not sinners?

The body has to be one, love is the bond that unite the members, there is no room for the above sins.

and yet you have engaged in four of them in this very thread...

Individual sins need not to be mentioned, because everyone knows what is sin, if you have a conscience it will make you aware of its presence.

Hypocrisy, power-mongering, gate-keeping, judgmentalism and bigotry are all individual sins, which Christ mentioned numerous times...

No you are the one that can not let go, in my last post I avoided to include that word, respecting your suggestion to keep it out of this thread.

And still you imply it.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner if God does not change, but our perception of God changes, that is an admission that our previous perception was wrong.
If that is correct, how do you know that your present perception is correct; or are you continually evolving with this.

Not "wrong," necessarily. Merely either "incomplete" or "outmoded."
Faith is continually evolving.

 

[free spirit]

He has authority from the Church, which is the Body of Christ, by the Holy Spirit.

Since the Pope lost its terrestrial power his church has been better at teaching spiritual matters, but if he has the authority of the Holy Spirit don't you think that he would know the truth, and correct the lies in the New Testament that are detrimental to our Lord and God,
like this obvious one.
(I) In Matthew 6 – 13, part of it reads: “And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” The verse implies that God leads us into temptation, and the need to ask him not to do that, but to deliver us from evil.
But why should we ask him that? When we all know or should know that the evil of temptation is not in God’s character. For we read in Romans 2 – 4, “Or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance.”

And we read in James 1 – 13, “Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed (led) by his own lust.” And 2nd Peter 2 – 9, has no ambiguity of the true work of the Lord for we read: “The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under darkness for the Day of Judgment.”
So, I am only putting the record straight, in harmony with God’s true character, in accordance with his true scripture by partly restoring Matthew 6 – 13, to read: “And lead us into repentance, and deliver us from evil.”

The above verse now reflects the true work and character of our God, after all, we are talking about our Heavenly Father, therefore, we should know what he does and doesn’t do. I am sure; that an evil man, an enemy of Christ has cleverly inserted those lies in there so they would falsely assume the power of the sacred word. And prevent us to truly know and trust our God and father.

 

[free spirit]

Not "wrong," necessarily. Merely either "incomplete" or "outmoded."
Faith is continually evolving.

Faith is not outmoded, but is perfected at the speed in which you care to repent, which in turn requires faith to operate.

 

[sojourner]

Since the Pope lost its terrestrial power his church has been better at teaching spiritual matters, but if he has the authority of the Holy Spirit don't you think that he would know the truth, and correct the lies in the New Testament that are detrimental to our Lord and God,
like this obvious one.

What lies? The only error I see is the error in your interpretation of the passage.

 

[sojourner]

Faith is not outmoded, but is perfected at the speed in which you care to repent, which in turn requires faith to operate.

"Subde the earth" takes on a completely different meaning when we have the capability to destroy it. I'd say that faith, in light of knowledge and ability, can be outmoded. Another example is that God lives in the sky. Or that the heavens are a solid dome that rotate around the earth.

Repentance has little to do with that process.

 

[free spirit]

"Subde the earth" takes on a completely different meaning when we have the capability to destroy it. I'd say that faith, in light of knowledge and ability, can be outmoded. Another example is that God lives in the sky. Or that the heavens are a solid dome that rotate around the earth.

Repentance has little to do with that process.

I apologize for my ignorance but you lost me!

 

[free spirit]

What lies? The only error I see is the error in your interpretation of the passage.

Well I am listening to you so teach me the correct interpretation, I can assure you that I am teachable. I made my case destroy it if you can.

 

[sojourner]

Well I am listening to you so teach me the correct interpretation, I can assure you that I am teachable. I made my case destroy it if you can.

Here is what you said:

The verse implies that God leads us into temptation, and the need to ask him not to do that, but to deliver us from evil.

The word in question can be interpreted as "temptation." It can also be interpreted as "time of trial." My Greek Bible translates that word as "pressure."

In any case, the word (and the phrase) probably should be taken as a request for God to remove the evil impulse which causes us to sin, according to the Interpreter's Bible.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The funny thing is that both Koine Greek and modern English are painfully imprecise.

There will always be more than one way to read a passage in either language, often with more than one choice that has significant theological (or, most regretable, ethical) differences in interpretation.

One should therefore chose a HUMANE interpretative method that seeks to read the text that builds faith, hope, and love in the human community without causing harm or intellectual dishonesty. Several Christian traditions either ignore or destroy human identity and intellectual activity.

 

[maklelan]

The funny thing is that both Koine Greek and modern English are painfully imprecise.

I disagree. Koine Greek is far more precise than English and many other modern languages. It is not quite as intricate and prosaic as Classical Greek, but once the differences are understood it can be almost every bit as precise.

There will always be more than one way to read a passage in either language, often with more than one choice that has significant theological (or, most regretable, ethical) differences in interpretation.

I don't think it's quite as widespread as you make it out to be. Very few biblical texts are theologically or morally significant to begin with, and far fewer hinge upon choices between different acceptable interpretations.

One should therefore chose a HUMANE interpretative method that seeks to read the text that builds faith, hope, and love in the human community without causing harm or intellectual dishonesty.

But this presupposes such was without exception the intention of the author, which is not true.

Several Christian traditions either ignore or destroy human identity and intellectual activity.

The same can be said of any large religious tradition.