Do you understand the New Testament

[free spirit]

Here is what you said:

The word in question can be interpreted as "temptation." It can also be interpreted as "time of trial." My Greek Bible translates that word as "pressure."

In any case, the word (and the phrase) probably should be taken as a request for God to remove the evil impulse which causes us to sin, according to the Interpreter's Bible.

The evil impulses are removed by our repentance, it is written somewhere resist the devil and he will flee from you.

I listen to the Holy Spirit, Who is the infallible teacher sent to lead us into all truth.
in Matthew 6: 13, we read "And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

In Romans 2; 4, we read, "Or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance."

in 2nd. Peter 2: 9, we read, "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."

in James 1; 13 - 14, we read, 'Let no one say when he is tempted,"I am being tempted by God" for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself does not tempt anyone. but each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lusts."

If you are able to listen to the Holy Spirit, you would hear that Mathew 6: 13, is a lie. And if you cannot see that it is because you worship the book and not God.
Remember the book is a tool and not an object of worship, obviously lies are design to hinder the teaching of the Holy Spirit, remember also that tares were disseminated among the good seed. The catholic church kisses the book I do not know what that means.

 

[free spirit]

The funny thing is that both Koine Greek and modern English are painfully imprecise.

There will always be more than one way to read a passage in either language, often with more than one choice that has significant theological (or, most regretable, ethical) differences in interpretation.

One should therefore chose a HUMANE interpretative method that seeks to read the text that builds faith, hope, and love in the human community without causing harm or intellectual dishonesty. Several Christian traditions either ignore or destroy human identity and intellectual activity.

I use the scriptures as a guide only, because Jesus said that God would send to us the Holy Spirit to teach us, he did not say that he would have a book written for us.
Also every one say that Jesus is alive, but at the same time they search history to find proof of his existence, they believe that it is possible to find the living among the dead.

 

[free spirit]

Okay I will try to look at this as if the Lucifer thing wasn’t in there.

Is there a scripture that really says Adam coveted this knowledge. I don’t think there is. Eve did no doubt. Adam said He ate because Eve gave it to him, that’s all. The rest is speculation

.
If you accept a lie as truth you will became guilty of the lie.
God judged Adam as guilty. and he is just.

I wonder if we look at a spiritual connection in saying Eve represents the church and Adam represents Christ as Paul was made the analogy of this already and think on it that way

.
what do you mean?

Remember Eve already displayed they had this before Adam even ate the fruit. God made man with this spiritual weakness.

If they had the full knowledge there would not be a need of the tree.

That is why we are not CREATED in Gods image yet, it is that He IS CREATING man in His image. Its a process and is not completed yet. There is a big difference there.

The image is not the real thing, I agree with you there; Because I know that through Jesus we are been transformed from an image of God to the real thing. For we will inherit God through Jesus.

Yes “thou shall not covet” does cover almost all of the 10 commandments in just that one. I think about 7 of them.

With the rest of what you put I can agree with.

It is good to agree on something

 

[sojourner]

I listen to the Holy Spirit, Who is the infallible teacher sent to lead us into all truth.
in Matthew 6: 13, we read "And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

But we are still fallible listeners. As an example, from the movie The Patriot:

Gabriel: "I'd like your permission to call on Anne."
Mr. Howard (who's hard of hearing): "Of course you call yourself a man!"

What the Holy Spirit says might not be what you hear.

In Romans 2; 4, we read, "Or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance."

in 2nd. Peter 2: 9, we read, "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."

in James 1; 13 - 14, we read, 'Let no one say when he is tempted,"I am being tempted by God" for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself does not tempt anyone. but each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lusts."

If you are able to listen to the Holy Spirit, you would hear that Mathew 6: 13, is a lie.

He writes, completely ignoring the post to which he is responding...

And if you cannot see that it is because you worship the book and not God.

I don't worship the book. There must be another reason. 'F I were you, Id begin by looking at those three fingers pointing back at you, when you're pointing one at me.

The catholic church kisses the book I do not know what that means.

If you don't know what it means, how are you so sure you want to knock it? The kiss is a sign of reverence, not of worship. It's the same reason they "greet each other in the Name of the Lord." It's a sign that Christ is present.

 

[free spirit]

But we are still fallible listeners. As an example, from the movie The Patriot:

Gabriel: "I'd like your permission to call on Anne."
Mr. Howard (who's hard of hearing): "Of course you call yourself a man!"

What the Holy Spirit says might not be what you hear.

You should have quoted ACTS 28: 26, for we read, "Go to this people and say, you will keep on hearing, but will not understand; and you will keep on seeing but will not perceive." "The Patriot" is not important in God's life.
The Holy Spirit however is a patient teacher, he will not move forward in his teaching until what he has though you has been understood, and lived in real life, he takes you from faith to faith, until faith is perfected, i have a Little way to go yet.

He writes, completely ignoring the post to which he is responding...

I don't worship the book. There must be another reason. 'F I were you, Id begin by looking at those three fingers pointing back at you, when you're pointing one at me.

what I have written about Matthew 6: 13, is simple, is clear, it reflects God's true nature. but it is not acceptable because the revelation came from outside the official church, for how could they admit such blindness for so long, Because every time they repeat the Lord prayer they are inadvertently also equating him with Satan. And that is a big sin; akin to blasphemy. So preying to God without understanding what one is saying is been in the darkness of ignorance, which is Satan territory.
I have herd of all possible translations from pastors they twist and turn refusing to admit the obvious, they cannot stand the light of knowledge, so they ask me not to share my understanding with others or leave; and so were those that persecuted the early Christians, because they though that the writings of Moses were more important then the light of the truth. They know that God does not lead us into temptation, at the same time they like to leave the lie were it is; so in my opinion they love the writings more than God.
Just consider this, if the Pope would say what I said the world would revere him as a man in tune with God, but he will not do that, for it will be an admission that the church has been doped for so long, he has to uphold the false integrity of so many Popes.

If you don't know what it means, how are you so sure you want to knock it? The kiss is a sign of reverence, not of worship. It's the same reason they "greet each other in the Name of the Lord." It's a sign that Christ is present.

Well I had a suspicion similar to that but thanks for telling me.

 

[sojourner]

You should have quoted ACTS 28: 26, for we read, "Go to this people and say, you will keep on hearing, but will not understand; and you will keep on seeing but will not perceive." "The Patriot" is not important in real life.

Acts doesn't reflect my point at all. The vignette from the movie does. Art imitates life. Sometimes very poignantly. Your post here illustrates my point beautifully. Thank you.

what I have written about Matthew 6: 13, is simple, is clear,

and simply mistaken.

it reflects God's true nature.

So does Matt. 6:13.

but it is not acceptable because the revelation came from outside the official church,

It's not a revelation. It's a misinterpretation. Let the Church interpret her own scriptures! She doesn't need your help in this arena. Although you may benefit from hers.

So preying to God without understanding what one is saying

We do understand what we're saying. It's you who misunderstand what we're saying.

I have herd of all possible translations, they twist and turn refusing to admit the obvious,

YOu're projecting.

Well I had a suspicion similar to that but thanks for telling me.

For us, these sorts of sacramentals -- reverential in nature -- are very important, for int hem, we act out, in our physical bodies, our faith.

 

[free spirit]

Acts doesn't reflect my point at all. The vignette from the movie does. Art imitates life. Sometimes very poignantly. Your post here illustrates my point beautifully. Thank you.

and simply mistaken.

So does Matt. 6:13.

It's not a revelation. It's a misinterpretation. Let the Church interpret her own scriptures! She doesn't need your help in this arena. Although you may benefit from hers.

We do understand what we're saying. It's you who misunderstand what we're saying.

YOu're projecting.

For us, these sorts of sacramentals -- reverential in nature -- are very important, for int hem, we act out, in our physical bodies, our faith.

Your opinions are so engrossed in the infallibility of religion, so that you cannot see any alternative.
i edit a lot because my computer often looses what i have written, sorry about that.

 

[sojourner]

Your opinions are so engrossed in the infallibility of religion, so that you cannot see any alternative.
i edit a lot because my computer often looses what i have written, sorry about that.

No, I don't fall into the misconception that religion is infallible. Wherever human beings are involved, fallibility is inevitable. However, the Church has had at her disposal the best scholarship with regard to the Bible. That verse is a little problematic, but not overly so. In the the end, the sense of the community of faith is all we have ever had. With the help of the Holy Spirit, we do the best we can. That's all we can ask.

 

[free spirit]

The funny thing is that both Koine Greek and modern English are painfully imprecise.

There will always be more than one way to read a passage in either language, often with more than one choice that has significant theological (or, most regretable, ethical) differences in interpretation.

One should therefore chose a HUMANE interpretative method that seeks to read the text that builds faith, hope, and love in the human community without causing harm or intellectual dishonesty. Several Christian traditions either ignore or destroy human identity and intellectual activity.

If my understanding of the scriptures stood on my intellect alone I would not hold it up as a revelation; but as it is in Matthew 6: 13, there are a number of scriptures which makes the lie became obvious, also we know that temptation is by our fleshly lusts or Satan's works. So why they have difficulty in correcting the error.

 

[free spirit]

The word in question can be interpreted as "temptation." It can also be interpreted as "time of trial." My Greek Bible translates that word as "pressure."
The time of trial is part of the process to consolidate repentance, and therefore we have to go through trials, but the Lord will not allow us to be tested beyond our capabilities.

In any case, the word (and the phrase) probably should be taken as a request for God to remove the evil impulse which causes us to sin, according to the Interpreter's Bible.

That is impossible because only through the fulness of repentance we can became dead to sin, or evil impulses.

 

[sojourner]

That is impossible because only through the fulness of repentance we can became dead to sin, or evil impulses.

You want to talk about lies? Here's one you've been weaned on.

Let me guess... you have a "salvation plan" or "formula" that reads something like this:

In order to be saved, we must repent, confess Jesus as Lord, be baptized. But that takes the onus of salvation off of God and puts it on us.

God always acts first. We always respond. Therefore, grace is effected by God before we engage in any response. We became dead to sin the moment the Jesus Event occurred.

 

[AK4]

.

free spirit

If you accept a lie as truth you will became guilty of the lie.
God judged Adam as guilty. and he is just.

Definitely.

Tell me, Did God really judge Adam? Im just curious if there is an actual verse where it says God judge Adam guilty or even just judged him.

.
what do you mean?

In Pauls analogy He said Adam represented Christ and Eve the church. Now ask yourself, Did Christ HAVE TO DIE for His church? No He just did. Adam (who was not deceived remember) was willing to die with Eve. He knew what would happen to Eve after she took of the fruit before giving him some. Adam was willing to die with Eve because how much he loved her. The same for Christ. Christ was willing to die for everyone.
Adam (who was not deceived) could have said to Eve “you made your bed, now lie in it”, but He didn’t. He was willing to go (die) with the woman he loved so dearly.

If they had the full knowledge there would not be a need of the tree.

So what do you think the tree represents symbolically/spiritually?

The image is not the real thing, I agree with you there; Because I know that true Jesus we are been transformed from an image of God to the real thing. For we will inherit God through Jesus.

I agree.

 

[AK4]

sojourner

...As you see it. I see that truth differently.

There is only one Truth…And if you believe the trinity as truth well…..

That passage doesn't give any of us license to create division, buy into it, or maintain it.

Or to try to create a unity. Gods true church already have an “espree de corp” (I know spelled it wrong). There is the called (kletos "called, invited," is used,) and the called out of the called/the true church (ekklesia from ek, "out of," and klesis, "a calling" (kaleo, "to call")). Ask yourself who made the division or how about a better word DISTINCTION between the many called and the few chosen. All Christians are called (kletos), but only a few are chosen (from the called (ekklesia). Can’t you see the difference in those words that God inspired to be written? Why cant you just believe the Scriptures?

No, they don't.
That's not the lesson of the parable, no.

Just a few examples and keep in mind that its ONLY Christians who believe in Christ
1. Many called and few are chosen
2. Pharisee and tax collector
3. The Wise Virgins and the Foolish Virgins. Same thing.
4. The Lost Sheep and the 99
5. The Old Cloth on the New Cloth
6. The Wheat and the Tares
7. The Carnal Mind and the Mind of Christ
8. Judge Now, Judge Later
9. Physical Israel, Spiritual Israel
10. The First Adam, The Second Adam
11. Heart of Stone, Heart of Flesh
12. First the Shadow, Then the Reality
13. The True Gospel, Another Gospel
14. Image of the Earthly, Image of the Heavenly
15. The Tree of Good and Evil, Two: the Pharisee, the tax collector… You get it? The whole Bible!
16. Cain and Abel The Pharisee and the tax collector!
17. Some was sown in the good soil, and some was sown in the stony places
18. Seed of the Woman, Seed of Satan
19. Joseph and Joseph’s brothers
20. Sarah and Hagar
21. The Shadow and The Reality
22. The Law of Sin and Death, and the Law of the Spirit of Christ
23. The Rich Man and Poor Lazarus
24. The Faithful Servant, The Evil Servant
25. The Elder Son, The Prodigal Son
26. The Old Wine Skins, The New Wine Skins
27. The House on the Sand, The House on the Rock. It’s all the same thing.
28. Eonian Chastisement, Eonian Life
29. First the Physical, Then the Spiritual
30. The Old Covenant, The New Covenant
31. The Carnal Law of Moses, The Spiritual Law of God
32. Physical Blessings, Spiritual Blessings
33. Temporary Blessings, Eternal Blessings
34. First Resurrection, Second Resurrection
35. The Image of Man, The Image of God

You forgot to add the word "perceived" before "doctrines" and "vain worship," or the phrase "as I perceive them" after both.
It is your perception of the "deceit" that causes the division.
The church, along with its doctrines and worship, was here long, long before you were. Therefore, if it weren't for you, the Church would still continue along it's Spirit-guided path undismissed by you.

Is it my perception only? Am I the only one who has ever seen it? Am I the first? No. Have I and others not lived and believed these same doctrines before?

But you are trying to prove that the Church's doctrine and worship are wrong. The result is the same -- division.

If the evidence shows that a doctrine or teaching is contradictory to other scripture then it is wrong. Division between right and wrong

Only if it's done correctly.

Glory to God that He has shown me how to understand the Scriptures

We've all done that a long, long time ago, and found nothing wanting...

What can I say “and they loved the darkness…”

I disagree! The Church has certainly helped me to gain a greater understanding of God, myself and others. The Church doesn't take God's Spirit -- it gives the Spirit!

I was not saying the church took His spirit, I was saying to understand scripture, it takes His spirit

For starters, elohim isn't a name. It is a Hebrew term with a plural ending. the el part means "God" (loosely translated). The im makes it plural.

Yes I know this already.

 

[AK4]

Sorry. I left that line out. But there is scriptural basis for it.

Gee I wonder why

It makes no difference whether the wording is "hell" or "dead." They both refer to those bereft of life.
My point still stands. The Creed is scriptural in its entirety. There is nothing heretical or false about it. It is ancient. The Churchs that espouse the creed espouse the basic beliefs of the Christian Church

Really? Now the “church” teaches of immortal soul in hell, purgatory or heaven. To say he descended to hell is saying that Christ didn’t really die but only His body, which would make it a cadaver, to say Christ descended to a place where theyre immortal souls is not scriptural. So although I could show more, the thing is if this creed has even one false line or phrase in it then it should not be followed because it introduces lies and heresies and teach half truths. Now think about it, how much would this creed deceive if everything was false in it? No Satan is more clever than that, he mixes lies within truths.

If bowing to doctrine is whorish, then bowing to scripture is also whorish.

That’s just a stupid statement

Not necessarily. On either count.

So you believe In a god with contradictions huh? Hmmm And your part of the true church of God? Ha, not likely

Nobody's "changing God." But our perceptions of God do change.

Oh you mean like at easter he changes into a bunny and then at Christmas hes a fat man in red costume. And that’s just for starters!!!

 

[AK4]

God always acts first. We always respond. Therefore, grace is effected by God before we engage in any response.

WHOOOAAAA now there nelly. Did you finally have an epiphany? Did something i said to you earlier in this thread finally sink in? Wasnt it you who fought me tooth and nail on the free will/coming to Christ on your own doctrine where you said God doesnt "forced", "inspired","etc, etc," us to love Him because that wouldnt be love at all?

Hmmm. Of course your pride will not let you admit to it here, but oh well. the only other option is if you are faking it now

 

[free spirit]

You want to talk about lies? Here's one you've been weaned on.
Let me guess... you have a "salvation plan" or "formula" that reads something like this:
In order to be saved, we must repent, confess Jesus as Lord, be baptized. But that takes the onus of salvation off of God and puts it on us.

You guessed wrong.

God always acts first. We always respond. Therefore, grace is effected by God before we engage in any response. We became dead to sin the moment the Jesus Event occurred.

Yes God always acts first; "for while we were sinners Christ died for us"
We read in 1st. Peter 4: 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
1st. Thessalonians 5: 22 abstain from every form of evil. 23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he who calls you, and he also will bring it to pass.

I believe that Jesus came to dwell and sanctify our conscience, but to sanctify of our soul and body he requires our cooperation. "Abstain from every form of evil," which equal repentance of our soul; and to keep our body holy for we read in 1st, Corinthians 6: "or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a harlot is one body with her? For he says. The two will become one flesh. But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore glorify God in your body."

 

[Carico]

hi this is abilash. i am from india. i am a hindu i ahev recently read so called bible. to be frank i dont find any thing good in this..... all things i dont belive why do you guys say this is great.... i dont find any thing good in the so called holy book..*edit*

That's because it convicts everyone of sin.

 

[free spirit]

Tell me, Did God really judge Adam? Im just curious if there is an actual verse where it says God judge Adam guilty or even just judged him.

In Genesis 3: 17 we read, "Then to Adam he said. "because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you saying, you shall not eat from it. Cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life."
It sound like a judgment and sentence to me all wrapped into one.

In Pauls analogy He said Adam represented Christ and Eve the church. Now ask yourself, Did Christ HAVE TO DIE for His church? No He just did. Adam (who was not deceived remember) was willing to die with Eve. He knew what would happen to Eve after she took of the fruit before giving him some. Adam was willing to die with Eve because how much he loved her. The same for Christ. Christ was willing to die for everyone.

These are speculations, "Adam chose to die with Eve because he loved her." Remember they did not know good or evil, so they did not know love or hate.
those things came after the eating of the fruit.

Adam (who was not deceived) could have said to Eve “you made your bed, now lie in it”, but He didn’t. He was willing to go (die) with the woman he loved so dearly.

again speculation, Adam listened to the voice of his wife instead of the voice of his conscience.

So what do you think the tree represents symbolically/spiritually?

I do not know; but God's plan is to beget himself a family, so a family member has to grow up to be equal to the father. So he did things which are a mystery to us, but in the end we will know as we have been known.

 

[sojourner]

There is only one Truth…And if you believe the trinity as truth well…..

Truth is perceived, understood and expressed differently by different people.

Why cant you just believe the Scriptures?

I do believe the scriptures. I believe what I think they mean, just like you do. The only difference between you and me is an openness to the exegetical approach that gains us greater insight.

Just a few examples and keep in mind that its ONLY Christians who believe in Christ

Rather, those who believe in Christ are called "Christians."

Is it my perception only? Am I the only one who has ever seen it? Am I the first? No. Have I and others not lived and believed these same doctrines before?

We are told that the poor will always be with us...

If the evidence shows that a doctrine or teaching is contradictory to other scripture then it is wrong. Division between right and wrong

The only evidence you've shown is made up in your own head, out of whole cloth.

Glory to God that He has shown me how to understand the Scriptures

What can I say “and they loved the darkness…”

I was not saying the church took His spirit, I was saying to understand scripture, it takes His spirit

We don't take anything from God. We simply receive what God gives us.

Gee I wonder why

"Because it's a basic tenet of our belief" is a real good place to start for explaining why there's a Biblical tenet for this creedal statement.

Really? Now the “church” teaches of immortal soul in hell, purgatory or heaven. To say he descended to hell is saying that Christ didn’t really die but only His body, which would make it a cadaver, to say Christ descended to a place where theyre immortal souls is not scriptural. So although I could show more, the thing is if this creed has even one false line or phrase in it then it should not be followed because it introduces lies and heresies and teach half truths. Now think about it, how much would this creed deceive if everything was false in it? No Satan is more clever than that, he mixes lies within truths.

All I can say is that you have indicated that we can't argue with what is in the Bible. It's in the Bible. Therefore, you can't argue with it.

That’s just a stupid statement

You would know -- you've presented enough of them, yourself, here.

So you believe In a god with contradictions huh?

No, but I embrace the Bible which contains contradictory accounts and statements.

Hmmm And your part of the true church of God? Ha, not likely

Again, you're not in a position to make that judgment.

Oh you mean like at easter he changes into a bunny and then at Christmas hes a fat man in red costume. And that’s just for starters!!!

You're misdirecting here.
Are you saying that we should still see God as a warrior-king, who lives on a mountain and hurls fire and smoke at our enemies? That believers have altered their perspective is evident in scripture itself, moving from that kind of God to a God Incarnate in a helpless and disenfranchised baby.

WHOOOAAAA now there nelly. Did you finally have an epiphany? Did something i said to you earlier in this thread finally sink in? Wasnt it you who fought me tooth and nail on the free will/coming to Christ on your own doctrine where you said God doesnt "forced", "inspired","etc, etc," us to love Him because that wouldnt be love at all?

Reconciliation to God has nothing to do with the free will issue. We can choose to embrace that state of affairs, or not.

 

[sojourner]

That's because it convicts everyone of sin.

It sets them free from their bondage.