Do you understand the New Testament

[free spirit]

TO SOJOURNER AND AK4

We are our faith...

Time and again.

Not cogent to this particular topic of worship.

Once again, not cogent here.

Who says we don't worship in spirit? Ritual is part of worship just as framework is part of a building.

No, but I think that the taking of Christ's Body and Blood is the central act of our worship of God, through Christ.

More than you could possibly fathom.

Nope. At least once a week.

It's rather the assumptions you make in your ignorance of me that's appalling.

As I said: You're angry.

You're on the attack. As they say, the best defense is a strong offense...

I'm still waiting on a proper interpretation of scripture from you in your rebuttals. Gee, I wonder why?

Not like you, I won't!

M'Kay. In what way is it overblown to say that those who know Greek make it possible for those who don't to read their New Testaments in English?

Well, gee! There's a scriptural quotation for ya, and you don't like it!
I've given you lots of pearls and you haven't recognized the value. What's overblown about that?

You asked for the resume, and I furnished the information. Facts, not overblown fiction.

I don't intend to, because it wouldn't do any good in a mudslinging match.

A real good example of the pot calling the kettle "black."

Been there, done that, baptized the T-shirt.

No, one of my pearls is the real Trinity. I have no idea what a "fabled" trinity might be...

A "fabled trinity" might, indeed, be a rotten egg. However, the Trinity is a pearl, to be sure.

Actually, I do know what the passage means, and it don't mean what you think it does. Nor does the John passage here. You'll have to provide an example of one deed of mine that could be rightly termed "evil."
::taps foot -- looks at watch -- listens to "Jeopardy" theme for a while::
I thought not...

You two are supposedly grown Christians, if this is the attitude and the language of two brothers in Christ, then I would hate to witness the encounter of two enemies. Remember knowledge makes arrogant but love edify.
AK4 have you read my post 472.

 

[Ghostaka]

Lol, I think I have to intervene and say PEACE BE UPON YOU PEOPLE.

Stop bickering it is the work of ...... the devil.

Peace be upon you (once again).

 

[sojourner]

God, I hope we're done "understanding" the New Testament!"

 

[free spirit]

God, I hope we're done "understanding" the New Testament!"

Understanding the New Testament between Christians should be an exchange of ideas, within the rules of brotherly love. Like, I think that my knowledge of God is perfect, but that does not give me the right to offend you, we will have to agree to disagree, and postpone the discussion for same later date.
For if my word is truth and has been planted in a good heart, in time it will bring fourth fruit. In other words the word of truth will do its work if there is work to be done.

 

[AK4]

TO SOJOURNER AND AK4



You two are supposedly grown Christians, if this is the attitude and the language of two brothers in Christ, then I would hate to witness the encounter of two enemies. Remember knowledge makes arrogant but love edify.
AK4 have you read my post 472.

There is a saying out there---

"hell has no fury like a christian shown the truth"

We are to rebuke in love right? Have you noticed how Jesus talked to the scholars and teachers during His ministry? He upbraided them strongly because of their hypocrisy and lies and for the way the would "make one proselyte, twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Notice the difference in the way Jesus spoke to those who claim to know the scriptures and to "sinners", and gentiles. Jesus exposed them hypocrits and use alot different adjectives to describe them. Jesus was not just some softy, softy who spoke only with "Michael Jackson" voice.

Notice what Peter says Paul says "For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17). These christian churches claim to be the house of God so judgment on their doctrines of devils and the teachers and scholars and theologians need to done. Notice:

"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the LATTER TIMES some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking LIES IN HYPOCRISY; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1).

And

"This, know also, that IN THE LAST DAYS, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away… EVER learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:1-7).

Some Christians naively believe Paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world, of mankind in general. Oh no they aren't: It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme God," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such." Oh no. It is the HOUSE OF GOD that has done these things and continues to do them.

And i can go on and on with scripture. Now how that pertains to someone like sojourner is that he says he has a congo and he expressed some of his beliefs here, so obviously he is teaching his congo the same. He exposed himself and what he teaches like the trinity and stuff from the didache. And thats the thing with most of christendom... they teach doctrines that seems like truth on the surface but if you actually scrutinize them you will see how the contradict and lie. You say its not a big deal but think about it, if God is not a trinity and a pastor is teaching doctrine to his congo of a trinity and he is doing this in all love does that still make it right in Gods' eyes?

Yes i have read it and i thought i commented on it. I will try to find it again

 

[sojourner]

We are to rebuke in love right? Have you noticed how Jesus talked to the scholars and teachers during His ministry? He upbraided them strongly because of their hypocrisy and lies and for the way the would "make one proselyte, twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Notice the difference in the way Jesus spoke to those who claim to know the scriptures and to "sinners", and gentiles. Jesus exposed them hypocrits and use alot different adjectives to describe them. Jesus was not just some softy, softy who spoke only with "Michael Jackson" voice.

Once again, may I point out that you are not Jesus! The situation here is nothing like the situations posited by the gospels. Neither are you a gospel writer. Nor should your job be to rebuke anyone -- especially someone whom you don't know, with whom you have no real relationship, and with whose heart you are not familiar. Jesus is said to have rebuked the hypocrites, because they were hypocrites. How are you certain that I pretend to be what I am not?

Notice what Peter says Paul says "For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17). These christian churches claim to be the house of God so judgment on their doctrines of devils and the teachers and scholars and theologians need to done.

Neither are you an apostle. It's not up to you to sit in judgment on any church. Doing so would make you a hypocrite.

And i can go on and on with scripture. Now how that pertains to someone like sojourner is that he says he has a congo and he expressed some of his beliefs here, so obviously he is teaching his congo the same. He exposed himself and what he teaches like the trinity and stuff from the didache. And thats the thing with most of christendom... they teach doctrines that seems like truth on the surface but if you actually scrutinize them you will see how the contradict and lie. You say its not a big deal but think about it, if God is not a trinity and a pastor is teaching doctrine to his congo of a trinity and he is doing this in all love does that still make it right in Gods' eyes?

God's eyes? What do you know about God's POV, that is any more anointed, revealed, special, or authoritative than what the rest of us know? What you're doing here is seeing things through your own eyes and telling us that they are God's eyes.

Trinitarians have "continued in the Apostles' teaching, in the breaking of bread and the prayers." We all do the best we can with our understanding. If you have a different understanding, bully for you! But don't try to foist your uninformed understanding upon the rest of us who have read, marked, learnt, studied, and taken to heart both the scriptures and the Apostoloic tradition.

Even if it is done "in love."

 

[AK4]

Quote: sojourner
We are our faith...

Yes, now….

Matt 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
If your faith is based in lies or on a lie or false doctrine, then what does that faith say of you?

Time and again.

Not cogent to this particular topic of worship.

Once again, not cogent here.

Oh I see. The physical rituals the ancient Israelites did to try to save themselves is different from the physical rituals the churches does to try to save themselves. Bologna! Read again how Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites for doing all their rituals and alms and fasting for men to see. Was they worshipping in spirit? Just like them, you have your reward.

Who says we don't worship in spirit? Ritual is part of worship just as framework is part of a building.

Really? And you think doing these rituals are worshipping in spirit? *sigh* “Ye are yet carnal” All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances. We are now under the "Law of the Spirit of Life." "We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."

"For the LOVE of Christ constrains us because we thus judge, that if One died for all, then were ALL DEAD: And that He died for all, that they which live should NOT henceforth live unto themselves, but unto HIM which died for them, and rose again. Where henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet NOW HENCEFORTH KNOW WE HIM NO MORE. THEREFORE if any man be IN CHRIST, he is A NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; BEHOLD, all things are become new"!!! (II Cor. 5:14-17).

Nothing physical saves spiritually!

No, but I think that the taking of Christ's Body and Blood is the central act of our worship of God, through Christ.

Please enlighten me then on how one takes of Christs body and blood by doing the physical ritual of the Passover and how this is worshipping Him in spirit and truth and how this shall save them

More than you could possibly fathom.

Nope. At least once a week.

Wow, at least once a week huh? So you only partake of His body and blood which is what saves us that many times. What do you do with the rest of your time? Not partake of His body and blood? Shouldn’t you do this daily spiritually, every minute and second of your life? See if you truly knew what the ritual of the Passover meant and what the symbols Christ used meant you would know how to do this spiritually. Just like baptism--- if you think doing the ritual of the baptism is the spiritual meaning behind it and that’s all it entails well what can I say.

As I said: You're angry.

Yes if thatll make you feel better, as should all who are lovers of the Truth and hate lies

Quote:
I'm still waiting on a proper interpretation of scripture from you in your rebuttals. Gee, I wonder why?

Silly. Everything I say I back up with scripture yet you haven’t but oops maybe once and yet anyone can quote that one. Pearls like the trinity huh? ROFLMAO

You asked for the resume, and I furnished the information. Facts, not overblown fiction.

I didn’t ask for anything nor would I care what “achievements” you may have earned. I know that God is not looking for many who have “many accolades”. For those who are like that are likely to boast about it. And you should know what it says about boasting and humility.

Quote:
I don't intend to, because it wouldn't do any good in a mudslinging match.

No mud slung from here. Just “exposing those who contradict”

Quote:
A real good example of the pot calling the kettle "black."

Yet I have and will continue to even if you don’t have spiritual discernment.

Quote:
No, one of my pearls is the real Trinity. I have no idea what a "fabled" trinity might be...

Yet do you know the origins of the doctrine of the trinity and how many scriptures the doctrine of the trinity contradict! Its no pearl if it contradicts scripture. Lets check Hastings Dictionary of the Bible on this real quick---

Page 1015: TRINITY--The Christian doctrine of God as existing in three Persons and one Substance IS NOT DEMONSTRABLE BY LOGIC or SCRIPTURAL PROOF..." (Emphasis mine).

Wow what an admission

Quote:
A "fabled trinity" might, indeed, be a rotten egg. However, the Trinity is a pearl, to be sure.

*sigh* some people would rather hold on to the “idols of the heart” than “come to the knowledge of the truth”

Quote:
Actually, I do know what the passage means, and it don't mean what you think it does. Nor does the John passage here. You'll have to provide an example of one deed of mine that could be rightly termed "evil."
::taps foot -- looks at watch -- listens to "Jeopardy" theme for a while::
I thought not...

Okay, you teaching your congo the doctrine of the trinity. There’s one. You care to share some more of your Christendom beliefs and I bet there is more. And yes that is a evil deed

 

[AK4]

Freespirit

Moving a step further towards the understanding of ourselves we must realise that the source of coordinate actions of the body and precise utterances, reside in the spirit, there is no other plausible location. Have you ever searched your inner self to find the source of your words? For if you could find it you would be staring in the face of god, with a small “g” because it would be your own face you would be looking at.

So how come you didnt understand me when i was showing you about what the doctrine of freewill does to man...


2Th 2:4 -Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is (a) God.

1Co 3:16 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Satan has deceived everyone to think that this is only talking of one person. No no no. Virtually all of mankind has fallen for this deception of freewill and exalt himself above all that is called God. Look for example of the doctrine/teaching of one coming to Christ. "choose Christ" "YOU accept Him as your personal Saviour" "if one doesnt come to God then its THEIR OWN fault and they will be tortureD forever in hell" "one has to choose to do good all on their own" "you are the ruler of your own destiny" etc etc etc. Yet the scriptures teach all the opposite and yet All those quotes above throw God out of the picture or say He basically had nothing to do with it and its all on the individual.

Can you see in those quotes how one can “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as a God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is (a) God” and “changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,” They worship themselves and “their” accomplishments they think they did all on their own, and don’t give God the glory because it was really Him working through you.

I cant fully agree with your post because it has some doctrines/teachings that are contrary to the Word. On the surface it looks and reads nice, but when I read it again I caught what I posted here.

 

[sojourner]

If your faith is based in lies or on a lie or false doctrine, then what does that faith say of you?

It's a moot question, because my faith isn't "based in lies or on a lie, or on false doctrine." My faith is based in God's grace through Christ.

Oh I see. The physical rituals the ancient Israelites did to try to save themselves is different from the physical rituals the churches does to try to save themselves. Bologna! Read again how Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites for doing all their rituals and alms and fasting for men to see. Was they worshipping in spirit? Just like them, you have your reward.

No, you don't see.
Yes, the rituals themselves are different, because they begin upon a different premise and lead us toward a different end, for on thing. For another, we don't engage in ritual "in order to be seen." We engage in them to help us see. Therefore, we are not being hypocritical when we practice ritual worship. Ritual isn't inherently hypocritical.

Really? And you think doing these rituals are worshipping in spirit? *sigh* “Ye are yet carnal” All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances.

No. rote "doing" is not "worshiping in spirit."
Yes. We are physical beings, who experience physical things. We need to bring all of us -- emotions, intellect, and our physical selves into a worship experience.
Physical rituals are physical acts, but not physical ordinances.

Nothing physical saves spiritually!

YOu're right. God saves -- not our acts. But we believe that God acts through our acts.

Worship is, by definition, ritual in nature. The word itself comes from two Anglo-Saxon roots. The "ship" part means "shape." The "wor" part comes from the root-word werden, meaning, "to become." So, worship is a shape of events in which God creates with us, in order that we might "become something" other than what we are right now.

That being said, it's not the specific rituals themselves, nor the specific order of events that are efficacious. It is the attitude with which we engage in whatever it is we do that allows God to be Creator with us in the context of the things we act out before God.

Please enlighten me then on how one takes of Christs body and blood by doing the physical ritual of the Passover and how this is worshipping Him in spirit and truth and how this shall save them

We don't "do the physical ritual of the Passover." We participate in the Eucharist. It is worship in spirit and truth, because Christ commanded us to do it, and when we do it, to engage in anamnesis -- that is, to bring Christ's life, passion, death, and resurrection into our present. By doing this, it is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace that we are made one Body with Christ -- he dwells in us, and we in him. I'd say that's pretty spiritual and truthful.

Wow, at least once a week huh? So you only partake of His body and blood which is what saves us that many times. What do you do with the rest of your time? Not partake of His body and blood? Shouldn’t you do this daily spiritually, every minute and second of your life? See if you truly knew what the ritual of the Passover meant and what the symbols Christ used meant you would know how to do this spiritually. Just like baptism--- if you think doing the ritual of the baptism is the spiritual meaning behind it and that’s all it entails well what can I say.

You don't understand me at all. You think you do, and it has led you to make some wild accusations.

Eucharist is celebrated on the first day of the week, because it commemorates the Lord's Day -- the day when he was resurrected. But we understand that the act of Eucharist only symbolically takes place then. We are a Eucharistic assembly, so we carry the Eucharist with us all week. When we celebrate the meal in our own congo, it is symbolic of a much greater single meal that is shared by all Christians. "It is very meet, right, and out bounded duty that we should, at all times and in all places, give thanks to thee, Holy Father, Almighty and Everlasting God..." so begins the Great Thanksgiving Prayer we offer before the meal. By praying this, we are reminded that, wherever we go, whenever we find ourselves, we are in the midst of Eucharist.

Baptism works much the same way. The ritual washing is an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. It shows us that God is making us clean.

Everything I say I back up with scripture yet you haven’t but oops maybe once and yet anyone can quote that one.

Everything you say, you back up with your own interpretation of what that quoted text is saying. I don't happen to buy it.

No mud slung from here. Just “exposing those who contradict”

"Defaming those whom you think contradict," actually. And that is mudslinging.

Yet I have and will continue to even if you don’t have spiritual discernment.

Pssst! Hey, gang! He thinks I don't engage in spiritual discernment! Again, rebuking those whose hearts you don't know only makes you hypocritical.

Yet do you know the origins of the doctrine of the trinity and how many scriptures the doctrine of the trinity contradict! Its no pearl if it contradicts scripture.

NOn-contradiction of scripture is idolatry. there is much contradiction, both in scripture and within the realm of theology. To think otherwise is to make an idol of the texts.

Lets check Hastings Dictionary of the Bible on this real quick

I don't buy that definition.

*sigh* some people would rather hold on to the “idols of the heart” than “come to the knowledge of the truth”

Reference my entry above with regard to idolizing the texts.

Okay, you teaching your congo the doctrine of the trinity. There’s one. You care to share some more of your Christendom beliefs and I bet there is more. And yes that is a evil deed

Not according to the orthodox Faith, which is the Body of Christ...

 

[AK4]

sojourner

Once again, may I point out that you are not Jesus! The situation here is nothing like the situations posited by the gospels. Neither are you a gospel writer. Nor should your job be to rebuke anyone -- especially someone whom you don't know, with whom you have no real relationship, and with whose heart you are not familiar. Jesus is said to have rebuked the hypocrites, because they were hypocrites. How are you certain that I pretend to be what I am not?

And I’ll ask and show you again,

who are we to be like?

"…because AS He [Jesus] is, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17),

Who is our role model? Who is our example? Whose footsteps do we follow?

1Pe 2:21 - … leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Who’s mind are we to have?

"Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5)?
Who should be living in you and speaking for you?

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me

Mt 10:19 - But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,

Etc. etc. etc. Do you still not see who we are to be like, act like and have the mind of? It amazes me how naïve people of today are thinking that man has “evolved” and are smarter now than they were back then. Do you know all the symbols and signs and things of ancient past that are still very visable this day and age that people are worshipping and they don’t even realize it. Of course you don’t. Going well beyond the easter and Christmas symbols and the other stuff the ancients worshipped, try for example even the symbol on ambulances with the snake around the stick. Hmmmmm. Oh and theres thousands more.

Well of course you wouldn’t see the hypocrisy in such a teaching as the trinity so you think you shouldn’t be rebuked. But you should be rebuked and shown the truth so you can see where you are in error.

How are you certain that I pretend to be what I am not?

Going By your own words I am certain You pretend to be a minister of the Truth yet you teach the doctrines of devils like the trinity.

Neither are you an apostle. It's not up to you to sit in judgment on any church. Doing so would make you a hypocrite.

Exposing those who contradict is not a judgment on them but of their false teachings.

1Co 11:1 - Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. (Uh oh now we are to be like Paul also, who was an Apostle too.)

Ahhh yes, believers don’t judge among themselves. I speak as a fool.

1 Corinthians 6:1-8 1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?

God's eyes? What do you know about God's POV, that is any more anointed, revealed, special, or authoritative than what the rest of us know? What you're doing here is seeing things through your own eyes and telling us that they are God's eyes.

Am I doing this or am I putting your words and mine up against the Word of God and seeing if it contradicts just any one precept of it. Gods POV is in His Word, not mine. If what I say is contrary to any spiritual precept let me know. The same “judgment” I put on any is the same I expect on me. I keep showing you were your words are contradicting yet you haven’t shown me once. Do I show you with my own words or do I use multiple scriptures that you try to discredit and not believe because you call it proof-texting when I have shown you how God instructed the Apostles on how to understand the scriptures?

Trinitarians have "continued in the Apostles' teaching, in the breaking of bread and the prayers." We all do the best we can with our understanding. If you have a different understanding, bully for you! But don't try to foist your uninformed understanding upon the rest of us who have read, marked, learnt, studied, and taken to heart both the scriptures and the Apostoloic tradition.

Even if it is done "in love."

The Apostles didn’t teach the trinity that’s one thing you still haven’t realized yet. Its not scripture!!! You say im uninformed yet you don’t know how much study and reading and meditating and praying I have done for God to show me His Truths. You don’t have a clue how suffering I have gone through to learn the truths of God. I don’t foist nothing, either ya get it or don’t. Its all on God anyway.

Ahh the apostoloic tradition—will this include the apostles creed?

 

[sojourner]

And I’ll ask and show you again,

who are we to be like?

"…because AS He [Jesus] is, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17),

Who is our role model? Who is our example? Whose footsteps do we follow?

just because we follow Jesus does not give us the authority to upbraid those whom we think are "unworthy" in some way. Remember how the disciples rebuked the man "who was not one of them" for driving out spirits? and Jesus rebuked the disciples for having done that.

Rubuke is the Master's job -- no the students'.

Who’s mind are we to have?

"Let this MIND be IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5)?
Who should be living in you and speaking for you?

you're asking the wrong question. It's not whose mind, it's what kind of mind. What kind of mind are we to have? A servant's mind -- just like Jesus had, who being "in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited., but emptied himself, taking on the form of a slave..."

Do you know all the symbols and signs and things of ancient past that are still very visable this day and age that people are worshipping and they don’t even realize it. Of course you don’t.

You don't know me very well, at all, do you!

Do you still not see who we are to be like, act like and have the mind of? It amazes me how naïve people of today are thinking that man has “evolved” and are smarter now than they were back then.

We're supposed to be humble and empty ourselves, as Christ did. it has nothing to do with rebuking others.

Well of course you wouldn’t see the hypocrisy in such a teaching as the trinity so you think you shouldn’t be rebuked.

Actually Phil. 2 is a rather good example of a Biblical support for the Trinity. "Christ Jesus, who...was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God..."
No. No rebuke necessary here.

But you should be rebuked and shown the truth so you can see where you are in error.

I'll leave the rebuking up to the master, not to a fellow servant, who has no more authority than I. In fact, less.

Going By your own words I am certain You pretend to be a minister of the Truth yet you teach the doctrines of devils like the trinity.

You are certain in your own mind. Good for us that the Church has never recognized the credibility of individual interpretation. Most of the Body of Christ would side with me with regard to the Trinity. In any case, it really doesn't matter. The Trinity is but one way for us to try to wrap our minds around an infinite God.

1 Corinthians 6:1-81 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers?

Apparently you breezed right over this part:

appoint as judges

Judges, according to Paul, in the situation at Corinth, are to be appointed by the community.


Who appointed you?

Am I doing this or am I putting your words and mine up against the Word of God and seeing if it contradicts just any one precept of it.

You're putting my words up against what you think the text says. Then you say that your words are one-and-the-same as what you read into the text.

If what I say is contrary to any spiritual precept let me know.

I have pointed things out on several occasions. Without exceptioin, you come back with "That's not what the Word says!" You refuse to admit that your interpretations might possibly be in error, and completely dismiss the reasonable scholarship that shows such. How convenient for you! You don't really want to be shown where you're contrary, because you refuse to believe that that is even possible for you.

The same “judgment” I put on any is the same I expect on me.

No it isn't. Get real.

I keep showing you were your words are contradicting yet you haven’t shown me once.

I've provided several examples. You completely dismiss them.

Do I show you with my own words or do I use multiple scriptures that you try to discredit and not believe because you call it proof-texting when I have shown you how God instructed the Apostles on how to understand the scriptures?

You show me with the understanding that you foist upon the texts with little knowledge of what they mean.

The Apostles didn’t teach the trinity that’s one thing you still haven’t realized yet.

The Church continues in the Apostles' teaching...
Those who hold Apostolic authority for doctrinal teaching have advocated the Trinity.

Its not scripture!!!

It's not explicit -- but it is implicit.

You say im uninformed yet you don’t know how much study and reading and meditating and praying I have done for God to show me His Truths.

I don't believe God has shown you enough.

Its all on God anyway.

A certain man lost his job. He couldn't find another. He prayed for God to let him win the lottery.
Soon, he lost his house and his cars. He prayed even more fervently for God to let him win the lottery. His wife left him and took the kids. He prayed once more for God to let him win the lottery. When he had lost everything, he finally railed at God: "Why? Why didn't you let me win the lottery?"

A rumble of thunder rolled out of the sky, and a voice said, "You gotta meet me halfway! You gotta buy a ticket!"

Ahh the apostoloic tradition—will this include the apostles creed?

Of course. As well as the Nicene.

 

[free spirit]

To ak4

there is a saying out there---

"hell has no fury like a christian shown the truth"

he would be a religious person, but not a Christian

we are to rebuke in love right? Have you noticed how jesus talked to the scholars and teachers during his ministry? He upbraided them strongly because of their hypocrisy and lies and for the way the would "make one proselyte, twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." notice the difference in the way jesus spoke to those who claim to know the scriptures and to "sinners", and gentiles. Jesus exposed them hypocrits and use alot different adjectives to describe them. Jesus was not just some softy, softy who spoke only with "michael jackson" voice.

yes, but Jesus had the authority, his position is special, we cannot possibly act the way he did, or our fleshly arrogance will appear in our character. We are to speak the truth in love, and it is that truth that cut to the quick, and give rise to violent responses, but we do not purposely stir for that response.

notice what peter says paul says "for the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of god…" (i pet. 4:17). These christian churches claim to be the house of god so judgment on their doctrines of devils and the teachers and scholars and theologians need to done. Notice:

"now the spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (i tim. 4:1).

and

"this, know also, that in the last days, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of god; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: From such turn away… ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (ii tim. 3:1-7).

yes they are professional religious people, which are devoid of the spirit, they have given their heart to an organization and they defend its doctrines. "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" i understand the above scriptures as (never able to experience the holiness of god)

some christians naively believe paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world, of mankind in general. Oh no they aren't: It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme god," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such." oh no. It is the house of god that has done these things and continues to do them.

the letters to the seven churches of revelation are clear, also it is clear that the word of god is for a guide and correction only for the believers,
for those who do not believe could not care less what it says.

and i can go on and on with scripture. Now how that pertains to someone like sojourner is that he says he has a congo and he expressed some of his beliefs here, so obviously he is teaching his congo the same. He exposed himself and what he teaches like the trinity and stuff from the didache. And thats the thing with most of christendom... They teach doctrines that seems like truth on the surface but if you actually scrutinize them you will see how the contradict and lie. You say its not a big deal but think about it, if god is not a trinity and a pastor is teaching doctrine to his congo of a trinity and he is doing this in all love does that still make it right in gods' eyes?

i personally have not given much importance to the theory of the trinity, because it try to describe god as a form of existence, which i find unhelpful in my quest for holiness. But in Matthew 28: 19, we read, "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and the son, and the holy spirit."
and genesis 3: 22, we read, "then the lord god said, "behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; an now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." so we must conclude that some how he is more than one forming one god. The trinity is an invented word to explain that mystery; but also i see myself as a trinity, because i am in reality three different things such as; my conscience, my soul, and my body, which all together is me, and when you speak to me you affect each one of them in a different manner, like my conscience will judge your moral standing, my soul will decide if i can collaborate with you, my body language will tell me if we can be together in harmony. Also that is the way we make our decisions; have you ever made a decision in which no all of you were in agreement wasn't that a strange experience.
in conclusion to try to explain god as a trinity is a waste of time for it does not makes us any better or any worse if we believe it or not. Like has it made much difference to you; to know that your conscience is independent from your mind, and that your body is independent from your mind and conscience; they are all individuals necessary to make the one, YOU. I did speak about it in the article "effective worship"
yes i have read it and i thought i commented on it. I will try to find it again

 

[free spirit]

to ak4

so how come you didnt understand me when i was showing you about what the doctrine of freewill does to man...

because i do not believe that is referring to every individual but only to one. That one is the false christ, (or antichrist, the beast who's number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.) the false christ will be received as the messiah by the fleshly jews, because the fleshly jews are still waiting for the christ, and he will display himself in the rebuild temple as being god, "having great power" he will deceive many of the sympathizing christians, even the elect if it were possible. And by what i hear preached in the pentecostal churches, and by the televangelists, the deception of gullible christians and the world has already began. If the israelis are able to rebuild the temple then watch out for the false christ.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/onli...h+2:4&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1

2th 2:4 -who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sitteth in the temple of god, shewing himself that he is (a) god.

1co 3:16 - know ye not that ye are the temple of god, and that the spirit of god dwelleth in you?

if you have the real god, you would not do that.

satan has deceived everyone to think that this is only talking of one person. No no no. Virtually all of mankind has fallen for this deception of freewill and exalt himself above all that is called god. Look for example of the doctrine/teaching of one coming to christ. "choose christ" "you accept him as your personal saviour" "if one doesnt come to god then its their own fault and they will be tortured forever in hell" "one has to choose to do good all on their own" "you are the ruler of your own destiny" etc etc etc. Yet the scriptures teach all the opposite and yet all those quotes above throw god out of the picture or say he basically had nothing to do with it and its all on the individual.

can you see in those quotes how one can “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as a god sitteth in the temple of god, shewing himself that he is (a) god” and “changed the truth of god into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the creator,” they worship themselves and “their” accomplishments they think they did all on their own, and don’t give god the glory because it was really him working through you.

i do not know anyone to be that pretentious, even the televangelists do not do that, but they do make wild claims, but in the end they have no real power, because they do not have the love of God in them.
i cant fully agree with your post because it has some doctrines/teachings that are contrary to the word. On the surface it looks and reads nice, but when i read it again i caught what i posted here.

 

[sojourner]

he would be a religious person, but not a Christian

Who are you speaking about here?

yes they are professional religious people, which are devoid of the spirit, they have given their heart to an organization and they defend its doctrines. "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" i understand the above scriptures as (never able to experience the holiness of god)

How do you know whether someone is "devoid of the Spirit?" What gives you the authority to make such a judgment?

i personally have not given much importance to the theory of the trinity, because it try to describe god as a form of existence, which i find unhelpful in my quest for holiness. But in Matthew 28: 19, we read, "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, and the son, and the holy spirit."
and genesis 3: 22, we read, "then the lord god said, "behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; an now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever." so we must conclude that some how he is more than one forming one god. The trinity is an invented word to explain that mystery; but also i see myself as a trinity, because i am in reality three different things such as; my conscience, my soul, and my body, which all together is me, and when you speak to me you affect each one of them in a different manner, like my conscience will judge your moral standing, my soul will decide if i can collaborate with you, my body language will tell me if we can be together in harmony. Also that is the way we make our decisions; have you ever made a decision in which no all of you were in agreement wasn't that a strange experience.
in conclusion to try to explain god as a trinity is a waste of time for it does not makes us any better or any worse if we believe it or not. Like has it made much difference to you; to know that your conscience is independent from your mind, and that your body is independent from your mind and conscience; they are all individuals necessary to make the one, YOU. I did speak about it in the article "effective worship"

This doesn't remotely touch the Trinity.

because i do not believe that is referring to every individual but only to one. That one is the false christ, (or antichrist, the beast who's number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.) the false christ will be received as the messiah by the fleshly jews, because the fleshly jews are still waiting for the christ, and he will display himself in the rebuild temple as being god, "having great power" he will deceive many of the sympathizing christians, even the elect if it were possible. And by what i hear preached in the pentecostal churches, and by the televangelists, the deception of gullible christians and the world has already began. If the israelis are able to rebuild the temple then watch out for the false christ.

A literalistic interpretation of Revelation will only cause problems.

in the end they have no real power, because they do not have the love of God in them.

How do you know that?

 

[AK4]

Quote: freespirit
he would be a religious person, but not a Christian

Well yeah, but all claim they are Christians though

Quote:
yes, but Jesus had the authority, his position is special, we cannot possibly act the way he did, or our fleshly arrogance will appear in our character. We are to speak the truth in love, and it is that truth that cut to the quick, and give rise to violent responses, but we do not purposely stir for that response.

This assumption the church has put out (most likely the early roman catholic church) that we(the “lowly commoners”) or as Paul puts it-- Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. (1Cor 1:26-29). By doing this and making them believe what you have stated they keep the dumb sheep dumb. They don’t want you to expose them for what they are. You seem pretty reasonable and growing in spirit notice this and see that this is a prophecy for our day and age also

"Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But EVIL MEN AND SEDUCERS[Gk: ‘imposters’] SHALL WAX [grow] WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).


And just who is it that grows "worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived?" The men and women of the world? The pagans and heathens? Is this what Paul means? Of course not. These are the leaders of the Church. And in order so that they don’t get expose they tell “the commoners”, the people of their congregation, not to question them and tell them that they have no authority, or the education but Paul addressed that in 1Cor 1:26 . Notice this--


"Preach the word; [the WHOLE Word of God]; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine [Who? The world? The pagans? The atheist? Why they have never had sound doctrine in the first place] but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:2-4).


The leaders try to lord over their congo and that is exactly what Jesus told them not to do.

1 John 4:1-3 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits (ministers, preachers, teachers and their words and doctrines) to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

"...that he may be able to [1] entreat with sound teaching as well as to [2] expose those who contradict" (Titus 1:9, Concordant NT)….. 13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

1 Thess 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.

I could go on and on, but think if another believer starts preaching “another gospeI, "Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ” (Gal1:6-7) is it not in love that you refute them back to or to the knowledge of the truth?

Quote:
yes they are professional religious people, which are devoid of the spirit, they have given their heart to an organization and they defend its doctrines. "ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" i understand the above scriptures as (never able to experience the holiness of god)

They could have experienced this but the could have fallen away. You got to believe the scriptures (not translations) and not the doctrine of once saved always saved. For example..
Luke 9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Quote:
the letters to the seven churches of revelation are clear, also it is clear that the word of god is for a guide and correction only for the believers,
for those who do not believe could not care less what it says.

I totally agree.

i personally have not given much importance to the theory of the trinity, because it try to describe god as a form of existence, which i find unhelpful in my quest for holiness. But in Matthew 28: 19,

the other similar verses with that phrase at the end of Matt 28:19 are documented as spurious and should not be included in the Word. As for Matt 28:19, although it does appear in the oldest complete MSS’s it still could be considered spurious through other outside quotes of that verse from others that doesn’t have that ending in verse 19. Here read this

According to F.C. Conybeare, "Eusebius cites this text again and again in his works written between 300 and 336, namely in his long commentaries on the Psalms, on Isaiah, his Demonstratio Evangelica, his Theophany ...in his famous history of the Church, and in his panegyric of the emperor Constantine. I have, after a moderate search in these works of Eusebius, found eighteen citations of Matthew xxviii. 19, and always in the following form: "
"Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you."

in conclusion to try to explain god as a trinity is a waste of time for it does not makes us any better or any worse if we believe it or not. Like has it made much difference to you;

YES IT HAS!!! It took much prayer and suffering for me to unlearn the trinity and finally know who and what is Jesus and who is His Father. It was the #1 thing I had to learn after learning of the truth of free will. Its almost like I can literally see Jesus now. I do see Him in the scriptures though. It was/still is the most marvelous thing that ever happened to me. Yes to explain the trinity is a waste of time because you have to introduce unscriptural mess in to explain it. Like i quoted to sojourner from hastings dictionary and you can even quote the early roman catholic church saying its illogical and unscriptural.

Once you get all the bugs of the trinity doctrine out you can clearly see the distinction made IN scripture of who Jesus is and who the Father is. I used to believe and try to rationalize like you are doing but still it rendered unscriptural. Consider this written by a friend

Nowhere but in trinitarian theology do we find such unscriptural nonsense. Where in Scripture do we find that man is described as "MIND, body and spirit?" Where? [1] God formed man of the DUST OF THE GROUND --a BODY, and [2] He BREATHED into his nostrils the "BREATH [ruach--SPIRIT] of life. Those are the ONLY two components of man mentioned in the Scriptures. When God put those two (not three) components together, then the MAN became a "LIVING SOUL." Man IS A LIVING SOUL. And when he dies HE IS A DEAD SOUL. That's it! God never "put"a third component of a soul into the man. He IS a soul when he is alive.

 

[sojourner]

This assumption the church has put out (most likely the early roman catholic church) that we(the “lowly commoners&#8221 or as Paul puts it-- Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. (1Cor 1:26-29). By doing this and making them believe what you have stated they keep the dumb sheep dumb. They don’t want you to expose them for what they are. You seem pretty reasonable and growing in spirit notice this and see that this is a prophecy for our day and age also

many times, the educated know things, and find out new things that are true with regard to scriptural study. But the problem is that, many times, the "sheep" don't want to hear it. They rebuke us for upsetting their faith. They'd rather remain ignorant. And then, when they find out that same truth at a time when they are able to hear and absorb it, they rail at us for "not telling them sooner." It's a lose-lose situation.

And in order so that they don’t get expose they tell “the commoners”, the people of their congregation, not to question them and tell them that they have no authority

My church doesn't do this. We encourage study, scholarship, and we welcome differing opinions.

The leaders try to lord over their congo and that is exactly what Jesus told them not to do.

Not our leaders.

1 John 4:1-3 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits (ministers, preachers, teachers and their words and doctrines) to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

"...that he may be able to [1] entreat with sound teaching as well as to [2] expose those who contradict" (Titus 1:9, Concordant NT)….. 13 This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

1 Thess 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Sounds like you've been hurt by clergy in the past. This seems reactionary.

They could have experienced this but the could have fallen away. You got to believe the scriptures (not translations) and not the doctrine of once saved always saved.

Unfortunately, all we have are translations, unless you read Greek fluently. Even then, all we have are edited copies of originals.

I don't know about "once saved always saved," but I do believe there is wide scriptural support for the stance that God will save every person.

YES IT HAS!!! It took much prayer and suffering for me to unlearn the trinity and finally know who and what is Jesus and who is His Father. It was the #1 thing I had to learn after learning of the truth of free will. Its almost like I can literally see Jesus now. I do see Him in the scriptures though. It was/still is the most marvelous thing that ever happened to me. Yes to explain the trinity is a waste of time because you have to introduce unscriptural mess in to explain it. Like i quoted to sojourner from hastings dictionary and you can even quote the early roman catholic church saying its illogical and unscriptural.

Once you get all the bugs of the trinity doctrine out you can clearly see the distinction made IN scripture of who Jesus is and who the Father is. I used to believe and try to rationalize like you are doing but still it rendered unscriptural. Consider this written by a friend

Nowhere but in trinitarian theology do we find such unscriptural nonsense. Where in Scripture do we find that man is described as "MIND, body and spirit?" Where? [1] God formed man of the DUST OF THE GROUND --a BODY, and [2] He BREATHED into his nostrils the "BREATH [ruach--SPIRIT] of life. Those are the ONLY two components of man mentioned in the Scriptures. When God put those two (not three) components together, then the MAN became a "LIVING SOUL." Man IS A LIVING SOUL. And when he dies HE IS A DEAD SOUL. That's it! God never "put"a third component of a soul into the man. He IS a soul when he is alive.

Glad you found something that works for you. That doesn't make everyone else "wrong" and "evil." Since the Church is a living organism, and not a dead museum exhibit, we must expect growth and evolvement. Today's Church is different than the early followers, in several important ways. Our understanding of who God is, who Jesus is, who we are, has changed as the world has changed. There's nothing wrong with that. I expect there will be more changes, too.

I don't buy into your basis for understanding. I don't have to. You have an understanding of the NT that is based in subjectivity. That's fine for you. It's not for most of the rest of us. I'm glad you have an understanding that works for you. God will take care of the rest.

But you need to understand that not everyone has that same understanding (nor do they need to). You further need to understand that your approach is not effective in getting your point across to the rest of us.

 

[AK4]

Quote: freespirit
because i do not believe that is referring to every individual but only to one.... If the israelis are able to rebuild the temple then watch out for the false christ.

This is all part of the deception, strong delusion. There is not A antichrist there are many already in the world

1Jo 2:18 - ...the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists (notice there are many) have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

1Jo 4:3 - but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God (Trinitarians for example). This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2Jo 5:7 - Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person (flesh dies but how many believe Christ actually was dead) is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Quote:
if you have the real god, you would not do that.

Careful with what you say. Satan has deceived the world so much and so well people don’t even realize that they are doing that with the doctrine of freewill. The workings of Satan have deceived the whole world including the ones whom God would later call to be His elect:

“And then shall that Wicked [‘Lawless One’—the beast within all of us] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth (the Word of God), and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [It is not Satan, but is ‘after the working of Satan] with all power and signs and lying wanders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God [yes, God Himself] shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie [Gk: ‘the lie’]…” (II Thes. 2:9-11).

And just how much of mankind and how much of this world has God given to that same Old Serpent to deceive?

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD” (Rev. 12:9).

“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect” (Matt. 24:24)

Once one becomes a member of God’s very elect, he can be deceived no more. Don’t you be deceived.This verse does not say: “Satan, which deceives the whole world (except the two billion twenty-first century professing Christians of the world).” No, Satan deceives “the whole world,” including the two billion professing Christians. How many have escaped the deception of Satan by the use of their “free will?” Not one man possesses a will by which he can freely resist Satan. If we are to “resist the Devil so that he flees from us,” we will need the power of God’s Spirit in us.

Now truly think, do you really believe that the jews will be able to rebuild another temple and be able to sacrifice again in the world we live in now. The world of Christian theology overwhelmingly teaches that the things presented in verses 1 through 9 are for the END OF THE WORLD ONLY, and that they are ABSOLUTELY LITERAL and that this man of sin called the son of perdition will DECEIVE the whole world. . We are in a “spiritual warfare” not physical. The beast is man, the antichrists are man, the number of the beast is mankind. Yes Christian Zionists and other naive Christians have fallen for the dupe of the “jews” being Gods people and the “predictions” of prophecy of man.

Quote:
i do not know anyone to be that pretentious,

No, youre not looking deep enough. No one in their right mind will come out and call themselves God, let alone the whole world be deceived by this man, that most will call an illusionist or something. But all are deceived in the notion of free will where they think that they make choices without a prior cause, seen or unseen. When they do this they deny God completely and don’t even realize theyre opposing and exalting themselves above God calling themselves a god (remember me telling you of the doctrine of one coming to Christ on their own)when in reality they are the son of perdition, man of sin, THE BEAST. Many don’t know that mankind is the beast

"Nevertheless man being in honor abides not [does not endure]: he is LIKE THE BEASTS that perish" and "…he is LIKE THE BEASTS that perish: (Ps. 49:12, 20).

"One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, EVIL BEASTS, slow bellies [lazy gluttons]. This witness is true" (Titus 1:12-13).

"But these, as NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (II Pet. 2:12).

"So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as A BEAST before thee" (Psalm 73:22).

"But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, AS BRUTE BEASTS, in those things they corrupt themselves" (Jude 10).

"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves ARE BEASTS" (Ecclesiastes 3:18).

The man of sin sits on the throne of his own carnal mind, in his own body (temple of God) claiming powers that rival those of God Himself! Our man of sin claims a spiritual power so great that it believes it can literally thwart and dethrone God Himself from our hearts. This super-natural power of the will is assumed by nearly everyone in the whole world. Heres a couple of better translations of 2 Thes. 2:4

"he opposing and lifting up himself above all being called a god or an august object, so that him into the temple of the God to be seated, openly showing himself, that he is a god" (Emphatic Diaglott)

"…who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, claiming that he is a god." (NAB)

And therefore, if anyone could: (1) bring about thoughts or actions that have NO CAUSE, that is thoughts and actions that were created by the person himself and were not influenced, caused, made, forced, or in another way brought about, and that (2) such a person would then have the power to THWART THE VERY WILL OF GOD, by thinking and doing things that God does not approve of, but would never interfere with, then, indeed, that person could claim to be "a god"!! And it is this very "god" that sits on the throne of men’s hearts, which throne was created for Jesus Christ to be seated in the power of Holy Spirit.

And just how powerful is this "god" that sits on the throne of all unconverted men? It is so powerful that those who presume to possess this will of the mind that is absolutely "FREE" from any and all causality, can either bring about their own salvation or choose to reject their own salvation, AND NO POWER IN HEAVEN OR EARTH CAN THWART THEM. THEY can thwart God’s purpose, but GOD cannot thwart their purpose. That my friends is "…OPPOSING and EXALTING oneself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that such an one as God sits in the temple of God [which temple our bodies are] showing oneself that he IS a god" (my paraphrase). Ask yourself, how many earthlings might be deceived by this man of sin if he were to hide in the hearts and minds of men in a way that they themselves would be completely at home with this man of sin, the son of perdition?

I guess that’s enough for now. Just something to think on for ya.

 

[sojourner]

but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God (Trinitarians for example).

Of course Trinitarians acknowledge that Jesus "is from God." Why do you feel you have to misrepresent us?

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world.

I don't know of any orthodox Christians who don't believe Jesus as coming in the flesh. In fact, the Nicene Creed says as much: "We believe in Jesus Christ...who was incarnate...and was made man."

Once one becomes a member of God’s very elect, he can be deceived no more.

The Church is the elect. How, then, can you say that the Church has been deceived?

The world of Christian theology overwhelmingly teaches that the things presented in verses 1 through 9 are for the END OF THE WORLD ONLY, and that they are ABSOLUTELY LITERAL and that this man of sin called the son of perdition will DECEIVE the whole world.

Christian theology does not teach absolute literalism. Once again, you misrepresent.

When they do this they deny God completely

No, we don't. How else can God be approached in love, except from free will?

I guess that’s enough for now.

It was enough a long time ago.

 

[free spirit]

to sojorner

who are you speaking about here?

to those religious people that are like those who killed Stephen.

how do you know whether someone is "devoid of the spirit?" what gives you the authority to make such a judgment?

it is written, "you shall know them by their love"

this doesn't remotely touch the trinity.

the trinity is a theory to explain the mystery of god, as far as i know it is still a mystery today. I see myself as been made in the image of god, therefore i see myself as a trinity; because i have a conscience which has a mind of its own, i have a soul (my character) that can make decisions of its own, and i have a body which lust's have a mind of its own. Unless i am an alien to the human race, all human are the same as i. But it is only another theory in which i am comfortable with. What is your theory?

a literalistic interpretation of revelation will only cause problems.

yes that is correct, but Jesus said that we were going to have problems, so it is expected. In mark 13: 9, we read, "but be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, as a testimony to them. And john 16: 2, we read, "they will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to god." so there you have it, where Christians are victim of religious fiver.

how do you know that?[/quote

]
Because if they had power the miracles that they claim to have performed would be in the news, as a witness of God workings.

 

[sojourner]

to those religious people that are like those who killed Stephen.

In other words, like the people who condemn homosexuals, or who call clergy "liars" and "deceivers?"

it is written, "you shall know them by their love"

It's also written that you can't always tell the difference. I know lots of people who deny God's existence, yet love others greatly. I also know many who are "Godly," but hate those who are different from them.

the trinity is a theory to explain the mystery of god, as far as i know it is still a mystery today. I see myself as been made in the image of god, therefore i see myself as a trinity; because i have a conscience which has a mind of its own, i have a soul (my character) that can make decisions of its own, and i have a body which lust's have a mind of its own. Unless i am an alien to the human race, all human are the same as i. But it is only another theory in which i am comfortable with. What is your theory?

the Trinity is not based upon the nature of humanity, but upon the nature of God, as we have witnessed it.

yes that is correct, but Jesus said that we were going to have problems, so it is expected. In mark 13: 9, we read, "but be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, as a testimony to them. And john 16: 2, we read, "they will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to god." so there you have it, where Christians are victim of religious fiver.

"Jesus said that there would be problems, so it's OK to cause them." Sheesh! That's tantamount to saying, "Jesus said that all have sinned, therefore, it's OK to sin."
A literalistic interpretation causes problems, not because Jesus said there would be problems, but because such interpretation misrepresents a) the texts, b) the body that produced them, c) the God that body espouses, d) the world, as it really is.

Because if they had power the miracles that they claim to have performed would be in the news, as a witness of God workings.

Many televangelists don't perform miracles.