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Do You Support Lowering The Federal Election Age to 16?

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by esmith, Mar 15, 2019.

?
  1. Yes

    14.6%
  2. No

    78.0%
  3. Undecided

    7.3%
  1. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    I can agree with that.

    With that in mind I do wonder how many parents take up such a task. Seems more like a college thing these days.
     
  2. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    What about development, maturity, and experience?
     
  3. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    There are, of course, always exceptions to larger trends (and psychology is perhaps one of the strongest supporters of this fact). But it cannot be denied that there are definitely trends of behaviors found within teenagers and emerging adults, and it is tied to the fact their brain is not yet fully matured. It has nothing to do with who they run with, background, and parents, but the very fact that even 20 years is not enough for full maturation. Literally, at 20 years old, we are still "under cooked," we are still developing, and we have yet to reach full maturation. The line from the Alice Cooper song I'm Eighteen "I'm a boy but I'm a man" perfectly describes what is going on mentally at that age. Physically most people are pretty much done with physical development at that age, and a good part of mental maturation is done. And indeed that leads to an adult body with some adult thoughts and behaviors. However, the part of the brain that has not yet matured does tend to leave teens and emerging adults in a rut of reckless abandon until the rest of their brain is done developing. It's why pretty much no one is the same at 30 as they were at 20. It's not just living experience, but very much because at 30 we've had our fully matured brain for a few years whereas at 20 we are still a few years away from having it.
     
  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    It's an assumption, but I assume it's probably not much better than the number of parents who actively teach their children about sex. (in other words, it's not happening nearly often enough and thus we need to include in school curriculum because someone does have to teach the kids about these subjects). I base this on the facts that not many people actually do vote, legions of people do not know what impeachment is, and a general confusion over basic Constitutional law and how the US government actually works. Or maybe they are teaching, but it's often not accurate information (this tends to also happen with sex talks between parent and child).
     
  5. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Sure I can get on board with that. I would add in general parenting time has been reduced for many due to work thus priorities could overshadow a lot of other lessons. Education for example
     
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  6. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    It should be the same age as you are legally allowed to leave school and begin full time work. As full time tax payers, they should have a say.
     
  7. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure about the US but in the UK you can't vote until you are 18 but...

    You can join the army/navy/air force at 16
    You can drive a car at 17

    If you are old enough to fight for your country, you should be able to vote.
     
  8. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Public K-12 or post too?
     
  9. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Problem is the military indoctrination compared to none at all. A soldier has a certain level of training to become an actual soldier while a normal 16 has what exactly?
     
  10. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    If I would favor the right for a 16 year old to get an abortion or begin the steps toward transitioning, why on earth would you think I would disfavor them from voting.


    I am sure I need not tell you the value of kinesthetic learning or grounding learning with meaningful experience.

    I wouldn't necessarily oppose 14 year olds either. But as you get younger you move closer to increased parental influence and less abstract thought. Further decreasing the age brings us closer to a time when these kids are jist beginning to work through Identity vs. role confusion. Hopefully the kid has some time to sort through this stage. Learning who they are politically is part of that process and discovering how to interact in civically, how to affect change, etc fits well within this stage.

    The slippery slope doesn't keep sliding in this. You are up against some major changes as you try to keep pushing backwards. Again, I would reiterate that I do not necessarily oppose 14 year olds voting either.
     
    #70 Curious George, Mar 16, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
  11. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Lol. People of all ages are hideously immature.
     
  12. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    Sort of how we do it now. Just toss them to the sharks (if checking a box is a shark).

    We needn't force them to vote. And voting is not that harmful. I see no reason you have offered as a barrier. This is not a major life choice we are discussing.
     
  13. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    I think parents have and do neglect much teaching. Perhaps if they were better taught themselves.
     
  14. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Whatever age you are no longer required by law to be in full time secondary education. Usually somewhere in the 16-18 range depending on country.
     
  15. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Very few doctors do support full medical transition at 16, with drugs to halt the onset of puberty being what most will prescribe at that age. And I do agree with that, at least to an extent (such as, until a time that it's demonstrated that preventing the puberty of the birth-assigned gender is appropriate and not the part of a sexual fetish or mental illness, things clinicians must consider even for adults).
    Yes, it can, because in terms of maturation there isn't that much difference between a 14 year old and a 16 year old, and 14 does dip much lower into childhood years. And these "major changes" are contending against biological fact.
    And, as for 14 year olds, they aren't even old enough to work (with the exception of a few places, often revolving around agriculture). We also have this novel idea of adolescence, which is a sort of in between time/extended childhood that historically didn't exist in prior times (traditionally people went straight from childhood to adulthood at around the onset of puberty). We should probably continue to utilize this development instead of returning to a time of thrusting adulthood upon those who are not of physical and mental maturation.
     
  16. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    I did not say full transition, did I? I said begin the steps of transition and also used abortion as another major decision with which I would empower 16 year olds without parental approval. Voting is a cake walk next to those.

    Your point here is not clear.
    Voting is not thrusting them into adulthood. Nor is it even comparable to allowing a kid to work (though 16 year olds can surely do that). You are making voting more intense than it is. Civic involvement is important, there are no reasons to exclude 16 and 17 year olds from that. It is no more stressful and burdensome on them than their current situation which see them face the same issues, the same laws but without voice and without representation.
     
  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    You clearly ignored the reasons I gave, and you fail to consider how elections have consequences for beyond the what box someone checks. It's why personally I myself (and the Founding Fathers) are opposed to Democracy because no one can have all the information needed to make an informed decision on every election on every issue and candidate. How people vote has consequences for others. If it were up to me, there would be high standards to vote (not impossible, but if you think tests of religious faith are suitable to hold office or think impeachment is to remove someone from office you need to be educated about the system before you can make decisions about it) and even higher standards to run for office (most of what we have today would automatically be disqualified). The state isn't a game or a corporation, and consistently electing bad leaders has consistently lead to bad results abroad (especially in terms of how many places America has bombed and sent troops to).
    When it comes to children, they are children. They need not be overly concerned about doing adult things.
     
  18. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Crazy Diamond

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    Transitioning and abortions effect those who get them. Voting effects everyone.
    It is.
    As I've been saying, it's adding one more facet of adulthood onto childhood.
     
  19. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    No they just need to sit down and concern themselves over adult thing quietly.

    Do you honestly think the issues that will affect them had they the ability to vote do not currently affect them? Yes, voting has consequence. And a 16 year old is capable of appreciating that consequence just as well as they are capable of appreciating the consequences of their current choices and their choices with which we would advocate to empower them (i.e. abortion, beginning transition, vaccination without parental consent, etc.)
     
  20. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    And much more drastically than voting.
    So does vaccination, protesting, driving, working, etc.

    It seems the crux is that you simply don't trust 16 year olds.

    Then it is not clear to me. Perhaps you would care to rephrase.
    Yeah, not really. It is adding a facet of citizenship not adulthood. You simply have it tied to adulthood in your mind. Making choices for themselves is not outside of age appropriate development, no matter how much you want it so.
     
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