Earthling
David Henson
Well, sure, I know that, though when I was sleeping and it was like a dream I would think it was real. The voices were experienced in the light of day, outside, while wide awake. Told me things that came true.
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do you believe that the Garden of Eden is a real place?
- Thread starter Elliott5779
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Well, sure, I know that, though when I was sleeping and it was like a dream I would think it was real. The voices were experienced in the light of day, outside, while wide awake. Told me things that came true.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
OK....I see that in search of brevity, I descended into incomprehension, all because of pronouns.
Try this:
It's always wise to believe someone who says s/he is a Christian.
It is not wise to believe anybody who says someone else is not.
If someone says that he is not a Christian (referring to himself) it's probably a good idea to believe him. He would, after all, know.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
He practiced Judaism as laid out in the Torah, like today tradition is a human, irrelevant idea.
Hi URAVIP2ME,
Here is some food for thought concerning two possible creations. Take a look at how they enter the ark in the flood narrative. They are kept separate on the ark. There is more to this than what is on face value.
Genesis 7: (13-16) 13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.
Now there are two important things to notice in Genesis 7 (13-14). Notice in 14 that the ones entering the ark are those from the second creation,
Genesis 1: (24-25) 24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
and notice that they (The second creation, those “after His kind”) enter in the same day Noah and his family enter.
Now Notice Genesis 7:15 ,these are the creatures from the first creation (Those with the breath of life.) and they enter after Noah, his family, and the creatures from the second creation. See below.
Genesis 2:7 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Also notice that the ones from the first creation enter after Noah, his family, and the ones from the second creation (“after His kind”).
It's interesting. Not everything is as cut and dry as most would think. They are different.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
That would make for an interesting thread for you to take up and debate against the Jewish members here.
Here is some good information to assist in the location. Here is the Genesis scripture with the description of it location along with Ezekiel 31. It gives more details and further connects it with Assyria and Lebanon. I have also added a map.
Genesis 2: (10-14)
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Ezekiel 31: (3-18)
3 ¶Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. * 4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. 5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. 6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. 7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. 10 ¶Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; 11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness. 12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him. 13 Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches: 14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit. 15 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. 16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. 17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. 18 ¶To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.
Genesis 2: (10-14)
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Ezekiel 31: (3-18)
3 ¶Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. * 4 The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. 5 Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. 6 All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations. 7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters. 8 The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. 9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. 10 ¶Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; 11 I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness. 12 And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him. 13 Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches: 14 To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit. 15 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. 16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. 17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. 18 ¶To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord God.
Attachments
Altfish
Veteran Member
As you say, you presented a 'Perspective' that eliminated my contradictions. In other words you weaselled out of my evidence. I don't accept your 'perspective'; I stand by my claim that they are contradictions.
The fact that you don't accept it doesn't make me wrong. It is like Ken Ham and the like on evidence for evolution - it is never accepted.
shmogie
Well-Known Member
Why ? Most are Talmudic Jews, something Jesus was not.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Reread your response after metabolizing the wine.......we agree.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Because the Jews tend to know more about their own religion than the two of us combined will ever know.
Earthling
David Henson
True, they do know more about their own religion, but when it comes to the Bible, they, the sages, haven't a monopoly on knowledge. Their religion distorts their interpretation just as with Christians. Their religion is about tradition. A Jewish Rabbi will arrogantly dismiss a goyim interpretation as inferior and hey - you are no Levite, the Pharisees done away with them when the temple was destroyed. Moses was most certainly no Rabbi. You, Rabbi, are a Pharisee.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Not a monopoly, but when it comes to the Tanakh they do know more about the original language, cultural context, and historical data that will give them a better understanding of the OT than Christians who approach it from a Christian perspective. And even those who know there are differences and that Christianity distorts the Tanakh from its Jewish perspective will still often not be aware of the numerous "things" (such as cultural practices, laws, religious observances and rituals) that those who come from a Christian background will be oblivious to.
Earthling
David Henson
No. The two are different sides of the same coin. The cultural and historical value of the modern Jew is just as distorted as the modern Christians, only different. The tribe of Levi produced the official priests, the Pharisees began to covet that power and take it over for their own religiosity. That's why Jesus had such a difficult time with them. That's why they rejected him and had the Romans kill him. Jesus was the real thing, the Pharisees were the wolf in sheep's clothing. The Modern Jew isn't the product of Moses they are a product of the Pharisees who got it all wrong, because they couldn't see the heart of the Law, they distorted the Law and made their own traditions.
Linguistically they may have an advantage over Christians, but that's pointless if the interpretation of the language is distorted by apostate traditions, or as Jesus often said, the traditions of men. The Pharisees took the law and exaggerated it to gain power and lord it over others. Just as the Christians did, in fact, to an advantage over the Jew. The Christians beat them at their own game, but just because they have the numbers. They are really the same thing. Religion gone bad.
If you take away all of that religious nonsense, that religious greed that distorts truth, of both Jewish and Christian, then you have the truth. The trouble then is it all starts to repeat itself. That's what you see with the Jehovah's Witnesses. They stripped down all of the Jewish and Christian religious crap and exposed the truth, then started to make the same mistakes. Get the truth, forget the religion.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Another reason why I enjoy reading such debates: Christians--the outsiders who appropriated the Hebrew religion for themselves for their own use and purpose--telling Jews they're getting their own religion wrong is such an arrogant claim that making that point alone tends to shut down debates.
Earthling
David Henson
But that's a common fallacy. Let me show you and then you tell me if you can at least see the logic in it. Put simply the Christians, with their Christian Greek scriptures, continued the Hebrew / Aramaic Scriptures when the Jews abandoned them even according to those very same Hebrew / Aramaic scriptures. Then, over time, the Christians did the same. Religion always does this. Look at the teachings of Buddha compared to modern day Buddhism or the teachings of Lao Tzu and modern day Taoism.
An example of this happening. Jesus and his disciples washed their hands before a meal, as was according to the Hebrew custom at the time, but the Pharisees criticized them because they didn't wash their hands up to the elbows as their own transmogrification of the Hebrew custom dictated.
Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath by the Jews, but David had done the same with no reproval from Jehovah. The Levite priests often broke the sabbath, for example, when circumcising babies. If the 8th day after birth fell on a sabbath then the priests circumcised. But the Pharisees condemned Jesus for breaking the sabbath, even though they, later, would eagerly gather wood to burn Christians on a sabbath. It's just religious hypocrisy.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Is that why I've seen countless threads here on RF where the Jews are having to correct the false assumptions Christians make about Judaism and Hebrew tradition?
Earthling
David Henson
Well, as much as I would like to say so I don't think the Christians are up for it. They (Christians and Jews) are in the same sinking ship arguing among themselves. The modern day Christian don't have the sense to defend themselves against such criticism. First they would have to familiarize themselves with Judaism and distinguish that from the Hebrew / Aramaic Scriptures (i.e., so called OT) which would eventually include a pretty unflattering self examination of their own teachings.
But don't fool yourself. They are both the same. The idea that Christianity in it's original form ripped off the Jews and hijacked their religion isn't an accurate one. Just read the parable Jesus gave of the Wedding Feast and compare that to the Jew's own scripture where they clearly rejected God's covenant with them and so he rejected them and extended their hope of eternal reward to gentile Christians, including Jews like Jesus and his disciples, apostles and, as much as people seem to despise him, Paul.
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Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
There is a promised messiah from the God of Abraham to the Hebrews. The Christians took it upon themselves to fill this messiah role, attach it to the Hebrew god, and claim the Prophets as a part of their own religion.
Earthling
David Henson
If a man beats the **** out of another man because he disagrees with his preference for a specific sports team the first man is in violation of the law and rightly subjected to public scorn.
If a man beats the **** out of another man because he is attempting to kidnap, rape and murder a child then the first man may be in violation of the law, but mercy is likely granted due to the circumstances and the public, rightly, praise his efforts as heroic.
If a man beats the **** out of another man because he is attempting to kidnap, rape and murder a child but the law and the public are confused and ignorant to the fact that the second man was in fact up to no good the first man would likely be subjected to the full penalty of law and subjected to public scorn and ridicule.
You are confused and ignorant of the meticulous Hebrew records and prophecies regarding the Messiah. You underestimate the Hebrew God and the Hebrew people who produced those records and prophecies, which the aforementioned Pharisees could not and therefore did not dispute. The Christians could not possibly have done what you claim. Jesus was the only person in recorded history that could ever claim, rightfully to be the authentic Messiah promised to the Jews by the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, namely, Jehovah God.
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I believe that the description of the Garden is fashioned after the lush gardens of Babylon, where Gen was compiled during the Exile.