Do you believe in reincarnation or rebirth?

[Gambit]

Do you believe in reincarnation or rebirth?

 

[jeager106]

No.

 

[te_lanus]

We did have a recent thread about it. Me answer is Yes

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

I believe in hereafter.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I'm unsure if it is considered reincarnation but, I think we are all a part of one entity (God/universe) and never separate from it. So the only thing different in death is the animation that controlled the body ceases to be. If you consider that separateness from God is an illusion, you could say that death is just disillusionment. We are all ONE soul. Many bodies.

I'm hoping for some reincarnation believers to answer a quick question: How is reincarnation significantly different than nonexistence after death? If we are unaware of the process itself?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Indeed. It always made the most logical sense to me. I never was able to believe in the idea that there's one life and then you go on to some eternal destination, even while Catholic. Similarly, the idea that we cease to exist after brain death is equally ludicrous, imo.

 

[Gambit]

I'm unsure if it is considered reincarnation but, I think we are all a part of one entity (God/universe) and never separate from it. So the only thing different in death is the animation that controlled the body ceases to be. If you consider that separateness from God is an illusion, you could say that death is just disillusionment. We are all ONE soul. Many bodies.

IOW, God's self is the only individual who is actually reincarnating. Right?

 

[arthra]

I don't believe in reincarnation... I also don't believe in "incarnation" where the soul in incarnate in the flesh.. rather for me the soul is associated with the body and when the body is no longer required the soul is in the spiritual world. The soul takes identity at the conception of the embryo, but not "in" the body, rather, associated with it like light to a mirror.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Oi dunno.

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you believe in reincarnation?

Darn right I do not. And I don't have any degree of sympathy for the very concept, either. It is incredibly suspect, surprisingly contradictory, and rather dangerous.

It is, in essence, claiming that something that we know not to be true must somehow be true anyway.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is incredibly suspect, surprisingly contradictory, and rather dangerous.

Could you elaborate, particularly on the dangerous bit?

 

[YmirGF]

Yes, I do believe in reincarnation, but certainly not in the popular variations found in a several of the worlds religions. I do agree with Luis that those popular variations can be the root of dangerous thinking and resultant behavior.

 

[LuisDantas]

Could you elaborate, particularly on the dangerous bit?

My pleasure.

While there are various understandings of reincarnation floating about, at its most basic it is all about claiming that there is some sort of significant, meaningful link between two specific people that are not living at the same time. Some conceptions of it, at least in fiction, seem to even believe that we literally repeat previous lives in bodies with much the same phenotype (and therefore general appearance) that we had in previous lives.

Of course, even firm proponents of reincarnation admit that it is statistically rare for people to have much in the way of clear and meaningful memories of any previous lives. They may insist that it happens and feel strongly about it, even seek evidence for it and claim that it is meaningful and convincing. But they will end up agreeing that it does not happen at all often, because it obviously does not. We are not the living equivalent of movie serials. We do not generally just remember and resume our previous lives in the way that a movie director might resume a movie from where the previous one ended. If that does happen at all, it is certainly with very few people, at least in recorded history. I think we can all agree on that.

So what would reincarnation be for most people? In the typical teachings about the concept, it is a rather more vague link than that of memories. And then we have to distinguish among a few specific, competing understandings of reincarnation.

The spiritist understanding of reincarnation (very popular in Brazil) is most disturbing in that it insists that reincarnation is pretty much universal, automatic if of wildly variable waiting periods, and meaningful mainly because it allows people to be both punished and rewarded for whatever their previous lives might have done. This is a conception that acknowledges that memories are usually lost from the transition between incarnations, yet insists that personal merits and moral debts are definitely kept, and rigorously so at that. Much of spiritism is an almost accountant-like approach towards belief, with frequent questions and statements about how much one's karma measures and how much of it can be paid by whatever deeds.

It is one of the most unhealthy attempts at belief that I have ever met.

Why? Because it is so unashamedly materialistic and individualistic while making a point of denouncing both materialism and individualism.

Kardecist Spiritism is in essence a belief disease, a very serious one, and its version of reincarnationist belief is one of its most grave symptoms and spread mechanisms. Much of its practice amounts to insisting that the reality of facts is ultimately of lesser importance when confronted by the passionate conviction of their beliefs.

Which is to say, it is a practice of voluntarily developing schizophrenia to the best of their abilities. And boy, does it show.

A dedicated spiritist will only rarely deign to make concessions to objective reality, "because they are aimed towards the spiritual world, not the material one". It is not unusual to see, for instance, a spiritist say he does not care that the archeological reconstruction of the likely appearance of Jesus is not similar to what he wants to believe it to be, "because he has settled on it already" or something comparably self-serving and shamelessly alienated.

Not a small part of that largely voluntary illness is their variety of reincarnationist belief, that must insist that all people (except those in their first incarnation, which are very much the exception) somehow "deserve" both the reward and blame of their previous lives despite literally knowing and remembering nothing of them, Further yet, they also insist that repeated, literally unending interactions of those suspect cycles of reincarnation are in fact needed for all people to attain their spiritual prowess, which is taught to be unlimited, irreversible and unending.

As one can imagine, and as facts bear out, such a belief system is very suitable for all kinds of egotistical fantasies. People keep finding out that they are reincarnations of all manners of impressive figures, which seems to somehow make little difference to their current lives, yet has a lot of emotional significance. It is practically a cult of self-delusion, just a short step away of actually presenting itself as such.

I can't speak much about other reincarnationist beliefs, mostly because I don't understand them. I will however point out that most if not all seem to share that dilemma of how to deal with the fact that is is so rare for people to have any meaningful memories of past lives.

 

[YmirGF]

My pleasure.

While there are various understandings of reincarnation floating about, at its most basic it is all about claiming that there is some sort of significant, meaningful link between two specific people that are not living at the same time. Some conceptions of it, at least in fiction, seem to even believe that we literally repeat previous lives in bodies with much the same phenoyipe (and therefore general appearance) that we had in previous lives.

Of course, even firm proponents of reincarnation admit that it is statistically rare for people to have much in the way of clear and meaningful memories of any previous lives. They may insist that it happens and feel strongly about it, even seek evidence for it and claim that it is meaningful and convincing. But they will end up agreeing that it does not happen at all often, because it obviously does not. We are not the living equivalent of movie serials. We do not generally just remember and resume our previous lives in the way that a movie director might resume a movie from where the previous one ended. If that does happen at all, it is certainly with very few people, at least in recorded history. I think we can all agree on that.

So what would reincarnation be for most people? In the typical teachings about the concept, it is a rather more vague link than that of memories. And then we have to distinguish among a few specific, competing understandings of reincarnation.

The spiritist understanding of reincarnation (very popular in Brazil) is most disturbing in that it insists that reincarnation is pretty much universal, automatic if of wildly variable waiting periods, and meaningful mainly because it allows people to be both punished and rewarded for whatever their previous lives might have done. This is a conception that acknowledges that memories are usually lost from the transition between incarnations, yet insists that personal merits and moral debts are definitely kept, and rigorously so at that. Much of spiritism is an almost accountant-like approach towards belief, with frequent questions and statements about how much one's karma measures and how much of it can be paid by whatever deeds.

It is one of the most unhealthy attempts at belief that I have ever met.

Why? Because it is so unashamedly materialistic and individualistic while making a point of denouncing both materialism and individualism.

Kardecist Spiritism is in essence a belief disease, a very serious one, and its version of reincarnationist belief is one of its most grave symptoms and spread mechanisms. Much of its practice amounts to insisting that the reality of facts is ultimately of lesser importance when confronted by the passionate conviction of their beliefs.

Which is to say, it is a practice of voluntarily developing schizophrenia to the best of their abilities. And boy, does it show.

A dedicated spiritist will only rarely deign to make concessions to objective reality, "because they are aimed towards the spiritual world, not the material one". It is not unusual to see, for instance, a spiritist say he does not care that the archeological reconstruction of the likely appearance of Jesus is not similar to what he wants to believe it to be, "because he has settled on it already" or something comparably self-serving and shamelessly alienated.

Not a small part of that largely voluntary illness is their variety of reincarnationist belief, that must insist that all people (except those in their first incarnation, which are very much the exception) somehow "deserve" both the reward and blame of their previous lives despite literally knowing and remembering nothing of them, Further yet, they also insist that repeated, literally unending interactions of those suspect cycles of reincarnation are in fact needed for all people to attain their spiritual prowess, which is taught to be unlimited, irreversible and unending.

As one can imagine, and as facts bear out, such a belief system is very suitable for all kinds of egotistical fantasies. People keep finding out that they are reincarnations of all manners of impressive figures, which seems to somehow make little difference to their current lives, yet has a lot of emotional significance. It is practically a cult of self-delusion, just a short step away of actually presenting itself as such.

I can't speak much about other reincarnationist beliefs, mostly because I don't understand them. I will however point out that most if not all seem to share that dilemma of how to deal with the fact that is is so rare for people to have any meaningful memories of past lives.

That is a super impressive read, Luis. It sums up much of my hesitations about standard models of reincarnation I have read about. I have a more holistic view of reincarnation that would take many posts to fully flesh out. Oddly, my infantile view is deeply rooted in the Here Now of the Present and the other aspects of identity do not necessarily have any interaction whatsoever with the current self. The concept is quite a bit more complex than I think most writers on the subject would admit.

 

[BSM1]

My wife believes in reincarnation and she claims we have been together in previous lives. She sites convincing details of such that's a little scary. Like I posted in another thread, I don't believe in reincarnation nor did I believe in it in three of my previous lives.

 

[StarryNightshade]

I do, but I don't put too much focus on it. As I've said before, I's rather focus on this life.

 

[JRMcC]

I believe in hereafter.

Why?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I voted "don't know". As Thomas Paine wrote, I have no certain information about what will happen in the next life, but I trust that God will maintain me has he has in this one.

If I were to follow the consensus like a good pagan, I'd be dubious: a general belief in reincarnation (rather than admission that it may occur sometimes or belief by small groups) is largely confined to India, and even there it's post-Vedic.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Why?

Hereafter is when the Truth will triumph over fasehood, and that Allah may reward the people of truth for their patience & strong belief in the unseen.

It is the start of the real life. This worldly life is only temporary.

 

[George-ananda]

I can't speak much about other reincarnationist beliefs, mostly because I don't understand them. I will however point out that most if not all seem to share that dilemma of how to deal with the fact that is is so rare for people to have any meaningful memories of past lives.

As for other reincarnationist beliefs and memory here is how I understand it from a Hinduish perspective.

We have a soul that exists for many lifetimes (until even the soul merges to its source in liberation). The soul has full memory of all its past experiences. A new incarnation starts with a clean slate mind (made of newly formed physical, astral and mental components). The soul through its accumulated wisdom guides the new incarnation and gains more advancement through this process. After life ends on the physical plane, it continues on the astral plane, and then on the mental plane. After the entire cycle of an incarnation is spent out only the soul remains. In the souls quest for advancement it will usually spawn a new incarnation.

Echo memories of past lives from the soul experienced by the new incarnation are usually faint if noticed at all.