moon light
even mind can not be trusted only inspiration
Do you believe in karma theory?
If you believe , why the righteous do not rule the world?
If you believe , why the righteous do not rule the world?
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Do you believe in karma theory?
- Thread starter moon light
- Start date
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
No. I don't believe in karma but I do recognize karma in terms of cause and effect. I'm more privy to Chaos Theory.
It's definitely not some super duper cosmic scorecard that automatically tallies up a person's deeds and misdeeds that grants favors or meets out punishments. It's hard now to imagine why people would even believe in things like that, but then again, I used to be a theist.
Incidentally, I don't think either evil or righteous concepts reigns supreme, given versions of what's right or not befits a sliding scale comprised of perspective and opinion more than anything else.
Foxic
Member
Karma is a pretty sentiment, but it's no more real than the god(s) concept. The truth is that rude and downright mean people constantly sail through life without experiencing any issues or upsets or "divine karma" kicking them in the butt.
One of the main reasons man created the idea of karma, or even divine justice met out by a deity, was because man thought it unfair how some people seemed to escape any sort of punishment for their conceived wrongdoings or antisocial behavior. Invent a vengeful god and a hell for "sinners", and suddenly man feels better about that which is out of his control to change or fix.
One of the main reasons man created the idea of karma, or even divine justice met out by a deity, was because man thought it unfair how some people seemed to escape any sort of punishment for their conceived wrongdoings or antisocial behavior. Invent a vengeful god and a hell for "sinners", and suddenly man feels better about that which is out of his control to change or fix.
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I know the feeling my life so far has been a mix of success and failure.
Like a lot of people I consider myself on the losing side more often than not so I just sing Petty's, "Even the losers get lucky sometimes". *Grin*
moon light
even mind can not be trusted only inspiration
So God created the world without offering a solution to the cause of injustice
WalterTrull
Godfella
We do not live in a vacuum. We carry our thoughts. They spread out. Remember Joe Btfsplk? It's sort of like that. Hopefully your cloud is white.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Karma in what I believe in the Buddhistic sense is your karma/actions influence whether you experience benefit or consequence of your actions.
In a Buddhistic sense, the righteous, if you mean pride through riches, does not develop anything benefitial to ones well being. So, its not that the persons righeous that has something to do with karma but whether his Actions is a benefit to his well being or a consequence. The Buddha talks a out no one is exludee from birth and death. No king, no rightous. We are all in the same boat.
I dont understand what "rule the world" means outside of movies, but if that righteous persons actions benefit the well being of self and others, I guess ruling the world is possible. Ut only in a communal sense not dictarorial. I dont know the role of karma outside of The Buddha's Dharma.
Rule the world?
It isn't really a belief; personally perceive we could photo a karma balance with the right equipment; it is like feng shui is similar.
Energy is everywhere; where this can be positively and negatively charged.
Because according to the Dharmic, Zoroastrian, and Abrahamic eschatologies we're in a time of ungodliness to catch out all the demons in this realm, which shall be removed instantly with holy fire.
You see karma sticks negatively to demons; thus when the holy fire comes, they sink in it, as their own negative karma balance weighs them down.
In my opinion.
Karma does not suggest that righteous people will rule the world or even get rewarded in this life.
Karma is not a scorecard magically giving people what they want for being good and punishing the bad.
Of course how karma relates to belief of the theory or the theology depends on the other beliefs a person has.
I see it more as a cause and effect thing. But that's just my view.
Karma is not a scorecard magically giving people what they want for being good and punishing the bad.
Of course how karma relates to belief of the theory or the theology depends on the other beliefs a person has.
I see it more as a cause and effect thing. But that's just my view.
Yes. The world is works.
Why should righteous rule the world? Does ‘karma’ theory predict so? Those who aspire to rule, undertake appropriate actions (impelled by their aspirations) and attain to appropriate results. A person may aspire to rule righteously, however.
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K - Know your center
A - Aware
R - Relax
M - Move
KARM is the way to go
A - A for too much effort, and you get on the hamster wheel of KARMA.
A - Aware
R - Relax
M - Move
KARM is the way to go
A - A for too much effort, and you get on the hamster wheel of KARMA.
Which Karma?
Almost every Asian religion views karma slightly differently. There isn't even agreement under the various sects of Hinduism on that subject. The points of contention include the nature of acts, previously accumulate karma from previous incarnations, and even whether said karma is dissolved by achieving enlightenment. Some believe by becoming enlightened they will only have to play out their existing karma, others believe it is immediately dissolved when one achieves realization of ones own divine nature. These sort of things make it impossible to have a fixed definition of karma, for example. Anyway, your good or bad acts according to most karma understandings may be relatively unimportant - you could have pulled some whoppers in the past lives either way that essentially make the minor acts in your current life irrelevant. The gravity of those previous acts, for example, may be much more than any in your current lifetime.
Dharma is probably a more relevant discussion here.
Dharma is doing, basically. It is the philosophy and practice of 'right action' where as karma is its effect. It is what you can do about the karma, basically. It doesn't do anything about the karma directly, it just prevents you from adding more bad. Doing the right action leads to the situation where all of the bad karma can be used up, so there is no more bad to suffer through. Once one does that, they become liberated from karma, and no longer incur any karma. Some at this juncture claim you still reincarnate, some don't and say you are free from the cycle of births and deaths at this point. Again, this issue is neither agreed upon either... Just presenting this for completeness. Anyway, to sum up - specifically the righteous person you mentioned would lack exactly the worldly desire, selfishness, and ego that makes for success in ruling things. Rarely these days does a ruler get to power via their profound intelligence or wisdom, and that would be the only way you could simultaneously be enlightened and ruling anything. Most, after becoming enlightened, would reject such activities so that should be noted here.
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I could see some things in my life as being karma but I tend not to. One example. I cut myself at home opening a can of tuna. I recognised that it probably required stitching, so I drove to the hospital. It was New Years Eve, about lunchtime, so I might have expected a wait at the hospital in order to be seen. Leaving my car, I passed a group who had just arrived and who seemed without any coins for the car-park machine. I happened to have some spare pound coins in my pocket and I gave them to one of the group, but they didn’t have any money in exchange. I said it was OK, it was only a few pounds, and I went into the hospital. To my surprise I was in there for less than ten minutes, with the nurse doing a fine job with my wound. Would this have been seen as good karma? This particular incident had a follow-on, in that whilst approaching the car-park pay machine some years later, I was beckoned over to a driver just about to exit the car-park. He gave me his ticket valid for several hours, which saved me having to spend a penny, so perhaps karma does work! However, the few minutes I spent in the hospital on the previous occasion turned into a six hour sojourn (at A and E on the previous day), so swings and roundabouts. But then, it was entirely my own fault for being at the hospital, having fallen from a ladder when, if I had taken the usual care, it would never have happened.
Cassandra
Active Member
One does not need to believe in Karma anymore then gravity. It can be observed. Cause and Effect are deeply part of Nature both in material and the spiritual world. Science is based on the idea that effect are in line with causes. Without it there would be no science. And people in all cultures accept Karma often unconsciously. Sayings like "What goes up must come down", "You get what you give", "He got what was coming to him", "He ran out of Luck", etc all express the idea of Karma. People that reject Karma have a too simple idea of Karma. Like, I do good to you, so you do good to me. That can only lead to disappointment.
What does this have to do with Karma? Why should ruling the world be a result of being righteous? The righteous do not seek power. It is the evil people and demon Gods that seek power over the world (with success). The power they thus achieve is a result of their actions.
People see Karma to much in terms of reward and punishment. That is not Karma. Mother Nature does not reward or punish, it only gives us laws of Nature that govern actions. Whatever we experience is the result of our own actions. Basically that is the base of free will. If we could not influence our fortune and misery there would be no free will. We all know we can. What we need to learn is the right way to go about to get more enduring positive effects. Nature allows for a right path of action, in Eastern religion this is called Dharma or Tao. But the same concepts are present in all Nature religions.
The strive for power over others certainly is the wrong path of action if you seek enduring happiness, but it certainly brings power, no doubt about it. It just does not work out the way you imagined it. It would be strange if evil people did not have power as they are so determined to get it and also heavily use religion to that extend. That would defy Karma. If your actions are geared towards achieving power, you will certainly gain power if you persist.
Karma is best understood as the fruits of your actions. Your actions are the seed, Karma the fruit. People should not confuse Karma with the concept of Judgement of God found in Abrahamism. Abrahamism does not have a good answer why people suffer. The best answer is in book of Job where it is explained that God and the highest servant Satan toy with people to make them suffer. Which is a horrible idea. Just as fatalistic as the the idea that it is all a matter of coincidence or the idea that suffering is actually good for people.
Karma can only be understood in combination with Dharma (right action) and Samsara (rebirth). It explains why some people are born in terrible circumstances or constantly have to suffer, seemingly without reason. This is explained by their actions in past lives. It also explains why some people seem to be lucky all the time. Karma does not make fatalistic, but empowers people, as no matter how bad the circumstances, one can create a better future by starting to live right. Nor does one have to accept suffering one can avoid or alleviate, only the part that can not avoided is fated. In such cases knowledge of Karma helps to accept suffering and how to overcome it.
Understanding Karmamore conscious about the effects of their actions and thus live better.
So the many who don't believe in any gods are included anyway?
Cassandra
Active Member
It is not a matter of believe. Does science say, the Law of Gravity is only for the believers? We have come to accept gravity as a useful way to understand and steer reality around us. In same way the law of Karma helps us steer our actions in more beneficial ways. Dharmic traditions are not based on belief, but like western natural science based on study of Nature (Knowledge).
Gods are not related to Karma. Gods are subject to Karma like all other beings. Gods are phenomena and beings in Nature. You do not have to believe in them either.
That is what differs Dharmic, Natural traditions from Abrahamic religions that are basically belief systems or philosophical frameworks build on a central idea. In this framework everything revolves around a central being, the Abrahamic God, which becomes the base for all the other related concepts. Actions are not judged on their effects on the actor and environment but primarily whether they comply with the Supreme rulers commands. Karma is replaced with Gods approval. Belief becomes fundamental to acting right in this system as what is right is defined by the system, not by nature.
The theory of gravity can be proved. Religious beliefs?
Cassandra
Active Member
There is a lot of misunderstanding of what a theory means and what proof of a theory means in science. People often think science proves abstract notions. No, they only prove that abstract notions can be useful in explaining/predicting the world through relations of abstract notions.
The theory of Gravity does not prove Gravity as such. All we can observe is that things with mass have a tendency to move towards each other. For instance Einstein explains this effect as curbing space-time. Some believe in a force caused by particle exchange. Many see the Higgs field as cause of the effect. Some believe it is an emergent effect. So "the theory of gravity" is a mere description of the movements in relation to mass labeled as gravity.
The same with Karma. We do not observe Karma as a phenomenon directly. We observe that effects are in line with actions. Observation also shows that reality is to some degree probabilistic and that effects of actions build up over time. That is what we observe. And that is what Karma in essence is a label for.
Reincarnation is in essence now proven by DNA. We do live on in our offspring to a mayor degree. So to an important degree we can prove that peoples experiences are based on previous lives. After all, we are reborn in our own offspring as different persons. The way we develop and care for our children comes back to us in later lives as the generations are connected. That is now fact.
But even if hard evidence through direct observation is lacking completely that is no objection for science. We can not prove tectonic plates in anyway directly, but science accepts the concepts as part of the best theory. Does the Theory of tectonic plates demand belief? No, it does not, it simply is an instrument judged by its usefulness. Until a better instrument is found it will be used. And even after that, it still remains useful. Same with our models of the atom with electrons in orbits. It has been surpassed by quantum chemistry, but remains a very useful instrument to understand chemical bonding.
The idea of Karma has been developed in one form or another in many often separate traditions and comes natural. You do not need to convince people that their actions have likewise results (Karma).
And not only can one rely on observation. It is also part of human nature to feel the quality of our actions. Good actions tend to make us feel good, while bad choices tend to make us feel bad, like giving us feelings of doubt, unrest, guilt, remorse, shame. That again comes naturally.
Dharmic traditions are based on knowledge and best practices that people have acquired over many, many generations. Best ways of living to secure happiness. In the same way that animals will learn to adapt to a habitat.
The best proof of Karma is that good people all over the world, also from Abrahamic traditions, live according to its principles even without knowing it as such. Like in the same way people all over the world will handle gravity similarly without having to know the concept.