Do you believe in God?

[Trailblazer]

Bahaullah didn't live that long ago. He, jesus, so have you are hundreds and thousands of years apart. So it sounds like divinity has a time gap because in what era after Bahaullah's death that no one no longer had the ability to hear god's voice?

What's the difference between then and now that people have the "ability" to hear god's voice? I'm sure the 1800s are no different than today, true?

In the 1800s though? That's pretty recent. That's the same era around the civil war here in the States in 1861ish, 7 years (so researched) before Bahaullah was even born.

I don't see how god can talk to people then but not today.

The point I was trying to make is that I do not believe God ever spoke to anyone except His chosen Messengers and Prophets because only they have the capacity to hear God's Voice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The point I was trying to make is that I do not believe God ever spoke to anyone except His chosen Messengers and Prophets because only they have the capacity to hear God's Voice.

That would mean if bahaullah was alive now you would believe he has heard God just the same as he did before?

If someone today met the criteria of the next manifestation, would you trust him?

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know what this god thong can or can't do. Has he told you?

So when he wrote he was asleep on his couch and woken by god. He was really awake. So why not say "I was awake"?

I know because of what Baha'u'llah wrote...

When He said He was asleep that was a metaphor, He did not not mean it literally. He meant he was asleep spiritually, not asleep physically, and then He was awakened by the revelation He received from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

No god has revealed anything to you. Bahaullah revealed everything to you.

Correct.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's failed at getting 1 message out.

No, the message went out and people failed to get the message.

You cannot blame the mailman because you did not go to the mailbox after he delivered the mail.

 

[Trailblazer]

Have you read the fable about the Emperor's New Clothes? That's exactly what the conmen said.

So what? The fact that are con-men does not prove that there are no true Messengers of God...

That is as illogical as saying that the existence of junky cars proves there are no nice new cars.

 

[Trailblazer]

That would mean if bahaullah was alive now you would believe he has heard God just the same as he did before?

Yes, I would believe that.

If someone today met the criteria of the next manifestation, would you trust him?

I do not believe that anyone alive today could be a Manifestation of God because Baha'u'llah wrote that no Manifestations would come for at least 1000 years from when He declared His mission in 1863...

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, I would believe that.

I do not believe that anyone alive today could be a Manifestation of God because Baha'u'llah wrote that no Manifestations would come for at least 1000 years from when He declared His mission in 1863...

“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him. If, however, he persisteth in his error, God will, assuredly, send down one who will deal mercilessly with him. Terrible, indeed, is God in punishing.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 346

I had a conversation with a Christian one time about this. She said that of someone said he was jesus today she wouldn't believe him because it's not in his word. So she believes scripture over the actual person. In scripture it says something like that. They look to the scripture before Christ rather than Christ before scripture.

It's as if the 21st century does not hold truth. I'm surprised people believe God spoke one hundred years ago though. That's one person's life time.

How much can you depend on scripture as criteria if the actual person stood before you and said something different than what was written?

 

[Trailblazer]

I had a conversation with a Christian one time about this. She said that of someone said he was jesus today she wouldn't believe him because it's not in his word. So she believes scripture over the actual person. In scripture it says something like that. They look to the scripture before Christ rather than Christ before scripture.

I would be interested in seeing those verses.

That makes no sense. If Christians all did what you said then no Christian could ever recognize Jesus if He did return as they believe He will return.

How much can you depend on scripture as criteria if the actual person stood before you and said something different than what was written?

I believe that the actual person would have to comport with the scripture in order that I would believe Him.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies so that is one reason I know he is who He claimed to be.

 

[1213]

I was just wondering if there is a God. Do you believe? Or is there a God?

Yes, I believe Bible God exists.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would be interested in seeing those verses.

That makes no sense. If Christians all did what you said then no Christian could ever recognize Jesus if He did return as they believe He will return.

Oh. In context it's saying people are dependent on their traditions and scriptures as if they were the "key" to eternal life. The key to eternal life is in the physical person christ and the laws he spoke of are oral and "presented" in his passion as so said. So, people are more focus on the physical when the bible puts more emphasis on the spirit-ual and abstract.

The physical scriptures don't give eternal life. WHO the scriptures speak of does. That's what that means.

John 5:39 You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me,

38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent. 39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.… (With cross references)

If christians look to christ as the foundation of scriptures rather than scriptures than a foundation of christ, they wouldn't need scripture to have a relationship with christ. Scripture says the relationship was based on faith not on sight. So, if christ came in person here, many christians would search their bible for confirmation rather than listen to the person with whom the scriptures speak of.

I believe that the actual person would have to comport with the scripture in order that I would believe Him.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies so that is one reason I know he is who He claimed to be.

I "would" believe that christ can exist and support what he says without scriptures since his words come from his father. The idea is whatever christ says "his father" says not scripture says.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would be interested in seeing those verses.

That makes no sense. If Christians all did what you said then no Christian could ever recognize Jesus if He did return as they believe He will return.

I believe that the actual person would have to comport with the scripture in order that I would believe Him.

Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies so that is one reason I know he is who He claimed to be.

As for bahaullah's prophecies. I'd have to look that up and cross reference with outside sources and things of that nature. A lot of prophecies are "fill in the blanks" confirmed by confirmation biases. A lot of assumptions and connect the dots but not actual direct connections.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh. In context it's saying people are dependent on their traditions and scriptures as if they were the "key" to eternal life. The key to eternal life is in the physical person christ and the laws he spoke of are oral and "presented" in his passion as so said. So, people are more focus on the physical when the bible puts more emphasis on the spirit-ual and abstract.

The physical scriptures don't give eternal life. WHO the scriptures speak of does. That's what that means.

John 5:39 You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me,

38nor does His word abide in you, because you do not believe the One He sent. 39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.… (With cross references)

If christians look to christ as the foundation of scriptures rather than scriptures than a foundation of christ, they wouldn't need scripture to have a relationship with christ. Scripture says the relationship was based on faith not on sight. So, if christ came in person here, many christians would search their bible for confirmation rather than listen to the person with whom the scriptures speak of.

Thanks for explaining that. I understand that this is the Christian belief, but the danger as I see it is in getting attached to the person of Jesus such that Christians will never see anyone else but Jesus... Yet this is their belief that Jesus is the Only Way so i respect it. It just will never make sense to me because I was a Baha'i from the very beginning of my adult life, so I cannot understand why people cannot accept all religions as being the Truth from God, yet I am sure tat sounds as strange to Christians as what they believe is strange to me.

I do not believe that Jesus wanted anyone to become attached to His person the way Christians have become attached. Jesus always said that His Father was greater than Him and not to worship Him but rather worship the Father.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The reason that Christians gain eternal life by believing in Jesus is because Jesus was the Way to the Father, not because of Jesus the person. Whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life because Jesus is the Way to the Father.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This emotional attachment to the same man Jesus in the same physical body they believe was resurrected from the grave and will return in the clouds makes it impossible for Christians to see anyone else as the return of the Christ Spirit, as Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah was. Of course this is not across the board, because most Western Baha'is were formerly Christians unless they are second or third generation Bahais, which is not that common. So that means that some Christians have accepted Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ and the Messiah.

I "would" believe that christ can exist and support what he says without scriptures since his words come from his father. The idea is whatever christ says "his father" says not scripture says.

I can believe that too, the words of Jesus were the words of the Father, although there would be no way to know what those words were without the scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

As for bahaullah's prophecies. I'd have to look that up and cross reference with outside sources and things of that nature.

I fully agree that is what we need to do, and that ie exactly what William Sears did while writing the book Thief in the Night where he connects all the Bible prophecies to what actually happened on earth before and after Baha'u'llah appeared.

A lot of prophecies are "fill in the blanks" confirmed by confirmation biases. A lot of assumptions and connect the dots but not actual direct connections.

I agree. Many prophecies can have many meanings so people tend to interpret them to suit what they want to believe, what they are expecting to happen. However, some prophecies are so specific that one would be hard pressed not to see that only Baha'u'llah could have fulfilled them, if they knew what He did on His mission.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I fully agree that is what we need to do, and that ie exactly what William Sears did while writing the book Thief in the Night where he connects all the Bible prophecies to what actually happened on earth before and after Baha'u'llah appeared.

I agree. Many prophecies can have many meanings so people tend to interpret them to suit what they want to believe, what they are expecting to happen. However, some prophecies are so specific that one would be hard pressed not to see that only Baha'u'llah could have fulfilled them, if they knew what He did on His mission.

So, there couldn't be any other prophecies that can line up with the ones you believe bahallauh fulfilled?

We can choose to connect the dots based on our beliefs, but it needs to be fact not "conclusions." It makes me wonder if there are other prophecies that overlap with the one bahaullah fulfilled.

That, and another question. Would you still follow bahaullah if he didn't fulfill the prophecies (or even to prove he did not)?

What is your belief based on?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, there couldn't be any other prophecies that can line up with the ones you believe bahallauh fulfilled?

I am not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean prophecies that would be similar but that would contradict the prophecies that I believe that Baha'u'llah fulfilled?

We can choose to connect the dots based on our beliefs, but it needs to be fact not "conclusions." It makes me wonder if there are other prophecies that overlap with the one bahaullah fulfilled.

What do you mean by overlap? Do you mean prophecies that might contradict what Baha'u'llah fulfilled?

That, and another question. Would you still follow bahaullah if he didn't fulfill the prophecies (or even to prove he did not)?

What is your belief based on?

It would definitely call my beliefs into question if Baha'u'llah had not fulfilled the Bible prophecies but I cannot say what I would do because it has not happened. My beliefs are based upon what Baha'u'llah enjoined us to base our beliefs upon -- the evidence that shows that He was a Messenger of God. Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106