Do we really want to be more like Sweden?

[sooda]

I would say he is more of a prophet and a very eloquent one at that.

Oh dear.. Do you really?

 

[PureX]

Most Americans couldn't give you a coherent definition if you asked.

Most Americans couldn't tell you who the vice president is. We are awash in a sea of useless, deliberately distracting, and deceptive information. Our government is for sale to the highest bribe. Our media is for sale to their advertising clients, our churches have sold their souls to their own ignorance and egos, and our businesses have sold out everyone and everything to maximize profits for their investors. Educating and informing the populace isn't even on any of their radar.

 

[sooda]

The "study" directly links nothing to socialism. Please show anything great directly stemming from socialism.

Not using statistics, please show concrete results. With Capitalism, we can show entire networks, systems and all kinds of concrete evidence that it is effective.

Actually is about the ten most prosperous countries.. Did you look at them and what the criteria is?

 

[George-ananda]

Yep. Better not change the currently broken capitalist system because of strawman examples.

Yep, Better assume the current capitalist system is broken from the telling of those who can't show us a better system.

But beyond the snarky stuff, I think the leading edge for first world countries at this time combines socialistic ideals with capitalistic incentives. The right blend is always evolving in each country's unique situation,

 

[Jumi]

Back to "socialist" or should I say capitalist(and socialist?) Sweden. They have more billionaires per capita than the US, they have high GDP per capita (~10% below the US) they have 1/3 of the debt per capita than the US does... the Swedish government spends less per capita on healthcare than the US, much less on military and only slightly more on education, though university education is free. They have higher life expentancy than the US. Swedes have programs to help enterpreneurs get started while still employed which explains why there is so many companies started there. Sounds socialist, right? How do you think Spotify started... right, it was a Swedish startup. And even more socialist: their capital Stockholm is just behind Silicon Valley in producing high tech companies with 1B$ net worth.

 

[Shad]

The problem is that Americans have no idea what socialism is, because the capitalists don't want us to, and they make sure that there is an ocean of misinformation to keep us from ever actually understanding it. Socialism is not the government owning and controlling everything. That's called a totalitarian dictatorship. Socialism is not 'the people' owning and controlling everything and sharing it equally. That's called communism. Also, governments are not economies, and economies are not governments. And lastly, the mistakes some country made 50 years ago are not the mistakes they are making, today, nor do any of these mistakes have to be our mistakes. The idea is not to mimic some other nation's past, or present, but to LEARN FROM WHAT THEY GOT RIGHT. And what they've gotten right is that they have set the well-being of their people above the profits of their wealthy elite, above the desire of their politicians to wield absolute power, and above the innate bigotry of the majority against the minority. And they do this by making sure that the needs of commerce, of social well-being, of the individual, and of governmental control get equal representation in the mechanisms of their governmental process. Which is what we desperately need to learn how to do, here in the U.S.

No government or economic system will ever be perfect. But ours is clearly failing us, and it's getting progressively and exponentially worse. It's failing us because almost none of us are being represented by the people making the decisions that effect our lives, because they are making all those decisions based on their own desires and well-being, and at our expense. We are a society devouring itself with it's own unfettered greed and lust for absolute power. And we are running out of time.

Marx talked about a dictatorship of the workers and Lenin developed ideas of Socialism as the Russians couldn't suddenly convert into a Communist system with global powers around.

 

[Shad]

much less on military and only slightly more on education,

Pointing out a nation that has a tiny population and isn't even a regional power is spending less on the military is not an argument. Sweden provides nothing the US military has for the last half a century. Sweden couldn't fight a war out of a paper bag.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If you don't want to derail the thread then I suggest you do not put forth statements that are incorrect and have to be debunked.
In other words, learn about something before you speak, or in this case write.

Oh, if we were talking about ONLY the Southern combatants of those wars, rather than their entire coalition, then sure, I guess...
Except that I don't think you're taking into account how much assistance the Northern combatants had from their ideological superiors. If the Korean War had been JUST between the two Koreas, with neither UN nor Chinese assistance, it would have been very different. Vietnam, too. Sure, the NVA rolled over the RV very quickly after the American led coalition pulled out... but they did it with Russian supplied equipment and doctrine.

I don't wish to derail the thread, and "what ifs" are always fun, but IMHO, your earlier claim was...well, like I said, we can go with "arguable".

What the **** did I say here you think is incorrect or has been debunked? I don't believe you even read my post.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

 

[Jumi]

Pointing out a nation that has a tiny population and isn't even a regional power is spending less on the military is not an argument.

Still they want Sweden to join NATO.

It was just a short list of things. They spend about 1/3 per person on military compared to the US. I thought the more interesting part should have been how their government spend less % per person on healthcare than the US and they're supposed to be socialist and just a bit more on education though they can provide for all. Nah, they're just much more efficient.

Sweden provides nothing the US military has for the last half a century. Sweden couldn't fight a war out of a paper bag.

Of course, it would be incredibly sad if all that money was spent on military for no achievement.

 

[Jumi]

Marx talked about a dictatorship of the workers

Yes he talked about it, but was it in the way as lots of people would love to imply... there's a nice article on it on the wiki Dictatorship of the proletariat - Wikipedia

Not quite what some people want to see. Either "Marxist" or "anti-Marxist"

 

[Shad]

Still they want Sweden to join NATO.

Yes as between Denmark, Norway, Germany and Sweden the Kattegat and Skagerrak strait can be closed. Sweden isn't being asked to join because of it's military

It was just a short list of things. They spend about 1/3 per person on military compared to the US.

So? A better military cost more money.

I thought the more interesting part should have been how their government spend less % per person on healthcare than the US and they're supposed to be socialist and just a bit more on education though they can provide for all. Nah, they're just much more efficient.

The US system is burdened by a lot of regulations.

Of course, it would be incredibly sad if all that money was spent on military for no achievement.

Europe isn't speaking Russian from Moscow to Paris so there is that. What did Sweden do? Sold material to the Nazis and declared neutrality

 

[Shad]

Yes he talked about it, but was it in the way as lots of people would love to imply... there's a nice article on it on the wiki Dictatorship of the proletariat - Wikipedia

Not quite what some people want to see. Either "Marxist" or "anti-Marxist"

That is how the system he created turned out. They made the central government based on the ideal

 

[Jumi]

Yes as between Denmark, Norway, Germany and Sweden the Kattegat and Skagerrak strait can be closed. Sweden isn't being asked to join because of it's military

Obvious.

So? A better military cost more money.

Then why isn't the US close to Sweden's level in basic healthcare or basic education?

The US system is burdened by a lot of regulations.

Sweden isn't?

Europe isn't speaking Russian from Moscow to Paris so there is that.

I know the political talking point, in my country it is used constantly when military needs anything. The US didn't help my country against the Soviets you know. The Swedes were helping, more or less covertly against both SU and later, the Nazis. You just don't get to hear about it.

 

[Jumi]

That is how the system he created turned out. They made the central government based on the ideal

We know it turned that way, but it would be false to say it's what Marx talked about.

 

[Jumi]

We also know Marx was wanting everyone to bear arms. So people talking about Marxism as if it's against arming the populace is also quite weak.

 

[Shad]

We know it turned that way, but it would be false to say it's what Marx talked about.

That is because Marx didn't create plans for his fiction. So when people try to create his fiction as a reality they fail again and again over and over

 

[Shad]

Then why isn't the US close to Sweden's level in basic healthcare or basic education?

Regulations are a burden. For example you can not buy insurance across state lines. Toss in Americas are one of the most unhealthy populations that isn't in the 3rd world

Sweden isn't?

Not at the same level.

IThe US didn't help my country against the Soviets you know.

When? In the Winter War when the US was neutral? The 44 bombing when Sweden stayed out of the war? Which time are you referring to? Was it when Sweden was letting Nazi use their trains for transportation for Operation Barbarossa? Which time did Sweden need help from a situation it willing joined?

The Swedes were helping, more or less covertly against both SU and later, the Nazis. You just don't get to hear about it.

Sure. All while doing it under the protection of neutrality. They also joined the SS helping them with genocide.

 

[Stevicus]

When? In the Winter War when the US was neutral? The 44 bombing when Sweden stayed out of the war? Which time are you referring to? Was it when Sweden was letting Nazi use their trains for transportation for Operation Barbarossa? Which time did Sweden need help from a situation it willing joined?

I think Jumi was referring to Finland's war against the USSR, and he's correct: The U.S. didn't help Finland during that war. As you point out, the US was neutral at the time of the Winter War. By the time the US entered the war, the Soviet Union was already on the Allied side, and Finland and the Axis were allies of convenience. So, we obviously weren't going to help Finland then.

Sure. All while doing it under the protection of neutrality. They also joined the SS helping them with genocide.

Sweden did do some good things. I recall that most of Denmark's Jews were able to safely reach asylum in Sweden. And then there were the actions of Raoul Wallenberg. Like most of Europe at the time, they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. There wasn't much they could do. Sure, they could have declared war, but they would quickly fall, and another country's resources would be in Hitler's hands. It probably wouldn't have made much of a difference either way.

 

[Shad]

View attachment 27355

Federalism isn't socialism.