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Do We Really Need This Kind of Bigotry?

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s2a

Heretic and part-time (skinny) Santa impersonator
From Reuters today:

RISHON LEZION, Israel, Aug 17 (Reuters) - Israeli police on Sunday blocked more than 200 far-right Israeli protesters from rushing guests at a wedding of a Jewish woman and Muslim man as they shouted "death to the Arabs" in a sign of tensions stoked by the Gaza war.

Several dozen police, including members of the force's most elite units, formed human chains to keep the protesters from the wedding hall's gates and chased after many who defied them. Four protesters were arrested, and there were no injuries...

Protesters, many of them young men wearing black shirts, denounced Malka, who was born Jewish and converted to Islam before the wedding, as a "traitor against the Jewish state," and shouted epithets of hatred towards Arabs including "death to the Arabs." They sang a song that urges, "May your village burn down."

A few dozen left-wing Israelis held a counter-protest nearby holding flowers, balloons and a sign that read: "Love conquers all."

Israeli President Reuven Rivlin, sworn in last month to succeed Shimon Peres, criticized the protest as a "cause for outrage and concern" in a message on his Facebook page.

"Such expressions undermine the basis of our coexistence here, in Israel, a country that is both Jewish and democratic," Rivlin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing Likud bloc, said
... -- Wedding Of Jew, Muslim Draws Hundreds Of Protesters

To me, as one whom also has a mixed marriage, the protesters I believe are acting in a terribly disgusting manner.

Put bluntly (albeit from afar), I don't care.

Ya'll have had nearly seventeen centuries to work things out. Think about that. Over a dozen centuries, and still counting.

I'm so sick and exhausted by both "sides' and their petty squabbles over dirt and sand in a desert no one wants, or exhibits anything of value.

A pox on both houses.

I'm done with you both. Either settle matters once and for all, or please just shut up.

There is no other circumstance on the PLANET that has maintained such unrelenting animus and hate for centuries unending. Make peace. Period.

Geez.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Hey, I know the answer to this one!

It is about having been raised as a member of the Jewish People, or else voluntarily earned one's own place among them despite that.

I have learned to think of them as an extended family of unusually big size.

Levite's opposition to mixed marriages is not racist, or at least I do not perceive it as such. He seems to be very willing to accept people of any background or ethnic origin into the ranks of those he calls faith brothers... as long as they convert into Judaism.

Having been on occasion expected to act and speak as if I were a believer in faiths I never dreamed of joining, I can't help but approve.

Besides, and this is a very significant fact, for all that he is indeed fiercely opposed to mixed marriages (defined as those between a member of the Jewish People and someone who has not chosen to become one), he does not presume to make them punishable or anything. Ultimately, he just disapproves of them.

That might be tribalist by some understandings of the word, but I can't in good faith call it bigoted or prejudiced, much less racist or hateful.

You keep telling yourself that, Luis. Yeah, there's nothing bigoted or hateful about treating your ethnicity as an exclusive club, as if there's anything different about a Jew saying that a white person saying that. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Oh, okay...Excuse me...Levite had said something bigoted but he is definitely not a bigot.

Besides, does one, single comment make someone a bigot? That strikes me as a Puritanical standard. That's a genuine question for you. I would be interested in your answer, although I won't argue it with you.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I would like to know, how is being opposed to intermarriage not bigoted?

By allowing / insisting on having the non-Jewish spouse choosing to convert into Judaism before marriage, and by falling short of actually giving oneself the right to stop a couple who wants to marry despite disapproval the power to stop them.

Ultimately, Levite recognizes that it is a decision that falls to the couple itself. He just won't support or encourage it unless there is conversion first.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Besides, does one, single comment make someone a bigot? That strikes me as a Puritanical standard. That's a genuine question for you. I would be interested in your answer, although I won't argue it with you.

If that one comment is a bigoted comment, yes.

Like Cynthia, I'd like to know how opposing intermarriage isn't bigoted. Luis tried to explain it and he failed.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You keep telling yourself that, Luis. Yeah, there's nothing bigoted or hateful about treating your ethnicity as an exclusive club, as if there's anything different about a Jew saying that a white person saying that. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Frank, I know Levite well enough now to know that ethnicity does not factor into it. In fact, it takes some creativity to even attempt to believe that "Jewishness" is about ethnicity, even disregarding Levite's personal stance.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
If that one comment is a bigoted comment, yes.

Like Cynthia, I'd like to know how opposing intermarriage isn't bigoted. Luis tried to explain it and he failed.

I may have failed to convince the two of you, I suppose.

We have already gone through this once, as I recall. But I like this subject, so let's go through it once more.

I just realized that there is a hypothetical scenario that might better illustrate the point.

Let's assume for argument's sake that a Jewish person falls in love with a non-Jewish person and they decide to marry. Let's further assume that they agree to apply for full communion into the Jewish People, which is to say, the non-Jewish person decides to attempt conversion to Judaism - and yes, that does in practice mean leaving behind their former religion, if any.

That, to the best of my enthusiastic but doubtlessly external and tentative knowledge, means above all learning about Jewish history, tradition and ways. Jewish unity, I have come to conclude, is actually not very tied to unity of belief at all, but rather to knowledge.

Jewish People can hardly be expected to hold the same beliefs - and if you don't agree, go take a look at the Judaism DIR for a while then come back to me - but they do show a remarkable level of mutual understanding. They use much the same (somewhat exclusive) language and they can actually disagree with each other as opposed to simply failing to understand each other.

Conversion, I'm personally convinced, is above all a matter of showing solid evidence that one is well aware of the Jewish ways and willing to take part on them, to the point of convincing others that you are worth of being taken into the family. And I do mean family, with no quotation marks, for I truly believe that is what they mean. To the best of my understanding, it is conversion itself, and not even the marriage, that makes one a member of the Jewish family.

What is most interesting is that conversion is indeed a commitment for life, which is why it must be optional for both sides. The convertee must want to become a Jewish person and show some degree of commitment and effort towards that goal, and the Jewish community, including but most certainly not limited to at least one Rabbi (not necessarily Orthodox or even Conservative) must also be willing to accept and support the intent to convert. In short, both sides must trust and accept each other.

That might well look like prejudice at first glance, but it is actually rather commited and inclusive. It is just realistic in allowing for the very real and human need to establish a relationship of trust, respect and commitment before permanent acceptance is promised.

Now, most revealing of all, that commitment is taken very seriously and is not opportunistic. That translates into Jewish people remaining Jewish People even if they explicitly let go of Judaism to become Atheists, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims or whatever - within reasonable limits, I must assume. Someone who makes a point of saying out aloud that he does not want to be considered a member of the Jewish People will probably succeed in being accepted as such. But it is not automatic, and it is not a decision taken lightly. They are not pretending to care, but rather deciding to care about their own.

You may decide that you find that bigoted, but I sure do not aggree.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Frank, I know Levite well enough now to know that ethnicity does not factor into it. In fact, it takes some creativity to even attempt to believe that "Jewishness" is about ethnicity, even disregarding Levite's personal stance.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Jewishness isn't a religion and a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism is still a Jew, and then claim that it's not an ethnicity. Make up your mind.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
By allowing / insisting on having the non-Jewish spouse choosing to convert into Judaism before marriage, and by falling short of actually giving oneself the right to stop a couple who wants to marry despite disapproval the power to stop them.

Ultimately, Levite recognizes that it is a decision that falls to the couple itself. He just won't support or encourage it unless there is conversion first.

She did convert. So tell me how it's an intermarriage?

I do have a horse in this race because I am in an "intermarriage" and my youngest is Asian and Latina.

And what is "intermarriage"? Unless you marry something other than human like a wall or another species then there is no such thing.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I wish the couple all the luck and that God is with them. Dealing with that sort of primitive hated is a horrible thing to go through. It's similar to the Deep South in the '50s and the vile protestors and rabbis use rhetoric similar to that the KKK used to decry "miscegenation". Simply outrageous. Humans can be so backward at times. Not only was the crowd viciously racist, but the bride's father is a racist, too! I hope they are able to persevere or even move to a place that isn't so backwards.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Jewishness isn't a religion and a Jew who doesn't practice Judaism is still a Jew, and then claim that it's not an ethnicity. Make up your mind.

Please read the expansion to post #27 that I just posted, then come back to me to say whether you still think I have to make up my mind.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
She did convert. So tell me how it's an intermarriage?

Because Malka will resume being a member of the Jewish People, even if also a Muslim, unless she makes a serious effort to no longer be recognized as such.

I suppose that may not be an intermarriage from a Muslim perspective, but it is from a Jewish one.

Unless, of course, her husband decides at some point to convert into Judaism himself. That might hypothetically lead to a curious yet (far as I can tell) legitimate situation where both are Jewish People despite her technically no longer holding Jewish beliefs. Her husband might conceivably become a Jew in better standing then herself, although I must assume that is a very unlikely scenarion and that she will be often encouraged to revert to Judaism. It is reasonable to assume that such a scenario might be difficult for the marriage proper, although one would have to be there to truly know.


I do have a horse in this race because I am in an "intermarriage" and my youngest is Asian and Latina.

Congratulations. Intermarriages are a great thing. :)

I just don't expect either of you to be acknowledged as Jewish People unless you have been raised as such or chosen to convert into the Faith. I trust you don't expect any differently either.


And what is "intermarriage"? Unless you marry something other than human like a wall or another species then there is no such thing.

You seemed to have a good working guess just a sentence ago, but I will indulge your question; an intermarriage is a marriage between people of perceived mixed backgrounds, origins or beliefs.

That is of course at least somewhat arbitrary, and only meaningful to the extent that the differences themselves are perceived as significant.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I wish the couple all the luck and that God is with them. Dealing with that sort of primitive hated is a horrible thing to go through. It's similar to the Deep South in the '50s and the vile protestors and rabbis use rhetoric similar to that the KKK used to decry "miscegenation". Simply outrageous. Humans can be so backward at times. Not only was the crowd viciously racist, but the bride's father is a racist, too! I hope they are able to persevere or even move to a place that isn't so backwards.

No argument from me. However, how did you learn about the bride's father? From somewhere outside this thread, I assume?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Please read the expansion to post #27 that I just posted, then come back to me to say whether you still think I have to make up my mind.

I read it. It's still tribalist and bigoted. Israel's marriage laws are also bigoted: Marriage Information | Embassy of the United States

I'm not going to agree with you. I'm mixed black/white and I've experienced a lot of issues with racists because of that, even within my family. I also have a half-Jewish brother. My mom was never accepted by her Jewish in-laws because she is a Gentile. She was not even allowed to wear her cross when she was with them because they hated Christians. It is disgusting and infuriating that people still hold such archaic and illogical beliefs. Such beliefs have done harm within my own family. I'm totally against any sort of racism, ethno-centrism and tribalism. Judaism, at least more conservative forms of, seems to celebrate and uphold those despicable mindsets and so I am not a fan of Judaism (although I would marry a Jew if I fell in love with one and I wouldn't demand that they convert!). I have seen Jews use panic-filled rhetoric about how they need to only marry "their own" lest they disappear or whatever. Racists of all sorts of have used the same rhetoric. It's backwards, harmful nonsense and I'm not going to excuse it. It's wrong when a white person does it, it's wrong when a black person does it, it's wrong when a Latino person does it, it's wrong when an Asian person does it and it's wrong when a Jewish person does it! This just causes divisions and violence among human beings.

That group that is protesting are a bunch of racist extremists: Lehava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I read it. It's still tribalist and bigoted.

I will agree with "tribalist".



Fair enough. I must agree with you, having read that page now.


I'm not going to agree with you. I'm mixed black/white and I've experienced a lot of issues with racists because of that, even within my family. I also have a half-Jewish brother. My mom was never accepted by her Jewish in-laws because she is a Gentile. She was not even allowed to wear her cross when she was with them because they hated Christians. It is disgusting and infuriating that people still hold such archaic and illogical beliefs.

Yes it is. I'm sorry that happened.


Such beliefs have done harm within my own family. I'm totally against any sort of racism, ethno-centrism and tribalism. Judaism, at least more conservative forms of, seems to celebrate and uphold those despicable mindsets and so I am not a fan of Judaism (although I would marry a Jew if I fell in love with one and I wouldn't demand that they convert!). I have seen Jews use panic-filled rhetoric about how they need to only marry "their own" lest they disappear or whatever. Racists of all sorts of have used the same rhetoric. It's backwards, harmful nonsense and I'm not going to excuse it. It's wrong when a white person does it, it's wrong when a black person does it, it's wrong when a Latino person does it, it's when when an Asian person does it and it's wrong when a Jewish person does it! This just causes divisions and violence among human beings.

That group that is protesting are a bunch of racist extremists: Lehava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No argument from me. It is a terrible thing that all that happened. I do stand by what I said a few posts ago, but that in no way excuses such discrimination.
 

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
I will agree with "tribalist".




Fair enough. I must agree with you, having read that page now.




Yes it is. I'm sorry that happened.




No argument from me. It is a terrible thing that all that happened. I do stand by what I said a few posts ago, but that in no way excuses such discrimination.

I thought ethnic concerns weren't important to you Luis, now they are important? Please tell us why.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I thought ethnic concerns weren't important to you Luis,

You thought correctly. They are not.


now they are important?

No, they still are not. Nothing changed.


Please tell us why.


Because you misunderstood me?

I am all but impervious to ethnic concerns.

What is leading you to think otherwise?



Are you implying that I have to think that ethnies are a big deal in order to oppose racism or bigotry?

It seems to me that on the contrary, I would have to care about ethnic matters in order to be a racist or race-motivated bigot.
 
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