Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?
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The truth always appears paradoxical to us. That's why I don't generally agree with western religions that insist that truth can't be self-contradictory, or relative. I think paradox and relativism are what truth looks like to our limited human consciousness.I agree PureX, but I think M_V sees it differently, whereby we must become aware and then move towards synchronicity if you will... I've read some of his posts before where he says that man has moved away from Tao, and I agree, but if that is man's place then that is also Tao.
There is nothing to "achieve."In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?
For the joy of it?Nothing to achieve? Then why live?
For the peace it brings?Why meditate?
For the adventure of life, and love?Why get up in the morning.
Does it really matter?THis reminds me of the zen koan... "Who are you?"
I said that to my Zen master once, she said... "close." I still haven't gotten it right supposedly.Do not worry "I am" this or that, just be.....
Then I have to achieve joy.PureX said:For the joy of it?
Than meditation is used to "achieve" peace.PureX said:For the peace it brings?
Than I have to achieve the adventure of life, and love.PureX said:For the adventure of life, and love?
Can we answer a question with a question? OF COURSE! :yes:PureX said:Does it really matter?
Joy is what we feel when we stop trying to have fun. Peace is what we feel when we stop trying to define and manipulate our environment. Love is what we feel when we stop trying to own and correct the people and things around us, and the adventure of life is what we have when we stop trying to control the flow of our own existence. These things are not the result of effort, or of "achievement". They are our natural state once we stop trying to define and control and possess.I said that to my Zen master once, she said... "close." I still haven't gotten it right supposedly.
Then I have to achieve joy.
Than meditation is used to "achieve" peace.
Than I have to achieve the adventure of life, and love.
Can we answer a question with a question? OF COURSE! :yes:
Even is "achievement" is a dropping of ego, an awareness, a final understanding, a realization, a "just be". It is still a state in which I was not in before.
Stopping something, dropping something, quieting something, etc... Is in itself a form of "achievement". Whether or not we use the word "achievement" or not. It is a state in which I was not in before.They are our natural state once we stop trying to define and control and possess.
So to achieve the state of quieting to where I understand that the quieting is not an achievement. MAN I LOVE CIRCULAR PHILOSOPHY!Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.
And what an awesome achievement that will be. We can go on forever.Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.
And what an awesome achievement that will be. We can go on forever.
In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?
But the tao always appears as paradox, to us (yin/yang). You're trying to work out that which can't be worked out by the human mind, because we exist within the tao. We are subjects of the paradox (yin/yang). All that can be done from our perspective is to humble ourselves before the divine mystery, or fight with it in ignorance. Either way, we remain subjects of the paradox. Either way, we play our part in the flow of existence. The only difference is that when we live humbly and in accord with the flow of being that surrounds and envelops us, we can find joy and peace in that experience. But if we live always at war with that flow, trying to wring out of it our own desires and our own righteousness, then we will likely end up frustrated and exhausted.I do apologize if anyone actually thought I believed in achievement. But arguing against the definition of a word by using the definition outright is simply counterproductive in my opinion. In the end, if the ego tries to let go of the ego, it will NEVER be done.
My original idea when starting this thread (I think I remember..., it was a while ago), was to spur some actual thought about our place in this "thing" called the universe. When a stream (you all should know how much I love the proverbial stream) flows, does it just happen? Or is it helped?
I am a firm believer that I cannot "do" anything, but given the circumstances; things can happen that are somehow connected with my odd presence in this universe, making me think that I "did" something. Flowers only grow where they can be supported, a stream only flows where the environment is suited for it. However... what is the suited environment for oneness? Every environment? If this were true everyone would be enlightened? For naturally we as natural beings would follow the suited environment naturally. But some environments seem more attached to our ego and are more hindering.
So in the end, we have to ask ourself... do I control anything? If not, than I can't "do" anything on my own; "Achieve anything on my own; "Be" anything on my own; and least of all drop my ego on my own. But if I do control something, than that implies ego. Uhoh, I'm back to the beginning again.