Do we need help?

[Master Vigil]

In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?

 

[ChrisP]

Hey M_V, peace and good wishes to you.

The Tao te Ching itself is probably the only guiding hand we need. Whether or not we need help to see it then the answer is very individual, and hinges solely on how each person wishes to practise their beliefs.

I think a little help can be useful, more in a "sounding board" sort of sense. You yourself were very useful for that when I joined this board back in the day.

There are a lot of concepts that are not easily explained or verbalised within the core of understanding Tao. Some will come to Tao through their own understanding, some will need a guiding hand. If each of us listens and is mindful then those chances to help people won't really seem like help, just answering a thoughtful question (just leave the Chuang Tzu out... my head spins sometimes).

Such experience can only benefit the listener as much as the questioner. (at least that's my experience).

So go on ask away ladies and gentlemen and let's share in our spiritual growth and understanding.

 

[PureX]

We are always "at one with the tao", really, whether we are aware of it or not, as it's part of the tao of mankind to be ignorant and selfish, and to imagine that we are an independant force unto ourselves even when we aren't. So we don't need to be "saved" or to achieve anything. When taoism refers to becoming one with the tao, or embodying the tao, it really only refers to our awareness of being a part of the tao.

The word "tao" refers to the flow of existence. And we are always a part of that flow, whether we are aware of this or not, and even whether we are struggling against that flow in pursuit of some self-centered desire, or not. The practice of taoism is simply the practice of a spontaneous awareness of our being within this flow, and of our living with it instead of pointlessly struggling against it.

 

[ChrisP]

I agree PureX, but I think M_V sees it differently, whereby we must become aware and then move towards synchronicity if you will... I've read some of his posts before where he says that man has moved away from Tao, and I agree, but if that is man's place then that is also Tao.

 

[PureX]

I agree PureX, but I think M_V sees it differently, whereby we must become aware and then move towards synchronicity if you will... I've read some of his posts before where he says that man has moved away from Tao, and I agree, but if that is man's place then that is also Tao.

The truth always appears paradoxical to us. That's why I don't generally agree with western religions that insist that truth can't be self-contradictory, or relative. I think paradox and relativism are what truth looks like to our limited human consciousness.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?

There is nothing to "achieve."

 

[wizanda]

In Taoism, let the carpenter be the judge of that....the small scroll in Revelation chapter 10 (fulfilled 2 years before reading it) is the DAO Te-Ching, as it is Oneness principles....
Which are sweet to the taste as it is poetry, yet bitter in stomach, as if we used Dao globally in politics, life would be better.

 

[Master Vigil]

So we don't need help. That would make it seem that I know everything. And I don't find that very humble. Even if I can do it myself. Something, somewhere, however minute will help.

Nothing to achieve? Then why live? Why meditate? Why get up in the morning. THis reminds me of the zen koan... "Who are you?"

 

[wizanda]

Do not worry "I am" this or that, just be.....

 

[PureX]

Nothing to achieve? Then why live?

For the joy of it?

Why meditate?

For the peace it brings?

Why get up in the morning.

For the adventure of life, and love?

THis reminds me of the zen koan... "Who are you?"

Does it really matter?

 

[Master Vigil]

Do not worry "I am" this or that, just be.....

I said that to my Zen master once, she said... "close." I still haven't gotten it right supposedly.

For the joy of it?

Then I have to achieve joy.

For the peace it brings?

Than meditation is used to "achieve" peace.

For the adventure of life, and love?

Than I have to achieve the adventure of life, and love.

Does it really matter?

Can we answer a question with a question? OF COURSE! :yes:

Even is "achievement" is a dropping of ego, an awareness, a final understanding, a realization, a "just be". It is still a state in which I was not in before.

 

[PureX]

I said that to my Zen master once, she said... "close." I still haven't gotten it right supposedly.

Then I have to achieve joy.
Than meditation is used to "achieve" peace.
Than I have to achieve the adventure of life, and love.
Can we answer a question with a question? OF COURSE! :yes:

Even is "achievement" is a dropping of ego, an awareness, a final understanding, a realization, a "just be". It is still a state in which I was not in before.

Joy is what we feel when we stop trying to have fun. Peace is what we feel when we stop trying to define and manipulate our environment. Love is what we feel when we stop trying to own and correct the people and things around us, and the adventure of life is what we have when we stop trying to control the flow of our own existence. These things are not the result of effort, or of "achievement". They are our natural state once we stop trying to define and control and possess.

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

 

[Master Vigil]

They are our natural state once we stop trying to define and control and possess.

Stopping something, dropping something, quieting something, etc... Is in itself a form of "achievement". Whether or not we use the word "achievement" or not. It is a state in which I was not in before.

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

So to achieve the state of quieting to where I understand that the quieting is not an achievement. MAN I LOVE CIRCULAR PHILOSOPHY!

When I look at the Grand Canyon. The river did not care about it's direction, force, speed, etc... It didn't care about where it was going, what it was doing, etc... But what an achievement! Whether or not our path is linear, circular, diagonal, or whatever. It is still a path. One minute step along whatever path I walk, or float, or whatever... is an awesome achievement.

 

[PureX]

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

 

[Master Vigil]

Once the ego is quieted, the idea that quieting it is an "achievement" will have vanished.

And what an awesome achievement that will be. We can go on forever.

 

[Buttons*]

And what an awesome achievement that will be. We can go on forever.

You can continue pushing your point of "achieving" whatever and remain puzzled. You can also not look at life as a series of achievements, because there is no point to achieve anything. We all end up as worm food. I don't really even need to tell you this.

I believe it's Socrates, "all I know is that I know nothing."

That is the thought that keeps me humble when I really listen to my heart. Not only does it thwart the ego for you- I believe it to be true of everyone! At least, it's enlightening to ponder.

In any case, with your circular reasoning, I could say that taking a poo this morning was an achievement... but it wasn't. (Perhaps making it to the toilet was, though. ) That would be an absurd statement. The truth is, a bowel movement is something my body does on its own, unaided.

So is being.

 

[Buttons*]

In christianity, the idea of humans being unable to reach salvation on our own is very prevelant. In Taoism are we able to achieve One with Tao on our own, or do we need help? And if we do, what will help us?

I think it varies on an individual level, but ultimately, everyone takes the journey alone - even though we all take it together. It's almost cruely ironic. (If anyone has a problem with my use of ironic, shove it )

Here's, wots, uh, the deal: If you think you need help, then get some, if you want to understand it on your own, then do it! It really does depend on the person and their level of understanding. Personally, I need to think about something and then discuss it. It allows me to bounce ideas and gain perspective.

Other people I know believe that just meditating for a while is really all the clarity you need.

What do you think helps you? Do you feel like you need help?

 

[Random]

I believe a human being can be fully empowered to attend to his or her own salvation if they know what it is that they need to be saved from. Not otherwise (obviously...)

 

[Master Vigil]

I do apologize if anyone actually thought I believed in achievement. But arguing against the definition of a word by using the definition outright is simply counterproductive in my opinion. In the end, if the ego tries to let go of the ego, it will NEVER be done.

My original idea when starting this thread (I think I remember..., it was a while ago), was to spur some actual thought about our place in this "thing" called the universe. When a stream (you all should know how much I love the proverbial stream) flows, does it just happen? Or is it helped?

I am a firm believer that I cannot "do" anything, but given the circumstances; things can happen that are somehow connected with my odd presence in this universe, making me think that I "did" something. Flowers only grow where they can be supported, a stream only flows where the environment is suited for it. However... what is the suited environment for oneness? Every environment? If this were true everyone would be enlightened? For naturally we as natural beings would follow the suited environment naturally. But some environments seem more attached to our ego and are more hindering.

So in the end, we have to ask ourself... do I control anything? If not, than I can't "do" anything on my own; "Achieve anything on my own; "Be" anything on my own; and least of all drop my ego on my own. But if I do control something, than that implies ego. Uhoh, I'm back to the beginning again.

 

[PureX]

I do apologize if anyone actually thought I believed in achievement. But arguing against the definition of a word by using the definition outright is simply counterproductive in my opinion. In the end, if the ego tries to let go of the ego, it will NEVER be done.

My original idea when starting this thread (I think I remember..., it was a while ago), was to spur some actual thought about our place in this "thing" called the universe. When a stream (you all should know how much I love the proverbial stream) flows, does it just happen? Or is it helped?

I am a firm believer that I cannot "do" anything, but given the circumstances; things can happen that are somehow connected with my odd presence in this universe, making me think that I "did" something. Flowers only grow where they can be supported, a stream only flows where the environment is suited for it. However... what is the suited environment for oneness? Every environment? If this were true everyone would be enlightened? For naturally we as natural beings would follow the suited environment naturally. But some environments seem more attached to our ego and are more hindering.

So in the end, we have to ask ourself... do I control anything? If not, than I can't "do" anything on my own; "Achieve anything on my own; "Be" anything on my own; and least of all drop my ego on my own. But if I do control something, than that implies ego. Uhoh, I'm back to the beginning again.

But the tao always appears as paradox, to us (yin/yang). You're trying to work out that which can't be worked out by the human mind, because we exist within the tao. We are subjects of the paradox (yin/yang). All that can be done from our perspective is to humble ourselves before the divine mystery, or fight with it in ignorance. Either way, we remain subjects of the paradox. Either way, we play our part in the flow of existence. The only difference is that when we live humbly and in accord with the flow of being that surrounds and envelops us, we can find joy and peace in that experience. But if we live always at war with that flow, trying to wring out of it our own desires and our own righteousness, then we will likely end up frustrated and exhausted.