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Featured Do we need forgiveness?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Dec 2, 2020.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Got this from my reply on another thread:

    If someone rejects the christian god (christ), are they rejecting forgiveness?

    Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?

    Is the need for forgiveness inherent in people (in the christian view) that they are called to ask for forgiveness? Why?

    Take the motivate as ye will; just curious.
     
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  2. Hellbound Serpiente

    Hellbound Serpiente Active Member

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    Considering human beings are bound to inherently flawed, imperfect nature and brain, I think we do need forgiveness for mistakes are bound to happen due to this. Not sure which God, though. Whether it is Christian God and/or some other God, I do feel we need a power superior to us to make up for our short-comings.
     
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  3. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I think forgiveness in innately needed in all people. When you have done wrong and you hurt someone you love... the words "I forgive you" has such a great impact. (At least when I hear it from my wife to me :D )

    Certainly I have hurt people without realizing it and didn't know I needed forgiveness (until I was informed). So, again, restoring a relationship through forgiveness is life giving.

    Rejecting God's forgiveness doesn't mean that He withdraws His forgiveness. Many times we know we have done wrong (to God--whichever God you serve) and in other cases we didn't know we had done wrong until we are informed.

    Forgiveness is simply restoring a relationship.

    Unforgiveness, IMV, is a cancer that eats the host that has it.
     
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  4. Salty Booger

    Salty Booger Royal Crown Cola (RC)

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    I believe a lot of people walk around holding a lot of personal pain. Christ was God's Gift to relieve that burden. It's an individual choice to accept it by believing it is true. This is my understanding of Christianity in a nutshell. I believe forgiving yourself and others is the Christian path, one that I see no harm.
     
  5. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ānanda
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    I haven’t been a saint my whole life. For things I’ve done that I’m not proud of, I’ve forgiven myself. Have others? Some perhaps. For those that have not, that’s their burden, not mine.
     
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  6. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    That's what I believe is the most important type of forgiveness, honestly. Forgiving yourself. Regret is mostly pointless. Use it only to learn, never to build your life around.
     
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  7. The Hammer

    The Hammer Virtue, Piety, Study
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    I don't think Forgiveness is a value that Christianity has a monopoly on. But I have found that instead of seeking out others for forgiveness it is better to learn to forgive yourself.
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I find that odd. Do you think those who do not have this need is missing something?
     
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  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    I think the Apostle Paul felt a need to be forgiven and perhaps that influenced his theology.
     
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    True. It kinda falters when its assumed others need forgiveness from christ because the christian needs it. I don't believe that's what forgiveness is about. Maybe more humbleness in where people are at and accept that people know what's good for themselves whether it be christ or not.
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Would you feel the same if someone else offered to forgive you or is important to forgive oneself only?
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Do you believe we need forgiveness-there is an inherent need for someone to forgive us if we have wrong them?

    Almost like if I stepped on your toe and instead of making amends saying I'm sorry, I'm waiting for you to forgive me for my "sin."

    That, I don't understand (or am I off with the words). I'd say if you did wrong to someone else, you'd mend the relationship by apologizing. It would be nice to receive forgiveness from the other person, but in my opinion, we can't depend on others to do what we feel they should do. Too much expectations.

    Instead of asking forgiveness, would it be best to apologize to god without expecting forgiveness in return?

    The expectation of forgiveness seems to invalidate the "grace" or charity given to you. Just as expecting a homeless person to use what's given to him for food and withdrawing the same charity if he (you assume) spends it for something else.

    Do you believe intentions and expectations invalidate accepting other people's forgiveness?

    Forgiving others, I agree. Expecting to be forgiven, I disagree.
     
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  13. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Yeah, the presumption of having done something wrong.

    I think for me, the choices I made through life were the best I could have made at the time. I couldn't really have made a different choice. So why should I feel guilty for something I could not have done differently?

    Whatever choice I made I felt justified at the time of making it. Looking back though, sure I could have made better choices but hindsight includes a lot of information that wasn't available at the time like the actual consequences of those actions.
     
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  14. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ānanda
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    I think both are equally important. Their forgiving me is for them. My forgiving me is for me.
     
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  15. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I don't need forgiveness. I would like to be punished for my sins if I commit them. If I am forgiven, that will not be a good example and unfair to the person against whom I have sinned.
    And who is God? What is his station between someone I have sinned against and me? It is like a cat between two monkeys.
     
    #15 Aupmanyav, Dec 2, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2020
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  16. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Do you expect their forgiveness?
     
  17. SigurdReginson

    SigurdReginson Well-Known Member

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    Eh... There are good and positive aspects to the Christian world view, but there are some negative sides to them as well.

    Second chances can be a good thing, but they can also be a bad thing, too. Having been raised a Christian, one of the main focuses in life I had was to forgive people when they wronged me; it's a central aspect to the Christian walk. Sometimes it worked out alright, but sometimes people can be selfish jerks who want to take advantage of you, and sometimes I would just end up enabling folks.

    I've always heard "Forgive, but don't forget," but can't say I find that to be such a good way to think anymore. I guess I've come to the point where I will forgive someone if they actually acknowledge and care about what happened, but those chances are limited, and the scope of that forgiveness is also limited. I feel one has to take into account their own self respect. There's being kind, and then there's being a doormat. Being quick to forgive isn't such a good thing.
     
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  18. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ānanda
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    No.
     
  19. Hellbound Serpiente

    Hellbound Serpiente Active Member

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    I think so. Let's take an example of some of the most unrepentant butchers in history to elaborate my point. Let's take Carl Panzram. Now, those who read about the guy knows that [according to historians] he didn't any forgiveness for all the horrible things he did [to say the least]. Is this guy missing something? He sure as hell is. He is missing many things that separates sensible human beings from savage animals.

    Now, many of those who don't need any forgiveness may not be on the same league as Carl Panzram when it comes to committing unforgivable crimes, but ALL of us are guilty of committing mistakes. Forgiveness is an absolute necessity to them as well for everyone make mistakes, whether intentionally or unintentionally. What are they missing? Redemption, rectification of our affairs, a chance to turn bad karma into good one. Sooner or later, they are missing an massive opportunity to cover their a**es so that karma doesn't comes around and bite them, even if they have no genuine regret or guilt about their evil.

    I am one such individual who is in DIRE NEED of God's Forgiveness and Mercy. I have committed unforgivable crimes. Unforgivable crimes that I want God to forgive and rectify by His Power and Might. I believe God have Immeasurable Power, including the Power to undo the things I did. Now, karma can make me reap the damage I have sown in other's life anytime, and I could [and should] be punished for what I've done, but God can stop it by either making it so that I never did what I did and/or through some other means by His Powers. That's my personal belief.

    In short, in my humble opinion, other's are missing a chance to not fall in the ditch they have dug for others, as karma will [surely] give them a dose of their own medicine. I don't know whether you [or others] believe in karma, but I do and I've seen it playing out right in front of my eyes more than just once with perfect precision.
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hmm. I'd say this guy does not need to ask forgiveness from others. He can let the consequences of his own actions befall on him (take responsibility for them). But needing others to forgive him I wouldn't say is realistic. What if people do forgive him, does that mean he won't keep doing crimes? Maybe the lesson should be from forgiving himself and taking responsibility to live out the consequences he dug for himself rather than getting out of that responsibility with a get out of jail free card.

    If he asked forgiveness from the loved ones he hurt, then I can see it (though not needed if there is an expectation of their loved ones accepting it). But expecting forgiveness in and of itself?

    Couldn't you learn from your mistakes and consequences of your actions by asking god to help you through it (aka not laugh at you while you're in jail) rather than expect him to forgive you so you don't internally need to suffer from your mistakes?

    Just because god doesn't forgive you and you experience the consequence for your actions doesn't mean god wouldn't love you. It just means you spiritually reap what you sow.
     
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