Do we need forgiveness?

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm coming from a less religious view since we don't share the same belief system.

I don't know if I am understanding your questions, but I'll try to answer them.

If we can never admit to ourselves that our actions break God's Law, offend Him and "dam" our spiritual progression - then we would never feel the need to ask for forgiveness and essentially never take responsibility for all of our actions.

Is there a non-religious comparison?

Are we able (using the same logic) to experience self-growth without the need to ask others for forgiveness for our own progress?

I assume we will take responsibility for our actions even when we don't ask others to forgive us because in that sense we can't expect others (and our mental health) to be dependent on other person's willing to forgive.

With god, I would have assumed that the apology and repentance would be enough to change one's ways. Asking forgiveness doesn't assure one would be forgiven but when we act (on our own part) to change our ways and apologize for our sins, god becomes someone you ask for help not someone you ask to be pardoned.

Even asking for help or forgiveness, do believers feel god has the ability to deny their wishes?

If so, I'd say asking forgiveness is fine because you don't have the expectation god (or anyone for that matter) would say yes. If not, then I see forgiveness invalidated by that expectation.

It is impossible for us to repent and change ourselves on our own. We need the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Atoning Sacrifice to do that.

This is a universal gift - or the Light of Christ - that everyone on Earth has. We use it all the time whenever we make good changes - but we cannot become "new creatures" unless we have faith in Him and repent.

Ha. On that note from above (spoke to soon). I find that odd that you feel you can't change on your own. It won't be overnight-it's a life time journey with god's help.

Without sacrifice, would believers have the motivation to change themselves? (It sounds like they feel they cannot not that they don't have the ability to change).

Even if we were able to repent and make changes on our own - we would still be considered "filthy" by the sins were committed during the time we took to make those changes - thus unable to enter into God's presence.

It's like - no matter how hard we try to clean ourselves - we just keep getting dirtier - because our hands are dirty and everything we touch becomes dirty. It takes another person who is clean to help clean us.

Spoke to soon again. I wouldn't see it that way, though. It sounds like self-fulling prophecy and not trusting yourselves that you can change with god's help not his pardon.

If you chose to jump off the cliff, god would help by holding on to the rope and you pull yourself up. But if he does the work, what have you learned from that?

How do you learn from your sins if you're always pardoned for them?

God's - or rather Jesus's "help" - which is referred to as "grace" - includes His forgiving us. Once we make a commitment to repent of our sins and do our best to change our nature - He promises to forgive us - and by so doing we become clean - and once we are clean we can begin to change our very nature.

I would say help means you still are filthy, you just need a bucket of water and a rag to clean yourself (wasn't meant how this sounds).

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

I'll try to give a reply to some of the points raised by Unveiled Artist and will reply to others later because I am all swarmed up here with other work, but here is a quick [hasty] opinion of mine on few points:

Hmm. So asking forgiveness isn't (in the godly sense) not asking to be pardoned from a sin?

So, in this sense, is there another word for forgiveness because it technically means asking for pardon rather than asking and praying for healing of those who one feels needs it. Sounds more like asking for intersession rather than forgiveness.

By the way, this makes more sense than asking for pardon if that be the case.

I think true pardon would bringing a sense of making things right by default [like sneezing causes blinking]. I think it's both asking forgiveness is both asking for pardon as well as intersession.

The first part, I'd say it depends on the person's emotional state. Sounds like a personal choice if one feels bad that he wants another to forgive him. I always thought if I came to someone I hurt and said "please forgive me" it's putting guilt on them or telling them what they "should" do (unintentionally) than letting their forgiveness come when it does or let it be if they don't.

It may be putting guilt on them, but that doesn't mean that the guilt will most likely cause them to forgive and/or some other emotions not take over rather than guilt [let's say, vengeance]. I think it depends on the true intention of the one who has caused injustice. If his/her intentions are fair and truly only seeks pardon, I don't think the unintentional guilt he is putting on the victim should make any difference.

Wouldn't Bob (I had to put names to it to understand) do that anyway without John needing to ask?

I would assume god gave you the grammar corrector before hand (jesus). So, even if you made a grammar error, he can teach you and help you with the instructions but asking his forgiveness would be unnecessary since he (as they say) already done the work for you.

I think my previous reply about God wanting us to do it out of our own freewill answers this one. Besides, I would do it anyway, but I feel like God wants us to admit and asks for forgiveness to instill sense of humility and honesty in ourselves. Like, "hey, I admit I messed it up, please forgive me my flawed nature and doings, and please make the wrong things right for you are greater than me and my mistakes."

If you ask god to get you out of suffering (spiritually), you're not suffering the consequences of your actions. Of course you can be responsible for your physical actions/your sins but if it's spiritual in nature, why wouldn't you be responsibility to suffer in that respect too?

Personally, I don't think that's necessarily true. You see, when I ask God for forgiveness, I personally feel like [and I hope I am right] that God Will Do something [out of His Infinite Power and Mercy] that'll not only undo the actions I did in the past, but only minimizes the consequence of it to complete-to-manageable extent. I am creating a new action that's balancing out the previous one and it's consequences. Forgiveness is just a way through which [I feel like] God Even things out and create equilibrium. Sort of like in that movie Back to The Future, except God is doing it instead of me.

 

[paarsurrey]

Got this from my reply on another thread:

If someone rejects the christian god (christ), are they rejecting forgiveness?

Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?

Is the need for forgiveness inherent in people (in the christian view) that they are called to ask for forgiveness? Why?

Take the motivate as ye will; just curious.

If one has sinned or one is prone to sin one needs seeking forgiveness from God-the-Father, neither from Jesus-Christian-god nor from the Holy-Ghost-Christian-god, please? Right, please?

Regards

 

[Zaha Torte]

I'm coming from a less religious view since we don't share the same belief system.

I understand it can be difficult. It's also a bit difficult for me too because I've grown up with all this stuff. It can be hard to explain sometimes.

Is there a non-religious comparison?

Sure - people have "Interventions" to help people realize that they have a problem that they are not addressing that it is destructive.

This process is effective because realizing that your behavior has negatively affected others better helps you recognize and admit that you have a problem.

It's also good to realize that even though you hurt them these people still love you and are willing to help you overcome your problem.

So the first step to admitting that we sin is to learn about God's character, our relationship to Him, His Laws and the Fall of Man.

Are we able (using the same logic) to experience self-growth without the need to ask others for forgiveness for our own progress?

Yes - we literally do this all the time through the Light of Christ. He is the Light of the world. Any change that we make that is good comes by our exercising our free will and taking advantage of the Light of Christ.

It would be better for you to try to receive forgiveness as soon as possible because that would give you the greatest gains in terms of self-growth - but you don't need forgiveness to grow.

Our sins weigh us down. Having them pile up can make life difficult. We may not even notice the effect they are having on us.

Let me be clear about the Light of Christ. I believe that without the Light of Christ nothing would exist in the physical universe. We do not realize that we rely on the Light of Christ for basically everything we have and are.

I assume we will take responsibility for our actions even when we don't ask others to forgive us because in that sense we can't expect others (and our mental health) to be dependent on other person's willing to forgive.

I believe that the most beneficial thing we can do for our mental health - in terms of forgiveness - is to forgive others.

If we forgive others - we will find peace - and it will open ourselves up to the possibility of forgiving ourselves as well as God forgiving us.

Understand that everyone will eventually be forgiven of their sins - save those who commit the unpardonable sin - which is very rare so I wouldn't worry about it.

Everyone in the world - no matter what they believe - will eventually be forgiven of their sins.

With god, I would have assumed that the apology and repentance would be enough to change one's ways.

No - the recipient needs to change their own ways. Repentance is a process where God gives to us the tools we need to better make those changes - the merits and grace of Jesus - but it is up to us to actively strive to make those changes. It's a constant glorious battle that will last even after our life in this world is over.

Asking forgiveness doesn't assure one would be forgiven but when we act (on our own part) to change our ways and apologize for our sins, god becomes someone you ask for help not someone you ask to be pardoned.

As long as we are doing our best we are assured forgiveness. Jesus is there to help us overcome as well as offer forgiveness. His Atoning Sacrifice has placed Him in the position to offer us both.

Even asking for help or forgiveness, do believers feel god has the ability to deny their wishes?

Yes - if you are living contrary to His Laws. If you are not doing your very best to follow them.

If so, I'd say asking forgiveness is fine because you don't have the expectation god (or anyone for that matter) would say yes. If not, then I see forgiveness invalidated by that expectation.

Forgiveness is assured if you are doing your best to do as God commands.

Ha. On that note from above (spoke to soon). I find that odd that you feel you can't change on your own. It won't be overnight-it's a life time journey with god's help.

Exactly - with God's help - which is the Light of Christ within us all. Everyone everywhere uses it literally all the time.

If you want to take advantage of all the resources God has given us to overcome sin and change our nature - then turn to Christ.

Without sacrifice, would believers have the motivation to change themselves? (It sounds like they feel they cannot not that they don't have the ability to change).

We literally cannot change without some kind of sacrifice. You'd need to sacrifice an unfavorable behavior in order to change it to a favorable behavior.

Spoke to soon again. I wouldn't see it that way, though. It sounds like self-fulling prophecy and not trusting yourselves that you can change with god's help not his pardon.

You can change yourself through the Light of Christ - but changing yourself does not cleanse you of your sin - it just helps you prevent committing more sins in the future.

In order to be cleansed of the sins you committed before and during the changes you made you would need Christ to forgive you.

If you chose to jump off the cliff, god would help by holding on to the rope and you pull yourself up. But if he does the work, what have you learned from that?

That's basically what I am saying. He has provided us the means to change ourselves and to be cleansed from sin - but we have to do the work.

How do you learn from your sins if you're always pardoned for them?

You have to repent of each sin. You have to go through the process. You have to fight.

If you do and learn what God wants - why can't you be forgiven? I don't get it.

I would say help means you still are filthy, you just need a bucket of water and a rag to clean yourself (wasn't meant how this sounds).

Then consider the Atonement of Christ as the bucket of water and rag.

Without what He did for us - you'd have nothing but your dirty self.

 

[capumetu]

Got this from my reply on another thread:

If someone rejects the christian god (christ), are they rejecting forgiveness?

Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?

Is the need for forgiveness inherent in people (in the christian view) that they are called to ask for forgiveness? Why?

Take the motivate as ye will; just curious.

Only if you want everlasting life sir.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Got this from my reply on another thread:

If someone rejects the christian god (christ), are they rejecting forgiveness?

Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?

Is the need for forgiveness inherent in people (in the christian view) that they are called to ask for forgiveness? Why?

Take the motivate as ye will; just curious.

You dont have to be religious to be able to forgive Someone or to be forgiven by someone.

You know your self if you should ask for forgivness or forgive someone

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You dont have to be religious to be able to forgive Someone or to be forgiven by someone.

You know your self if you should ask for forgivness or forgive someone

Edit to rephrase.

It is a life long learning experience. There is no such thing as someone already awakened, but rather the experience of learning/the awakening process, rather, is the key. Personally, I'm learning there is no end goal though my culture tends to think in those regards-good job, retirement, eternal life, etc.

I'd say forgiveness is part of the process (the cycle) not an end goal or a step towards it. For example, if I were skating in circles (roller skating rink), I'd be more concerned with developing my moves until the music stops which could be any time. Once the music stops, I have no where to go (some people stay on the floor because they haven't realized the music has already stopped). The purpose is to be in a state of learning not in the state of accomplishment. I think that's why in the Buddha's Dharma he talks about present actions and present results and makes no reference to afterlife-present action, future results; there is no such thing.

On the other hand, if someone prepared for a race, they perfect their moves (as well) until/to get to the finish line. Their end goal is to get to heaven, or so have you by how they live on earth. I'd say forgiveness, in this case, is one of the lessons to prepare one to get to the finish line rather than a fixed state of forgiveness without a goal or trajectory.

If you mean religious as a tradition, I agree. People don't need that for either practice. If you mean religion as a spiritual practice, I believe all people need that including myself. Spiritual practice is being in the state of gratitude. We can find that in following our core values, taking care of our family, and prayer as a practice in and of itself.

Forgiveness (in the former) can be one of the moves to be experienced until the music stops and we die. Forgiveness (in the latter) can be lessons to get to perfection when one gets to the finish line.

I like this quote: “Just because my path is different, doesn’t mean I’m lost”