Do we need forgiveness?

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Hmm. I'd say this guy does not need to ask forgiveness from others. He can let the consequences of his own actions befall on him (take responsibility for them). But needing others to forgive him I wouldn't say is realistic.

Well, I personally feel he [and all of us] needs to ask for forgiveness both to God and to God's creatures he has wronged. When it comes to seeking forgiveness, I don't think it's necessarily for one's own self, but rather, those who have been wronged. We need to ask for God's Forgiveness as well as the forgiveness of those who we have harmed for their healing, for their well-being, to recompense for whatever loss they have suffered, to give them justice, to make the wrong things right. Asking for forgiveness may not only just minimize the hurt and bitterness others are feeling, but we can also offer something to compensate the damage.

Take this for example --- What if a certain individual, who punched someone and broke their nose, genuinely asks the victim to forgive him and in return he will give them [something like, for example] a high-paying job and/or a car and/or any recompensation that'll satisfy the victim with the greatest satisfaction?

What if people do forgive him, does that mean he won't keep doing crimes?

Not necessarily, but at least those who are wronged achieves justice and peace.

If he asked forgiveness from the loved ones he hurt, then I can see it (though not needed if there is an expectation of their loved ones accepting it). But expecting forgiveness in and of itself?

Hmmm. I took a bit time trying to write a response to this [maybe because I feel like I am misunderstanding you]. I personally believe that seeking forgiveness from both God and people are necessary [for the reasons I gave]. I don't think expecting forgiveness in and of itself is not needed [or even realistic] from people, but expecting forgiveness from God is needed. People are inherently irrational, weak, frail, imperfect and have lots of short-comings, but the same isn't about God. As a believer in God, I feel like God is too powerful. He is capable of doing a lot which is beyond our comprehension, such as changing our past, past sins and making it as if they never happened in the first place. Think about it this way, the power writers have over respective fictional stories. They can easily retcon whatever event that has happened and give a new story to any character. They have power over their universe. I personally believe God have similar [and even greater] power over our world, our lives and all of us. God can undo our past and give us a new blank slate for our own redemption, to give us a whole new, untainted beginning in life [and also afterlife]. So seeking God's Forgiveness is absolutely needed, for even the smallest mistakes we make.

Maybe the lesson should be from forgiving himself and taking responsibility to live out the consequences he dug for himself rather than getting out of that responsibility with a get out of jail free card.

It's not about getting out of the responsibility of facing the consequences of our actions, it's about ending the evil actions we started along with it's consequences so we get a chance to live a new life free from that dark past. It's not about getting out of jail free card, it's about getting out of jail after undoing the damage one has done to other.

Think about it this way, imagine a guy who has murdered someone and is in jail for that. Now, he is truly regretful for what he has done. Now, imagine another figure there who have this [hypothetical] supernatural powers to bring people back to life/healings/etc. and he is also extremely rich with multiple successful businesses world-wide. Now, if our imaginary murderer convince this supernatural figure of our to bring the person he has killed to life and to give him a business, and he ends up doing just that, such that our victim is not only brought back to life but recompensed with so much that it satisfies him with greatest satisfaction, the murderer has wash the stains off his clothes. He gets a chance to live a new life after getting out of jail, a life free from the evil consequences of his past actions.

Couldn't you learn from your mistakes and consequences of your actions by asking god to help you through it (aka not laugh at you while you're in jail) rather than expect him to forgive you so you don't internally need to suffer from your mistakes?

We can, but do we have to? Why allow yourself to unnecessarily suffer when God is so Powerful to clean any mess you made? Why allow myself to go through the troubles of being considered grammatically inept when I have simply program my wordpad to have an in-built grammar corrector in it that'll correct all the mistakes I make?

I am not saying we shouldn't suffer for our mistakes, we should. Suffering the consequences of our evil and facing justice is must, but so is making the wrong things right. We can do both. BOTH are needed.

 

[Salty Booger]

True. It kinda falters when its assumed others need forgiveness from christ because the christian needs it. I don't believe that's what forgiveness is about. Maybe more humbleness in where people are at and accept that people know what's good for themselves whether it be christ or not.

I believe the idea is that Christ died so that you might be forgiven and forgive. As for twisting someone's arm, I don't believe that is an effective method.

 

[1213]

...
Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?
....

If person has done something wrong, for example lied, he has done wrongly and needs forgiveness. If person has not done anything wrong, but has always loved others as told in the Bible, there is no need for forgiveness.

But, does one have to feel he needs that, I don’t think it is necessary. I think it is just something that a righteous person would do, when he knows he has done wrongly. And as the Bible tells, eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Got this from my reply on another thread:

If someone rejects the christian god (christ), are they rejecting forgiveness?

Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?

Is the need for forgiveness inherent in people (in the christian view) that they are called to ask for forgiveness? Why?

Take the motivate as ye will; just curious.

Forgiveness is nice and all but the victim is the only one who gets to do it and if they don’t, we should still try to be better anyway.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I don't need forgiveness. I would like to be punished for my sins if I commit them

To me, too much forgiveness removes the motivation to be better. Why stop sinning if you’re never called out?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, I personally feel he [and all of us] needs to ask for forgiveness both to God and to God's creatures he has wronged. When it comes to seeking forgiveness, I don't think it's necessarily for one's own self, but rather, those who have been wronged. We need to ask for God's Forgiveness as well as the forgiveness of those who we have harmed for their healing, for their well-being, to recompense for whatever loss they have suffered, to give them justice, to make the wrong things right. Asking for forgiveness may not only just minimize the hurt and bitterness others are feeling, but we can also offer something to compensate the damage.

Hmm. So asking forgiveness isn't (in the godly sense) not asking to be pardoned from a sin?

So, in this sense, is there another word for forgiveness because it technically means asking for pardon rather than asking and praying for healing of those who one feels needs it. Sounds more like asking for intersession rather than forgiveness.

By the way, this makes more sense than asking for pardon if that be the case.

Take this for example --- What if a certain individual, who punched someone and broke their nose, genuinely asks the victim to forgive him and in return he will give them [something like, for example] a high-paying job and/or a car and/or any recompensation that'll satisfy the victim with the greatest satisfaction?

The first part, I'd say it depends on the person's emotional state. Sounds like a personal choice if one feels bad that he wants another to forgive him. I always thought if I came to someone I hurt and said "please forgive me" it's putting guilt on them or telling them what they "should" do (unintentionally) than letting their forgiveness come when it does or let it be if they don't.

The second part, I would hope he wouldn't expect a high-paying job because he asked forgiveness. I would say that expectation kind of invalidates the choice the other person would make if he wanted to forgive. If he does not, it would hurt the person who asked but is it wrong of him to not do so?

Not necessarily, but at least those who are wronged achieves justice and peace.

The wronged would receive that if they asked god for help for healing. I wouldn't think it's the criminal's responsibility (and the wronged expectation) for him to forgive his victims so they'd feel justice and peace. They'd receive that from god. I'd say ask god for healing and support if one sins not ask for his forgiveness.

1. Hmmm. I took a bit time trying to write a response to this [maybe because I feel like I am misunderstanding you]. I personally believe that seeking forgiveness from both God and people are necessary [for the reasons I gave]. I don't think expecting forgiveness in and of itself is not needed [or even realistic] from people, but expecting forgiveness from God is needed.

2. People are inherently irrational, weak, frail, imperfect and have lots of short-comings, but the same isn't about God. As a believer in God, I feel like God is too powerful. He is capable of doing a lot which is beyond our comprehension, such as changing our past, past sins and making it as if they never happened in the first place.

3. Think about it this way, the power writers have over respective fictional stories. They can easily retcon whatever event that has happened and give a new story to any character. They have power over their universe. I personally believe God have similar [and even greater] power over our world, our lives and all of us.

4. God can undo our past and give us a new blank slate for our own redemption, to give us a whole new, untainted beginning in life [and also afterlife]. So seeking God's Forgiveness is absolutely needed, for even the smallest mistakes we make.

1. I don't see the difference between asking forgiveness from people and from god in that it's not letting the person or god decide whether to forgive (which I'm sure the latter would have anyway), but, by intention and action, you're (the person) is expecting the person and god to accept their forgiveness "because" they asked. If one has wronged god, he would apologize. Asking for forgiveness would lend to expectation of being forgiven in return. Letting god forgive "in his own timing" would be best just as one would let person who wronged forgive. Though I'm not sure how a believer would notice god's forgiveness but asking for it (and to anyone) sounds contrary to letting god do his thing.

2 and 3. I'm not familiar with god's nature (or god as a being even) to where he would be all powerful. That has always confused me.

4. It makes more sense to me to ask his help and support and let him choose to forgive. What if he said no?

It's not about getting out of the responsibility of facing the consequences of our actions, it's about ending the evil actions we started along with it's consequences so we get a chance to live a new life free from that dark past. It's not about getting out of jail free card, it's about getting out of jail after undoing the damage one has done to other.

You can do that with his help without the need to be forgiven. Letting him call the shots and saying thank you or I'm sorry. Someone obedient to god (as a slave) would not ask something of god but let god work through him and being grateful and humble for god's grace (how do they say, unmerited favor). The idea is you didn't ask for grace, but he gave it to you. So, why ask over again when he has ideally already forgave you without your asking anyway?

Now that I think of it, he has already forgiven believers. Wouldn't asking for it be redundant? Thank you and sorry would make sense instead.

Think about it this way, imagine a guy (John) who has murdered someone and is in jail for that. Now, he is truly regretful for what he has done. Now, imagine another figure (Bob) there who have this [hypothetical] supernatural powers to bring people back to life/healings/etc. and Bob is also extremely rich with multiple successful businesses world-wide.

Now, if our imaginary murderer (John) convince this supernatural figure (bob) of our to bring the person he has killed to life and to give him a business, and he ends up doing just that, such that our victim is not only brought back to life but recompensed with so much that it satisfies him with greatest satisfaction, the murderer has wash the stains off his clothes. He gets a chance to live a new life after getting out of jail, a life free from the evil consequences of his past actions.

Wouldn't Bob (I had to put names to it to understand) do that anyway without John needing to ask?

We can, but do we have to? Why allow yourself to unnecessarily suffer when God is so Powerful to clean any mess you made? Why allow myself to go through the troubles of being considered grammatically inept when I have simply program my wordpad to have an in-built grammar corrector in it that'll correct all the mistakes I make?

(I work from top to bottom to read everything, so if it overlaps above, that's why.)

That's what I mean by "get out of jail free." Suffering is the consequence for one's actions, so it would be better to ask for help while suffering not ask to get out of suffering by asking forgiveness.

I'd say it was your choice to "allow yourself" to suffer once you have sinned.

I would assume god gave you the grammar corrector before hand (jesus). So, even if you made a grammar error, he can teach you and help you with the instructions but asking his forgiveness would be unnecessary since he (as they say) already done the work for you.

I am not saying we shouldn't suffer for our mistakes, we should. Suffering the consequences of our evil and facing justice is must, but so is making the wrong things right. We can do both. BOTH are needed.

If you ask god to get you out of suffering (spiritually), you're not suffering the consequences of your actions. Of course you can be responsible for your physical actions/your sins but if it's spiritual in nature, why wouldn't you be responsibility to suffer in that respect too?

 

[Kenny]

Do you believe we need forgiveness-there is an inherent need for someone to forgive us if we have wrong them?

Almost like if I stepped on your toe and instead of making amends saying I'm sorry, I'm waiting for you to forgive me for my "sin."



That, I don't understand (or am I off with the words). I'd say if you did wrong to someone else, you'd mend the relationship by apologizing. It would be nice to receive forgiveness from the other person, but in my opinion, we can't depend on others to do what we feel they should do. Too much expectations.

Instead of asking forgiveness, would it be best to apologize to god without expecting forgiveness in return?

The expectation of forgiveness seems to invalidate the "grace" or charity given to you. Just as expecting a homeless person to use what's given to him for food and withdrawing the same charity if he (you assume) spends it for something else.

Do you believe intentions and expectations invalidate accepting other people's forgiveness?



Forgiving others, I agree. Expecting to be forgiven, I disagree.

Actually, you are right in so many aspects. I guess I was writing in context of God and myself.

You are correct.... Expect to be forgiven by another person (if you asked for forgiveness) is irrelevant. Expected, maybe if you are a Christian, but no a requirement... that is between the other person and his/her God/gods.

That the words "forgiven" has a healing power? I believe so.

Apologize, yes. I think that asking "forgiveness", whether or not they do so, should still be part of the process.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Got this from my reply on another thread:

If someone rejects the christian god (christ), are they rejecting forgiveness?

Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?

Is the need for forgiveness inherent in people (in the christian view) that they are called to ask for forgiveness? Why?

Take the motivate as ye will; just curious.

It's just like with anything. You first need to admit to yourself that you have problem before you can ever begin to address it. If you are convinced that you are not in need of forgiveness - then you won't receive it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's just like with anything. You first need to admit to yourself that you have problem before you can ever begin to address it. If you are convinced that you are not in need of forgiveness - then you won't receive it.

Why would one want to receive forgiveness from others when one can forgive oneself (when one addresses the problem)?

Receive forgiveness from oneself not others.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Why would one want to receive forgiveness from others when one can forgive oneself (when one addresses the problem)?

Receive forgiveness from oneself not others.

I believe that we need both. If someone commits a crime they also need to receive forgiveness from the State - not just themselves.

We need forgiveness from God when we commit sin because we are breaking His Laws when we commit the sin.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Actually, you are right in so many aspects. I guess I was writing in context of God and myself.

You are correct.... Expect to be forgiven by another person (if you asked for forgiveness) is irrelevant. Expected, maybe if you are a Christian, but no a requirement... that is between the other person and his/her God/gods.

That the words "forgiven" has a healing power? I believe so.

Apologize, yes. I think that asking "forgiveness", whether or not they do so, should still be part of the process.

In a christian sense, why would one ask forgiveness if they've already receive it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe that we need both. If someone commits a crime they also need to receive forgiveness from the State - not just themselves.

We need forgiveness from God when we commit sin because we are breaking His Laws when we commit the sin.

Would it be right to ask forgiveness of the court?

No one can't change the law as the defendant and assuming god doesn't change his mind, no one could change god's decisions either. The law and god's decisions are already set.

If jesus was your defense lawyer, why would you ask him to get you out of jail rather than suffer from the consequence of your actions?

Do you feel god won't love you if you didn't ask him for forgiveness thereby taking your responsibility for your sins with him at your side?

 

[Kenny]

In a christian sense, why would one ask forgiveness if they've already receive it?

Don't understand... unless this is the application.

The heart of asking forgiveness is based on repentance, otherwise it is lip service. They are conjoined twins.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

I'd give my personal opinion in detail on the topic later on as I have to take a nap for now, but I'd like to talk about one thing before going:

In a christian sense, why would one ask forgiveness if they've already receive it?

Although I am not a Christian, so I don't know if my view counts. However, I'd like to point out that there are many who don't want to receive forgiveness. Take Satan, for example. He is hell-bent on being evil and doing evil. Now, I don't know whether God has [or will] forgiven him, but even if he has forgiven him, perhaps God wants Satan to receive forgiveness out of his own freewill. Same with us. If I have to make a wild guess, I'd say asking forgiveness is a necessity so we can receive it due to our own freewill rather than God's Generosity. It's about God already opened the door for us, and is waiting for us to walk through it by our own freewill.

I will talk more about this later, just tired as hell right now.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Would it be right to ask forgiveness of the court?

No one can't change the law as the defendant and assuming god doesn't change his mind, no one could change god's decisions either. The law and god's decisions are already set.

If jesus was your defense lawyer, why would you ask him to get you out of jail rather than suffer from the consequence of your actions?

Do you feel god won't love you if you didn't ask him for forgiveness thereby taking your responsibility for your sins with him at your side?

God loves us regardless of what we do. He is the perfect parent.

Jesus is like our defense lawyer as well as our judge.

He has already taken upon Himself the punishment for your sins and by so doing making it possible for you to avoid said punishment.

If we do not seek forgiveness and repent of our sins then we will need to also suffer the punishment for our sins.

Both Jesus and you would receive punishment. Basically being fined twice for the same crime.

Also - the other main reason you want to receive forgiveness rather than suffer it is because the punishment does not cleanse you from sin.

It would be like going to prison for a crime you committed and you then refusing to reform and you come out the other side just as bad as you went in.

God cannot abide sin. So if you refuse forgiveness - you won't be allowed to enter His presence even after suffering the punishments for your sins.

Jesus could suffer for our sins and come out completely clean and pure because He Himself never once committed any sin.

All sins will be forgiven eventually - but when you are forgiven will determine how and where you spend eternity.

 

[osgart]

Fabricated forgiveness isn't the answer to those needing forgiveness. The real question is about genuine change for the right reasons. If I hurt someone can I make up for it and am I genuinely a changed person. What's the way forward that is productive.

If there is no power of genuine change and I'm still doing wrong, though lesser and lesser wrongs they may be, is forgiveness the answer and is that power real. The utmost heart of intention is where the change needs take place. Good intentions with informed true understandings will lead to good actions.

Even if I can't make up for wrongs done I still must find the road to true peace in changing myself.

I do believe we make ourselves to be who we are. For lack of true insight, and determination there are wayward paths.

It's almost like a person has to sit down with one's self and decide who they are going to be.

Even having all the right answers the heart has to have the utmost desire to do it, or no change will happen.

In Christianity people say Christ has done it, all they need to do is accept it. Christ would be the victory and I Still must have the heart to accept it. But is that a real power, and a real mercy? Or total disillusionment?

I think people need to take the education of their own informed experience to decide what is real there. Or just blindly accept what the Bible says. I have never found any power nor presence, and no clear guidance and knowledge from it. And I know people who need not to be forgiven.

I think people who are really Christians have had powerful life changing experiences, and they are convinced from that. They tend to expect that everybody else has the opportunity of those experiences or they are liars.

Then there are the Christians who go through all the motions of that faith and believe on the basis of the Bible alone. They look at things through only the lenses of the Bible. And they may live lives sheltered from any experience or opposition contrary to it.

I suppose there are all kinds of christian affiliations.

But I decided that I must see what's true and real for myself. Revelation and a powerful presence are nothing that I have ever experienced. So my reality says for many reasons that Christian forgiveness is fabricated.

 

[74x12]

Got this from my reply on another thread:

If someone rejects the christian god (christ), are they rejecting forgiveness?

Why would someone need to feel they should be forgiven?

Is the need for forgiveness inherent in people (in the christian view) that they are called to ask for forgiveness? Why?

Take the motivate as ye will; just curious.

Yes, we have to admit we need forgiveness.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, we have to admit we need forgiveness.

Cant we forgive ourselves?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we do not seek forgiveness and repent of our sins then we will need to also suffer the punishment for our sins.

That would mean you don't take responsibility for your actions?

Also - the other main reason you want to receive forgiveness rather than suffer it is because the punishment does not cleanse you from sin.

It would be like going to prison for a crime you committed and you then refusing to reform and you come out the other side just as bad as you went in.

That would mean god doesn't believe you can repent and change yourself because you received and experienced the consequence of your actions?

Do you feel all christians can't reform by themselves with god's "help" rather than his forgiveness?

 

[Zaha Torte]

That would mean you don't take responsibility for your actions?





That would mean god doesn't believe you can repent and change yourself because you received and experienced the consequence of your actions?

Do you feel all christians can't reform by themselves with god's "help" rather than his forgiveness?

I don't know if I am understanding your questions, but I'll try to answer them.

If we can never admit to ourselves that our actions break God's Law, offend Him and "dam" our spiritual progression - then we would never feel the need to ask for forgiveness and essentially never take responsibility for all of our actions.

It is impossible for us to repent and change ourselves on our own. We need the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His Atoning Sacrifice to do that.

This is a universal gift - or the Light of Christ - that everyone on Earth has. We use it all the time whenever we make good changes - but we cannot become "new creatures" unless we have faith in Him and repent.

Even if we were able to repent and make changes on our own - we would still be considered "filthy" by the sins were committed during the time we took to make those changes - thus unable to enter into God's presence.

It's like - no matter how hard we try to clean ourselves - we just keep getting dirtier - because our hands are dirty and everything we touch becomes dirty. It takes another person who is clean to help clean us.

God's - or rather Jesus's "help" - which is referred to as "grace" - includes His forgiving us. Once we make a commitment to repent of our sins and do our best to change our nature - He promises to forgive us - and by so doing we become clean - and once we are clean we can begin to change our very nature.