Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion?

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing?

I've seen several threads with you posting in them, and haven't seen an example of anybody being abusive to you. You write as if it happens to you in every thread in which you participate.

I'm an atheist, and therefore have no religion. If they want to question my atheism, I have no problem with that. There is nothing to debate. I don't believe any god claims, and I see no evidence of gods. Being a rational skeptic, that is, one who questions all received "wisdom" and requires evidence before believing, there is only one possible position to hold - unbelief (I use the word to mean a lack of belief in gods and an agnostic attitude about their existence, and the word disbelief to mean a claim that no gods exist.)

The way I would say is that it happens more with religions that are safe targets for abusive behavior.

Can you provide an example of such abusive language directed at you.

To most people it would be outrageous for someone to continually call attention to another person’s race and make defamatory remarks about it, in discussions where their race is not the topic. Yet that happens routinely with some groups and categories defined by beliefs, without anyone even noticing. Some examples are “Abrahamics,” “fundies,” and “creationists.”

You object to those terms? They're descriptive and neutral. Your religion is one of the Abrahamic religions. Fundie is short for fundamentalist, a particular kind of theist. Creationists are people that believe the universe was created by a supernatural intelligent designer. Is this what you mean by abusive language?

Sometimes people who pride themselves on their progressiveness and tolerance will deny or excuse any amount of hatefulness towards people they call “fundies” or “creationists.”

Sorry, but you haven't made a case for the use of that language being intolerant.

Of course scientism is a religion. That is when the a priori assumptions taken before looking at the data not inherent to the scientific method but inherent to humanism are taken by faith. In that case it probably has more to do with atheists and scientism adherents don't realize they are 'waking by faith'

I reject faith. Faith cannot possibly be a path to truth. How can a method that equally well allows one to believe either of two mutually exclusive ideas be a path to truth when we know that at least one is wrong?

Faith is not a path at all, in the sense of a road that constrains one's direction of travel in order to deliver one to a desired destination, truth in this case.

Reason can be a path to truth, such as when adding a column of numbers and arriving at a correct sum. One is constrained by facts like 2 + 2 = 4, and one must decide 4 whenever adding 2 and 2, or go off the path to one's destination, the correct sum.

This is what faith looks like:

• “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa

This is not a path to truth. In fact, faith is more like sailing the open ocean to reach a desired destination without a compass. One is free to go in any direction and end up at any destination, most being somewhere you didn't want to be at, like a wrong answer.

My beliefs are all evidence based. My respect for science (by which I mean rational, empirical study of physical reality even if not done by a scientist or in a laboratory or observatory, including what we do here) as the only legitimate means of arriving at useful knowledge about the world. What is my evidence that this is the only valid means of inquiry about truth? How about the brilliant success of the scientific method and the failure of all competing approaches?

I'll leave the walking with faith part to you. It didn't work for me. Not surprisingly, I made mistakes with long-lasting consequences that I would not have made had I used reason and evidence to make important decisions instead. It involved a foolish marriage to someone not well suited for me. I fixed that, and have been happily remarried for 30 years now, this time not trusting in "the Spirit" to protect me.

These folks tend to turn every discussion into a fight with religion because that's what they came here to do.

I see it the other way around. It's the theists fighting the atheists.

Who is starting all of these threads to demean atheists? It's not atheists. Those are the only threads on RF where I demean religion. Here's the latest - Does having religious beliefs make a person more moral than someone who is an atheist

And here's another from the day before - Why are some atheists so obsessed with "imminent death"?

These threads were started by insecure theists intending to demean atheists to validate themselves or to please their god, who must be just as insecure if that's what it wants. They simply don't like us for being atheists. Show me examples of atheists doing that.

I only engage theists as they engage us when in these threads. I see each as an opportunity - no, an invitation - to tell these people what's wrong with their religions. Elsewhere, I only tell them why it's not right for me, but on these threads, I tell them why it's not right for them, either, nor anybody else, and why the world would be better if their religion just disappeared from it.

if their view conflicts with science, so long as it doesn't affect me or others, I will let them believe what they will

If their view conflicts with science, then you have no means to reach them anyway.

• "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic? Water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. What if someone says, "Well, that's not how I choose to think about water"? All we can do is appeal to scientific values. And if he doesn't share those values, the conversation is over." - Sam Harris

 

[QuestioningMind]

Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing? I see that happening to Baha’is a lot, and I’m wondering if it happens to other people too.

Care to provide an example? Like many other's responding, I rarely if ever see people posting about subjects that don't have to do with religion who then have people trying to turn it into a debate about the OPs religion.

 

[Jim]

I've seen several threads with you posting in them, and haven't seen an example of anybody being abusive to you. You write as if it happens to you in every thread in which you participate.

When I said that it happens a lot to Baha’is, I didn’t mean that it happens in every thread, and I didn’t mean that it happens a lot to me personally.

Can you provide an example of such abusive language directed at you.

Not abusive language. Abusive behavior. Calling attention to a person’s religion and saying defamatory things about it, in multiple threads where that is not the topic of discussion. I’m not trying to convince anyone that it happens. I was wondering if anyone else sees it happening, and if it happens more with some religions than with others.

You object to those terms?

I do when they’re used pejoratively, but using those labels was not what I meant by “abusive behavior.” What I meant was calling attention to a person’s religion and saying defamatory things about it, in multiple threads where that is not the topic of discussion.

Your religion is one of the Abrahamic religions. Fundie is short for fundamentalist, a particular kind of theist. Creationists are people that believe the universe was created by a supernatural intelligent designer. Is this what you mean by abusive language?

No, and I wasn’t talking about abusive language. I was talking about abusive behavior. Calling attention to a person’s religion and saying defamatory things about it, in multiple threads where that is not the topic of discussion.

I reject faith. Faith cannot possibly be a path to truth. How can a method that equally well allows one to believe either of two mutually exclusive ideas be a path to truth when we know that at least one is wrong?

Faith is not a path at all, in the sense of a road that constrains one's direction of travel in order to deliver one to a desired destination, truth in this case.

Reason can be a path to truth, such as when adding a column of numbers and arriving at a correct sum. One is constrained by facts like 2 + 2 = 4, and one must decide 4 whenever adding 2 and 2, or go off the path to one's destination, the correct sum.

This is what faith looks like:

• “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa

This is not a path to truth. In fact, faith is more like sailing the open ocean to reach a desired destination without a compass. One is free to go in any direction and end up at any destination, most being somewhere you didn't want to be at, like a wrong answer.

My beliefs are all evidence based. My respect for science (by which I mean rational, empirical study of physical reality even if not done by a scientist or in a laboratory or observatory, including what we do here) as the only legitimate means of arriving at useful knowledge about the world. What is my evidence that this is the only valid means of inquiry about truth? How about the brilliant success of the scientific method and the failure of all competing approaches?

I'll leave the walking with faith part to you. It didn't work for me. Not surprisingly, I made mistakes with long-lasting consequences that I would not have made had I used reason and evidence to make important decisions instead. It involved a foolish marriage to someone not well suited for me. I fixed that, and have been happily remarried for 30 years now, this time not trusting in "the Spirit" to protect me.

Okay. If you want to discuss faith and atheism with me, we can, but not in this thread.

Who is starting all of these threads to demean atheists? It's not atheists. Those are the only threads on RF where I demean religion. ... I only engage theists as they engage us when in these threads. I see each as an opportunity - no, an invitation - to tell these people what's wrong with their religions.

I wasn’t accusing you personally of doing what I was saying, and I wasn’t denying that it happens to atheists. I would be surprised if it doesn’t.

 

[Jim]

Care to provide an example? Like many other's responding, I rarely if ever see people posting about subjects that don't have to do with religion who then have people trying to turn it into a debate about the OPs religion.

You call two “many”?

I’m not trying to convince anyone that it happens. I was wondering if anyone else sees it happening, and if it happens more with some religions than with others.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was wondering if anyone else sees it happening

Wonder no longer I have seen it many times across many posts. There is no doubt others would have seen it as well.

Regards Tony

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Yes and I'm usually the one to start it. Mostly it's because they say something very illogical and can't remain silent.

 

[QuestioningMind]

You call two “many”?

I’m not trying to convince anyone that it happens. I was wondering if anyone else sees it happening, and if it happens more with some religions than with others.

And now you have THREE people stating that no, they don't see it happening and then asking YOU if you can provide an example of it happening. Yet you keep refusing to provide one. If you don't have such an example, why are you asking if anyone else sees it happening?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing? I see that happening to Baha’is a lot, and I’m wondering if it happens to other people too.

I don't see any of that from normal discussion.

What I do see however is a lot of of people turning their religion into a proselytizing campaign.

 

[stvdv]

Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing? I see that happening to Baha’is a lot, and I’m wondering if it happens to other people too.

No, they never do this to me. But probably because I don't see my Spiritual View better or less than theirs. The moment you think "My way is the highway", you are cooked. You don't even have to say it out loud. People have a sixth sense to this, they easily read it in between the lines.

I came to RF to find out about Bahai, because I read 1 book of Bahaullah I liked, but the Bahai followers in Holland were very belittling to other Religions (they said all Religions are good, but you need finally accept Bahai as the latest and most accurate to "make it"), which I found strange after reading Bahaullah's Book. So I wanted to check out if it was just the Dutch Bahai. I asked Adrian very specific about this and Tony also. And they assured me, that they do not think this way. For me that is enough, as I trust them. But I have seen others who don't have that trust towards Bahai.

 

[stvdv]

To most people it would be outrageous for someone to continually call attention to another person’s race and make defamatory remarks about it, in discussions where their race is not the topic. Yet that happens routinely with some groups and categories defined by beliefs, without anyone even noticing. Some examples are “Abrahamics,” “fundies,” and “creationists.”

IMHO:
A Religion who tells it's members to evangelize, are the only cause that this "turn into debate about Religion" happens
And that is very simple to prove. If a Religious person says "My Guru (e.g. Jesus or Muhammad) is the only way to reach Nirwana (heaven)" then they commit blasphemy towards all other people's feelings and (non) faith. That is worse then kicking someone in the face or the gut; it's hurting the other at the deepest level (your soul, feeling, like hitting the other's 'soul-er' plexus). Because your (non)faith is your personal feeling. Belittling this feeling is the worst of sin. Such 'Religious' person has ZERO respect towards others' feeling

So before discussing anything else, first you MUST "turn it into debate about their Religion". Because first there MUST be mutual respect.

I have seen Bahai making effort recently to clear this misconception about Bahai, that is a good thing. Evangelizing has to be rooted out first, before I speak to people who believe in evangelizing to be good, or who evangelize. Because if I talk to them, I give them respect and if they think I go to Hell, then by talking to them, I thereby allow them to take away my Self Respect. People who belittle my (non) faith are not worth any of my attention, because they see me as worthless on highest level (soul)

Spoiler: Evangelizing to me means:

People who belittle other (non) faith. Who arrogantly think they are better. e.g. "You go to Hell, because...". Or "Hindus still need Bahaullah, because their Guru or Faith is inferior",

 

[exchemist]

Care to provide an example? Like many other's responding, I rarely if ever see people posting about subjects that don't have to do with religion who then have people trying to turn it into a debate about the OPs religion.

The only arena in which I can envisage this is when a religious pseudoscience is being promoted as if it is a legitimate scientific topic.

If somebody starts a thread purporting to be about science, but actually promoting, say, creationism, people are likely to point out, quite rightly, that it is not science but religion dressed up as science.

 

[Jim]

Evangelizing has to be rooted out first, before I speak to people who believe in evangelizing to be good, or who evangelize.

Then there’s something you might want to know about me, before you talk to me any more.

Question for all Baha’is: What is the Baha’i Faith to you?

 

[stvdv]

Then there’s something you might want to know about me, before you talk to me any more.

Question for all Baha’is: What is the Baha’i Faith to you?

Thank you for the clear reply

You phrased it as your opinion, starting with "I think". Thereby not belittling other (non) faith explicitly.

When I think of evangelizing, I only mean people who belittle other (non) faith. Who arrogantly think they are better. e.g. "You go to Hell, because...". Or "Hindus still need Bahaullah, because their Guru or Faith is inferior".

You did not make any such hard claim as far as I have seen

 

[Jim]

My topic in this thread is people calling attention to a person’s religion and saying defamatory things about it, in multiple threads where it is not the topic of discussion. I was wondering if other people were seeing it, and if it happens more with some religions than with others. I‘ve seen answers to both questions. I’ve also seen some people denying that it happens, and other people making lame excuses for it. One idea I have for people when they see it happening to them is to ignore it and stay on topic.

 

[Jim]

Another idea for people, when they see people posting off topic, calling attention to their religion and defaming it, if you can’t resist the temptation to go off topic yourself defending it, at least try to resist the temptation to respond with counterattacks.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing? I see that happening to Baha’is a lot, and I’m wondering if it happens to other people too.

There are some lovely seekers and lurkers on RF, there are also skeptics, and some Christians like me, who debate, to learn at times and simply to be provocative at times.

 

[Katzpur]

There are certain people on this forum who never miss a chance to take a swipe at Mormonism. It doesn't matter what the thread topic is, if I so much as make one comment, they hop on their soap box and start bad-mouthing my religion. They know who they are.

 

[nPeace]

Do people often turn discussions that you’re in into debates about your religion, no matter what topic you’re discussing? I see that happening to Baha’is a lot, and I’m wondering if it happens to other people too.

Yes.

 

[nPeace]

No. Nor do I think that is happening anywhere on the forum.

It does.

 

[nPeace]

Then you think that would be a reportable offense. That answers my question. Thank you. From now on I will report it when I see it.

Hmmm.
Regarding @SalixIncendium's comment.... or religions whose views stand in opposition to or conflict with science.
I agree with you Jim, that's not the issue, and there is no need to derail the topic, to target the poster, or the poster's religious beliefs, rather than debate the poster's comments... but it happens, not only to Bahais.
Once certain posters become aware, that someone is a JW, they target the religion, and the group as a whole, rather than the poster's comments... especially, when it relates to the theory of evolution.
I decided to follow your lead.